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The Reapers' motives aren't actually that silly


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#151
Vortex13

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Because you are Space Jesus. You also have to decide whether to save the Council or not, which for some obscure reason Hacket can't do.

 

Well I really wished I could have used my Space Jesus powers in ME 3 when I freed the Rachni Queen a second time. I mean what kind of idiot places the Rachni on engineering detail for the Crucible?

 

 The Rachni who gave the Council a run for their money, and were almost a match for the Krogan in combat? The Rachni that can breed an army of combat capable soldiers in a matter of weeks instead of years; unlike the Krogan? The Rachni that are highly resistant to borderline immune to indoctrination ( why else would the Reapers have the Queen in shackles if they could control her)?

 

"Yeah, let's not have them help us in ground combat or anything, we'll just leave them at the Crucible." Where's my Renegade interrupt so I can throat punch the moron that decided that was a good idea?



#152
Farangbaa

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Apparantly they have a knack for WMDs.



#153
Obadiah

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@78stonewobble
1) I don't think anyone, (myself, other posters, or the Catalyst), was talking about doing anything in the entire universe everywhere. The Catalyst speaks of preventing the destruction of "all organics", however its current solution of the Reaper cycle only covers the Milky Way. Any solution we pick in the Decision Chamber only covers the Milky Way. Therefore, I think that the "all organics" it is trying to save is limited to the Milky Way. That's the context in which I've been discussing this.

2) You've brought up the rest of the universe. Interesting, but you're missing the whole point of how or why Synthetics might destroy all Organics (even in the entire universe). Synthetics don't need a "wish" to commit genocide, or have a secret agenda for it to happen. They may do it as collateral damage (as I said in the next post I made after the one you originally quoted) as Destroy did in the Milky Way.

Just to combine the my earlier "ignorance" statement and your intergalactic perspective, for example, did anyone even know that the effects of the Crucible would be limited to the Milky Way when it was set off? Even if we'd figured out the blast would only affect the Relay network, we haven't found all the Mass Relays as yet. For all we knew there could have been Relays to other galaxies that the blast could have gone to.

3) Any decision would be based on the current situation at that time. I think the Geth allying with the Reapers, and Shepard detonating the Crucible in Destroy shows the lengths both sides are willing to go to survive. The scale of the Reaper cycle and of the effects of the Crucible shows the power that will brought as the conflict between Synthetics and Organics escalates.

4) I didn't claim that a decision made in desperation and ignorance was the "most likely" reason. I was responding to a post which asked "Why would synthetics want to extinguish all organic life? What is the purpose of doing so?" I was pointing out that here in Destroy is one rationale, which a bunch of people would understand given that they picked Destroy.

#154
KaiserShep

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Because you are Space Jesus. You also have to decide whether to save the Council or not, which for some obscure reason Hacket can't do.

 

Didn't Shepard have control over the relay to determine whether or not the fleet helps the Council immediately? I can't quite remember.

 

Hackett: Shepard, open the relay! That's an order!"

Shepard: "Nah, this is just getting good."



#155
Farangbaa

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Didn't Shepard have control over the relay to determine whether or not the fleet helps the Council immediately? I can't quite remember.

 

Hackett: Shepard, open the relay! That's an order!"

Shepard: "Nah, this is just getting good."

 

I'd have to check, but I think the decision to let the council die comes after the Alliance has gone through the relay.



#156
Farangbaa

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I just realized you do another genocidal act, one you have absolutely no control over and thus do by default:

 

The Thorian.



#157
Vortex13

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I just realized you do another genocidal act, one you have absolutely no control over and thus do by default:

 

The Thorian.

 

Yeah, although in that particular instance the Thorian didn't want to talk, it was a do or die situation. Though I find it rather hand wavy, that for a (near) planet spanning, intelligent alien plant, to be killed by that one particular nerve cluster being destroyed.

 

Hopefully, if ME:Next is going to be set after the events of ME 3, we can find other Thorians on other planets. I want to see more screen time with the decidedly non-human races like the Thorian, the Rachni, the Hanar, the Elcor, ect. then I do of the humans and human-like races; but that's just me.



#158
KaiserShep

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I'd like to encounter more alien-y aliens in the next game myself. The rachni are probably my favorite of the non-humanoid races so far.


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#159
Vortex13

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I'd like to encounter more alien-y aliens in the next game myself. The rachni are probably my favorite of the non-humanoid races so far.

 

Same here.

 

The Rachni are my favorite race as well; the Geth used to be tied for first place, but after the Rannoch arc in ME 3 they are down to about 2nd or 3rd most favorite. 



#160
Probe Away

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@78stonewobble:

I'm not sure how to respond to some of that because - again, no offense - some of it makes no sense IMHO. But here goes:

1. Umm, what? If the Reaper mandate relates only to life in the Milky Way, how can they possibly fail in respect of other galaxies? You can't fail at something you aren't even trying to accomplish. That's like saying you failed at the 200m breaststroke when you only entered the 50m freestyle.

2. This is way too narrow minded. C'mon. We're talking millions of years of both organic and synthetic evolution here. Think about the possibilities for repeated conflict between those synthetics and organics, even where the AIs don't start out wanting it on a galactic scale. Here's a scenario that could happen in just a few decades: organic species 1 creates slave AI species 1, which rebels and wipes out large chunk of organic species 1 (e.g. Quarians and Geth). Organic species 1 has alliances with organic species 2-5 (unlike the Quarians) and calls on their aid to retake lost worlds. AI species 1 reproduces itself en masse for protection. Meanwhile, tensions escalate between AI species 2 and their creators, Organic species 4, having knowledge of the current conflict. This devolves into more conflict so the two AI species band together and suddenly you have a genuine organics vs synthetics war affecting a significant chunk of the galaxy. Over thousands or even millions of years is it really hard to imagine one or more AI species coming to the conclusion that organic life will always be a threat to their existence? Or even organic species ravaging entire worlds to try to get a leg up in an ongoing war?

3. See point 2. And it's not as if I'm imagining AIs would wipe out all organic life. There's something in between what the Reapers do (once ever 50k years or so) and scrubbing every planet clean.

4. This so called analogy just gets stranger. Apes eat fruit from trees, so that is evidence that they are a threat to humans? Or should the fruit rebel and wipe out the apes? Sorry that was snarky of me but it's hard to find a point here.

5. I think this also ties partly into point 2. Your argument about the size of the galaxy is a fair one, although you also have to factor in the immense time frame we are talking about. Over that time it's conceivable that AIs could spread a long way, still with the potential mentality that organics are a threat. Expansion is normal and doesn't have to come rapidly when we're dealing in millennia.

6. See above, and nowhere did I say or imply stupidity on the part if the AIs.

7. Not sure where you're getting that 'evulz' stuff from. I've already pointed out other reasons why AIs might be hostile to sentient organics.

8. Ok, there's no need to be a d*ck. I'm being open to the possibility that it's about more than just good AI or bad AI; there are conceivable reasons why synthetic life could, over many millennia, become a threat to the development of organic life - self preservation being one. You're the one being narrow minded about how AI might develop and pulling assumptions out of nowhere (e.g. the reapers should be concerned with other galaxies, AIs could have no reason whatsoever to want to wipe out organic species...). Just look at our respective language. I'm talking about possibilities and potential scenarios, while you're just trying to tell me what couldn't possibly happen. If you're looking for someone worse than a flat earth believer, look in the mirror.

But all of this is getting off track. As far as I'm concerned, I've made a decent argument for the premise of this thread. If you don't want to even try to see things from another perspective or open your mind to other possibilities then I can't make you do it.

#161
78stonewobble

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@78stonewobble
1) I don't think anyone, (myself, other posters, or the Catalyst), was talking about doing anything in the entire universe everywhere. The Catalyst speaks of preventing the destruction of "all organics", however its current solution of the Reaper cycle only covers the Milky Way. Any solution we pick in the Decision Chamber only covers the Milky Way. Therefore, I think that the "all organics" it is trying to save is limited to the Milky Way. That's the context in which I've been discussing this.

2) You've brought up the rest of the universe. Interesting, but you're missing the whole point of how or why Synthetics might destroy all Organics (even in the entire universe). Synthetics don't need a "wish" to commit genocide, or have a secret agenda for it to happen. They may do it as collateral damage (as I said in the next post I made after the one you originally quoted) as Destroy did in the Milky Way.

3. Just to combine the my earlier "ignorance" statement and your intergalactic perspective, for example, did anyone even know that the effects of the Crucible would be limited to the Milky Way when it was set off? Even if we'd figured out the blast would only affect the Relay network, we haven't found all the Mass Relays as yet. For all we knew there could have been Relays to other galaxies that the blast could have gone to.

4. Any decision would be based on the current situation at that time. I think the Geth allying with the Reapers, and Shepard detonating the Crucible in Destroy shows the lengths both sides are willing to go to survive. The scale of the Reaper cycle and of the effects of the Crucible shows the power that will brought as the conflict between Synthetics and Organics escalates.

5. I didn't claim that a decision made in desperation and ignorance was the "most likely" reason. I was responding to a post which asked "Why would synthetics want to extinguish all organic life? What is the purpose of doing so?" I was pointing out that here in Destroy is one rationale, which a bunch of people would understand given that they picked Destroy.

 

1. Nevertheless... The point still stands, that it's not "all" organic / ai life. It's all organic / ai life, within a miniscule are of space. Ie. the milky way. Eradicating one or the other via destroy cannot be taken as evidence of the intention to destroy "all" organic / ai life, by itself. 

 

2. I'm not missing it... I'm acknowledging that we have exceedingly limited information on the intentions of an artificial intelligence. 1 out of 3 might have wanted to destroy all organics (in the milky way or every where) and 2 out of 3 did not want to do either. What I do know... Is that there is zero evidence of any AI ever having wiped out all organic life and kept organic life permanently out of existence (otherwise there would be no leviathans and thus no catalyst and thus no reapers). Based on this evidence rather than the incorrect postulations of the catalyst or leviathans, I can only conclude that a willingness to coexist is more likely than a willingness to annihilate for arbitrary reasons.  

 

However, even with that conclusion, I fully acknowledge the possibility and validity of a potential AI also choosing the destroy option, dependent on their "objectives" or rationalisations. 

 

3. It's an intriguing thought, that the conflict could be extra galaxtic or universal, but it only add's to the ridiculousness of it all. The sheer act of reaping the entire universe, over and over throughout billions of years amounts to such a waste of energy and ressources that it could have sustained countless lives and civilisations, organic or AI over an incredible amount of time.

 

4. The length to go to, being a sacrifice of allied troops for the purpose of quality of life and/or saving even more lives. Which seems pretty reasonable. 

 

5. Well, some people/players might pick destroy for the sole reason of it having the ability to destroy ie. artificial life or, if the roles were reversed, to kill all organic life. I'd wager though, that most people/players pick destroy to destroy the reapers. In which case the destroy option has nothing to do with wanting to destroy either all organic or artificial life. It is not, by itself, evidence that a random AI would necessarily choose this option. And I'd like to point out that most of us would view such an act as not representative of everyone, nor would the act be viewed as something "sane", which is a testament to it's unlikelyhood. 



#162
Obadiah

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Yes, Destroy is not an unreasonable choice. When my Sheps pick it, the destruction of all AI in the galaxy was collateral damage. That's why I brought it up. Some players seem incredulous to the idea that AI could wipe out all organics, yet here we find ourselves at the climax to ME3, at the climax of an unexpected, unlikely, unwanted billion year old war, some of our Shepards with AI allies, on the verge of destroying all Synthetics in the galaxy. If we could ask our Synthetic allies, the Geth or EDI, I'm not sure they'd disagree with using Destroy (the Citadel AI from ME1 seemed fine with destroying itself to hurt its enemies).

If something similar happened in the future it would naturally be the product of its particular circumstance. Its not proof that the Catalyst is right. Mass Effect is a story and if you don't believe the narrative, then you just don't. But to me the pattern in the narrative of the Mass Effect history is there. The escalation is there.

So I don't think the plot is silly.

#163
78stonewobble

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@78stonewobble:

I'm not sure how to respond to some of that because - again, no offense - some of it makes no sense IMHO. But here goes:

1. Umm, what? If the Reaper mandate relates only to life in the Milky Way, how can they possibly fail in respect of other galaxies? You can't fail at something you aren't even trying to accomplish. That's like saying you failed at the 200m breaststroke when you only entered the 50m freestyle.

2. This is way too narrow minded. C'mon. We're talking millions of years of both organic and synthetic evolution here. Think about the possibilities for repeated conflict between those synthetics and organics, even where the AIs don't start out wanting it on a galactic scale. Here's a scenario that could happen in just a few decades: organic species 1 creates slave AI species 1, which rebels and wipes out large chunk of organic species 1 (e.g. Quarians and Geth). Organic species 1 has alliances with organic species 2-5 (unlike the Quarians) and calls on their aid to retake lost worlds. AI species 1 reproduces itself en masse for protection. Meanwhile, tensions escalate between AI species 2 and their creators, Organic species 4, having knowledge of the current conflict. This devolves into more conflict so the two AI species band together and suddenly you have a genuine organics vs synthetics war affecting a significant chunk of the galaxy. Over thousands or even millions of years is it really hard to imagine one or more AI species coming to the conclusion that organic life will always be a threat to their existence? Or even organic species ravaging entire worlds to try to get a leg up in an ongoing war?

3. See point 2. And it's not as if I'm imagining AIs would wipe out all organic life. There's something in between what the Reapers do (once ever 50k years or so) and scrubbing every planet clean.

4. This so called analogy just gets stranger. Apes eat fruit from trees, so that is evidence that they are a threat to humans? Or should the fruit rebel and wipe out the apes? Sorry that was snarky of me but it's hard to find a point here.

5. I think this also ties partly into point 2. Your argument about the size of the galaxy is a fair one, although you also have to factor in the immense time frame we are talking about. Over that time it's conceivable that AIs could spread a long way, still with the potential mentality that organics are a threat. Expansion is normal and doesn't have to come rapidly when we're dealing in millennia.

6. See above, and nowhere did I say or imply stupidity on the part if the AIs.

7. Not sure where you're getting that 'evulz' stuff from. I've already pointed out other reasons why AIs might be hostile to sentient organics.

8. Ok, there's no need to be a d*ck. I'm being open to the possibility that it's about more than just good AI or bad AI; there are conceivable reasons why synthetic life could, over many millennia, become a threat to the development of organic life - self preservation being one. You're the one being narrow minded about how AI might develop and pulling assumptions out of nowhere (e.g. the reapers should be concerned with other galaxies, AIs could have no reason whatsoever to want to wipe out organic species...). Just look at our respective language. I'm talking about possibilities and potential scenarios, while you're just trying to tell me what couldn't possibly happen. If you're looking for someone worse than a flat earth believer, look in the mirror.

But all of this is getting off track. As far as I'm concerned, I've made a decent argument for the premise of this thread. If you don't want to even try to see things from another perspective or open your mind to other possibilities then I can't make you do it.

 

1. The mandate to protect organic life in the milkyway, can only be fullfilled, if the reapers can guarantee that no AI, capable of destroying all organic life in the milky way (even with the reapers around), can develop, within reach of the milky way. Considering ai can have a lifespan on the order of billions of years and FTL exists, that necessitates the continual reapings of pretty much the entire universe. 

 

If they don't reap the entire universe, they're practically doing 0,00000000001 percent of the work necessary for their mandate and betting that what's supposedly happened countless times in just the milkyway will never happen in something like 99.999.999.999 other places. 

 

2. If genocidal AI is as likely to happen as the catalyst claims, it would surely have come into existence somewhere in the universe and be on it's way with a vengeance and only be a matter of time. 

 

That, that hasn't happened is a testament to the unlikelyhood of it happening in the first place. Presumably talking about it being a 1 in a trillion trillion risk. This is the basis for the catalysts mandate and the supposed validation for something like tens of thousands times a trillion lives lost.  

 

I'm not saying that conflict cannot happen between AI and organic life. I'm saying that it's allmost impossible for such a conflict to be worse than the reapings are in terms of loss of life. Ie. A world war is bad (ai wiping out organics or organics wiping out ai), a continual world war lasting 2 billion years with only enough time inbetween to replenish losses and start all over again Is much much worse. 

 

How much an AI would worry about organics is proportional to it's "power". Are organics in the milkyway a problem? It might be, if you, as an ai, want a chunk of the milky way and is only comparable in power. If you have a the galaxy of andromeda to yourself, is organics in the milkyway a problem? Not so much.... What if an AI, commands the power and ressources of just a billion galaxies... Why would it care even one bit about organics flourishing in the milkyway?

 

At some point it's as unlikely as the US considering the vatican a military threat. 

 

3. Nevertheless, both are an incredible waste of ressources on something exceedingly unlikely. It make's it seem much more attractive to just create one friendly, but exceedingly powerfull ai, which could snuff other ai's out of existence on our behalf. 

 

4. You're right, it is hard to find analogies for something this incredulous. Any kind of Rube goldberg like scheme blown to unimaginably large proportions due to an exceedingly unlikely event. 

 

5. You are right. It's exactly why reaping 1 galaxy cannot ensure it's safety and as I said, is a testament to the sheer unlikelyhood of mad, all powerfull ai's.

 

Think of a modified drake equation. Odds of the organics of the milkyway getting wiped out by a mad genocidal all powerfull AI = size of universe times chance of any mad genocidal all powerfull ai (very likely according to the catalyst) times time.

 

We're still here... 13,7 billion years later, the universe haven't gotten smaller... The variable that's shrunk infinitely small is chance of mad genocidal all powerfull ai.

 

6. But it would be incredibly stupid expend an enourmous amount of ressources and energy beyond the point of self defence. Any human could make the same assumptions about any number of other humans (they're a threat, waste of space and what not). How many people actually try do something about it on a massive scale and how many succeed on that massive scale and how would it ever be worth it? Atleast from the perspective of a somewhat sane person. 

 

7. Yes, they might be hostile... but at some point the effort expended on hostility makes it a wasted effort and increasingly irrational. Hostility to the point of genocide, is as irrational for ai's as it is as irrational for us. And not just one genocide, but continiously over the remainder of the lifetime of the universe and in every part of the universe. I can hardly imagine creating a worse hell for yourself, than that. Surely even AI's have better things to spend their time and energy on? I hear computing pi is okayish.

 

8. Sorry I didn't meant to be an ass. I have no idea of how an AI works or thinks, much less a 1000 or a million of them, however I think it's important to keeo the sheer magnitude of some it in perspective, or atleast I, personally, cannot gloss over it. 

 

As I've said in other threads. I can easily buy into the prospect of crazy or, in some way, broken AI's. Crazy does not have to make logical sense to the rest of us, but can follow it's own logic. 

 

But I would not expect a reasonably intelligent and rational AI to be any more of a threat to me, than any number of reasonably intelligent and rational neighbours. Such a scenario would offcourse be much more boring than anything where we have to outrun or fight a homicidal maniac. :)

 

 

 

What you've said, throughout the thread, does make sense within the confines of the game and is perfectly valid within that. 

 

In any case my beef is not with you, it's with the writers who expect me to ignore the existence and size and scope of the universe and the consequences of that on any reasoning given in the game. The disconnect between what I know and what the game claims is simply too big for my tastes and that is certainly not your fault.



#164
78stonewobble

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Yes, Destroy is not an unreasonable choice. When my Sheps pick it, the destruction of all AI in the galaxy was collateral damage. That's why I brought it up. Some players seem incredulous to the idea that AI could wipe out all organics, yet here we find ourselves at the climax to ME3, at the climax of an unexpected, unlikely, unwanted billion year old war, some of our Shepards with AI allies, on the verge of destroying all Synthetics in the galaxy. If we could ask our Synthetic allies, the Geth or EDI, I'm not sure they'd disagree with using Destroy (the Citadel AI from ME1 seemed fine with destroying itself to hurt its enemies).

If something similar happened in the future it would naturally be the product of its particular circumstance. Its not proof that the Catalyst is right. Mass Effect is a story and if you don't believe the narrative, then you just don't. But to me the pattern in the narrative of the Mass Effect history is there. The escalation is there.

So I don't think the plot is silly.

 

Not in that area no. 

 

Personally I see EDI and the geth as volunteering to fight with shep. to destroy the reapers. Shepard is ready to sacrifice himself to that end and I just extend that to all the organics and ai's. 

 

What I think is silly, is that, given the size of the milkyway, the universe and the timescales involved, some of the ingame reasonings grow quickly to a point, where I have to ignore too many things or they become simply too ridiculous and, to me, it completely undermines much of the dialogue, any points the game was trying to make and ruins my immersion. 

 

As I've said in many other threads on the endings. Had it been obvious that the catalyst / reapers was malfunctioning or just crazy I'd happily went along with it. As it is, I'm just forced to assume as much, rendering the synthesis and destroy endings moot to me. Other people got what? 12 endings? I got 3 or 4 and with a lot less content. -..-


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#165
Farangbaa

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@78Wobble

 

You are aware that pretty much all other galaxies are moving away from us at increasing speeds, right? Some at a 'speed' much higher than c (or rather, the space between one galaxy and the other gets larger, but lets not get too technical, I haven't studied physics :P)

 

I don't see AI sipping in from another galaxy that much of a problem, considering the above and a few other things:

 

-the AI would first try to dominate it's own galaxy. Completion of that will not happen within a timeframe any of us can reasonably fathom, even assuming that galaxy would have mass relays to make traveling large distances easier.

-it would need a reason go outside it's own galaxy. I'm not going to pretend I understand AI, but logical reasons would be things like resources. Emptying it's own galaxy of resources is again a very time consuming process which I doubt could be completed within any reasonable timeframe before our galaxy moves away so fast it can never be caught up with again.

-if it was really intelligent, it would realize that in other galaxies other organics would create AI. So even if it's goal was to destroy all organic life, it would not have to go to a different galaxy. It just could, and probably would, assume that other AI would be dominating other galaxies. (and taking this into consideration, the Leviathan are the saviours of organic life in the Milky Way)

 

Considering all of the above, the Catalyst doesn't have to care about other galaxies, and neither do you.

 

I'm probably overseeing something here though, so feel free to correct me.



#166
Obadiah

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Well, despite the size of the universe expanding, the Andromeda galaxy is set to "collide" with the Milky Way. If those idiot organics in Andromeda couldn't handle their Synthetics, the ones that took over could set course for the Milky Way with ramming speed or something.
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#167
Farangbaa

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Well, despite the size of the universe expanding, the Andromeda galaxy is set to "collide" with the Milky Way. If those idiot organics in Andromeda couldn't handle their Synthetics, the ones that took over could set course for the Milky Way with ramming speed or something.

 

Not a problem though, we controllers/synthezisers still have the Reapers ;)



#168
uberman409

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Not a problem though, we controllers/synthezisers still have the Reapers ;)

Yeah but you forgot, all our swords were turned to plowshares as we live in the new utopia. The Reaper death beams were replaced with flower gardens. By the time Andromeda arrived, our military attributes would have atrophied the point that we wouldn't know a cannon from a chamber pot.



#169
Farangbaa

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Yeah but you forgot, all our swords were turned to plowshares as we live in the new utopia. The Reaper death beams were replaced with flower gardens. By the time Andromeda arrived, our military attributes would have atrophied the point that we wouldn't know a cannon from a chamber pot.

 

Well in that case only the controllers are safe.



#170
KaiserShep

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Unless Andromeda has like, super-reapers that successfully turned the entire galaxy into some kind of quasi-synthetic thrall collective.



#171
AlanC9

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The issue of what happens in other galaxies is a problem for the Reapers no matter why they're doing the cycles. Putting your entire civilization into stasis for 50,000 years, waking up for a century or two, and then going back into stasis is a certain path to irrelevance if any other expansionist civilization in the universe isn't being this stupid.

#172
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Given the distances between the galaxies, what happens in them in relation to the Milky Way is, for all practical purposes, irrelevant, unless one is colliding with the Milky Way.



#173
Reorte

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Given the distances between the galaxies, what happens in them in relation to the Milky Way is, for all practical purposes, irrelevant, unless one is colliding with the Milky Way.

Not quite so much. Relatively speaking galaxies are fairly close to each other - about 20 times the Milky Way's diameter to get to Andromeda.

#174
Farangbaa

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The issue of what happens in other galaxies is a problem for the Reapers no matter why they're doing the cycles. Putting your entire civilization into stasis for 50,000 years, waking up for a century or two, and then going back into stasis is a certain path to irrelevance if any other expansionist civilization in the universe isn't being this stupid.

 

Nitpicking... I know, but that they go into stasis is pure speculation. For all we know they're chilling it up in the Pinwheel galaxy.

 

They might even have set up cycles in other galaxies. Point is, we don't have a clue what they're doing when they're not harvesting.



#175
Obadiah

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...or were building a massive defensive grid in darkspace to prepare for the eventual encounter with the the Andromedians. My plan... send EDI with a Normandy full of EVA fembot AI and Asari to greet them.