48 réponses à ce sujet

[Dale]

Okay, the ORGANIC Leviathan created the Catalyst to keep order so synthetics (especially) & organics wouldn't completely annihilate each other.

 

"the creation will always rebel against their creators"  (ie: Quarians & Geth)  So Catalyst then determines routine "cleansing" was necessary (the 50,000  year solution) so it created the Reaper concept.  

 

What Leviathan didn't count on was being INCLUDED in that "solution".  

 

When Sepheard pointed this out to Catalyst -- was it then that Catalyst realized that "the creation will always rebel against their creators" -- and realized it was flawed and submitted to change things?

 

Is this the finale logic?   Do you have a different scenario?

 

Thanks

-Dale

 

"if nobody knows you by your real name, then what's the purpose of an alias?"

[Sir DeLoria]

The Crucible is the device developed over multiple cycles to stop the Reapers, you mean the Catalyst.

I'm not sure if the Catalyst ever realized the flaw of its logic, it merely allowed Shepard the choice of a different approach. Kinda pointless to discuss though, as the ending is incredibly flawed and filled with plot holes anyway.

[themikefest]

I don't recall Leviathan creating the Crucible. It created the Catalyst.

[Jukaga]

The Catalyst explictly says that when the Crucible docked it unlocked formerly hidden parts of it's programming that allowed it to openly reveal itself and reveal the possibilities on how to 'resolve' the problem it had been struggling with. That's the literal presentation.

 

Now who designed the Crucible to make it able to alter the Catalyst? Endless cycles worth of Leviathan-influenced peoples.

[Dale]

Yes, thank you -- corrected to Catalyst

[von uber]

The Catalyst explictly says that when the Crucible docked it unlocked formerly hidden parts of it's programming that allowed it to openly reveal itself and reveal the possibilities on how to 'resolve' the problem it had been struggling with. That's the literal presentation.

Which makes no sense whatsoever unless the crucible was designed at the same time.

[Jukaga]

Which makes no sense whatsoever unless the crucible was designed at the same time.

Not so. The Leviathans designed the Catalyst. 1st harvest happens, we know the rest. What is pretty heavily implied by the Leviathan DLC is that the Crucible itself is a Leviathan designed or at least influenced invention. Presumably the surviving Leviathans knew much if not all of the architecture of the Catalyst and so influenced the Crucible's design over the ages in order to resolve the issue once and for all. It just the conceit of being the main character in an epic story that Shepard happened to be 'the one' who actually finally accomplished it.

 

It's up for argument what the Leviathans actually 'want' the user of the Crucible/Catalyst combo to do. Maybe ME4 will address this.

[Rusted Cage]

Wishful thinking maybe but I like to imagine Ksad Ishan and the science team which journeyed through the conduit had something to do with altering the Catalyst.

[Kabooooom]

I think you might find this to be an interesting read:

http://www.gamefront...nalysis-part-1/

[Bardox9]

The Leviathan didn't design the Crucible nor the Citadel. The Citadel was built by the Reapers after the first harvest to speed up the time between cycles. The Crucible was developed by the races of future cycles. The Leviathan didn't influence the design. They only watched through those orbs. The leviathan even admit that they don't know what the Crucible does.

 

The Catalyst doesn't say that the Crucible "unlocks hidden parts". It said the Crucible was little more than a power source that opened the catalyst to new possibilities. The Citadel was never built with the Crucible in mind. Even the Citadel wasn't added to the Crucible design by the original race that designed the thing. it was added later by another cycle. No one knows what the hell this thing does.

 

Personally, I don't believe a single word that thing says. It's a construct representing the combine intelligence's of all Reapers. The closest thing I can think of to compare it with is the Queen of the Borg in Star Trek. I don't even think it's the catalyst. I think it's Harbinger messing with Shepard's head trying to push Shepard toward Control or Synthesis. Both of which are the paths of Reaper Agents TIM and Saren. The entire purpose of Shepard from the moment you talk to sovereign on Virmir is to destroy the Reapers. If you choose control or Synthesis, in Adnerson's words, "the Reapers are controlling YOU!" You have been indoctrinated.

[Excella Gionne]

The Catalyst was made to create a solution between organics and synthetics, but because synthetics are meant to surpass their creators because they are an advanced representation of them, the Catalyst's only solution was to harvest the knowledge and their creators' species, the Leviathans. There are no peaceful solutions between organics and their synthetic creations, and because synthetics are vastly superior, they will eventually wipe out their creators. It is also safe to assume that the slaughter made by organics' synthetics will eventually go on and exterminate organic life. The Reapers step in before anything of this sort will happen. During Javik's cycle he talked about a species that was later consumed by their own synthetic creations. This is why the reapers were created.

 

The Reapers are a contradiction to their own ethics, but their cause does have a purpose that does not lack insight. The Catalyst does not flaw itself, it's simply doing what it was created to do, but it has yet to find that final solution to end its harvest. The Crucible has never interacted with the Citadel before, therefore, the Catalyst cannot predict its outcome. 

 

The only thing that is flawed here are the endings. We still don't know who built the devices for the Crucible. When I say "devices", I'm talking about the Destroy kill switch, and the Control device. Synthesis is pretty much the only ending that feels alienated since it doesn't have any sort of activation device other than an Organic jumping into the energy of the Crucible.

[dgcatanisiri]

The Crucible's construction manages to change the variables for the Catalyst - it creates new options, new possibilities for resolving the matter of the conflict of organics and synthetics because it will change how these things operate. Before all it could do was use the Reapers, because that was the best option it had (best by its logic, anyway). With the Crucible, it can now do something different - Destroy, Control, or Synthesis. These are a 'better' solution to the Catalyst's computer logic of 50.1% trumps 49.9%. Destroy will, by virtue of wiping out synthetics (it's always seemed synthetics based on Reaper code to me, which is by the endgame how the major artificial intelligences achieve that), tip the scales in favor of organics. Control will give an organic mind control of the greatest synthetic weapon, serve as a guardian and peacekeeper against it in the future (at least in a best case scenario). Synthesis allows both to combine, and as a result, there is no longer just synthetic or just organic, but a total combination of both.

 

I assume that, based on Shepard's dialogue (admittedly to Conrad Verner of all people, BUT...) that, as a device that manipulates dark energy, the Crucible resonates with eezo in some fashion to reach out across the various relays to do this all at once, which makes it a far more efficient solution than the Reapers - it happens all at once, rather than the slow harvest of species' over the course of decades or even centuries, and it needs the Citadel because of how it's the most massive Mass Relay in existence (since it would have to be to allow the Reapers to have formerly used it as their gateway into this galaxy). The Catalyst IS the Catalyst because it is the program that allows this.

 

But what happens is that, with the creation of the Crucible, the creation of these three new options for the Catalyst, the variables change. Now there's a solution to the problem before the Catalyst that is not what it had previously designated the 'best' solution, and has a higher chance of success. But, as a limited computer program, it cannot choose on its own, which means it has to be Shepard to make that decision in the end, because Shepard has free will and indepentent thought.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You wouldn't know them and there isn't time to explain. But they were one of the thrall races of the first cycle, the ones in that reaper you killed on Rannoch. I thought it was quite genius. I decided to use it as a test to find out when organics were ready. 20,480 cycles tried to build and deploy the Crucible and 20,480.9 Cycles have failed. We are at your cycle's terminus, and whether you succeed or not is up to you. We thought the design destroyed long ago. Clearly organics are more resourceful than we realized.

[cap and gown]

The Catalyst says when you first talk to him that the fact that Shepard has made it as far as he/she has shows his solution will no longer work. He later goes on to say that the Crucible created new possibilities. But it was the ability of Shepard to reach the Catalyst that he says makes his old solution no longer viable. (Why that should be the case is not explained.)

[Bardox9]

I can explain it... It didn't happen. It wasn't real. It was a dream sequence. Everything the Catalyst says is an attempt to get Shepard to choose control or Synthesis. It is attempting to indoctrinate you.

[shepskisaac]

Leviathan tampering is rather obvious, and heavily hinted visually when they close up the camera on its eyes during the Crucible question. They were the only race that knew about it, so most likely they tampered with the Crucible to kill multiple birds with one stone - the Reapers, the Intelligence and other AIs.

[Bardox9]

You are assuming they knew what it did. They admit that they don't know what it will do. For all they know the thing uses dark energy to make cosmic pop corn. Why would they tamper with it?

[shepskisaac]

You are assuming they knew what it did. They admit that they don't know what it will do. For all they know the thing uses dark energy to make cosmic pop corn. Why would they tamper with it?

The moment they say "we know nuthing!" the camera zooms in on Levi's shifty eyes lol, I mean, how banal 'hint hint wink wink' is it?

[Obadiah]

I think the Catalyst thought that the power it held as a hyper-advanced Synthetic would always be enough to overpower Organic/Synthetic life that had only been allowed to advance to a certain level within each cycle.

So, on the one hand, the fact that life in each cycle was able to design and build a superweapon, and that life in this cycle is this close to setting off that weapon capable of destroying all Synthetic life and defeating it, showed that its current solution wouldn't work anymore. On the other hand, indeed, the device gives the Catalyst certain unexpected capabilities it did not have before.

The Catalyst has found itself in a Prisoner's Dilemma. Before, it acted as a rational actor, should - always attempting to maximize its position of power while minimizing possible failure. It has now found that cannot impose a solution, and instead it needs to cooperate with life in order to solve the problem. It has taken the first step in offering to cooperate.

[Bardox9]

The moment they say "we know nuthing!" the camera zooms in on Levi's shifty eyes lol, I mean, how banal 'hint hint wink wink' is it?

They don't say "we know nothing!" They say "We have watched it's construction before. it has never been completed. Those who have tried still fell victim to the harvest. It's outcome is unknown."

 

They may or may not have seen every design variation the Crucible has ever had, but they still have no idea what the thing will actually do.

[Rusted Cage]

That's a really good link Kabooom, thanks for sharing. I find the writer's interpretations to be plausible and enjoyed reading.

 

Edit: How are you guys quoting posts? The button isn't working for me.

[Kabooooom]

That's a really good link Kabooom, thanks for sharing. I find the writer's interpretations to be plausible and enjoyed reading.

Edit: How are you guys quoting posts? The button isn't working for me.

Yeah, it is the interpretation I adhere to and what I think the writers probably intended, but poorly delivered.

[andy6915]

The Catalyst is the Reaper leader... Who got hacked by the Crucible. It seems I need to repost this again for the first time in a long time. Guess I should get pasting text, starting here.

 

-----

 

http://forum.bioware...a-derpy-choice/

 

I've seen it around the forum enough now to realize that it's not a few people misunderstanding, it's nearly everyone. I've copied and pasted a post I made about this once already to respond to a refuse thread, but now I'm thinking that I might need to give that pasted post its own thread.
 

 

Most of you "refuse" guys think that anything but refuse is letting the Catalyst dictate the terms? No, that's not how it worked. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When you refuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file (a non-virus one, before someone gets cute) asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone, you handed the choice back to the Reapers by choice because of refusing. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear. 

Refusers, you had the control of the Crucible and the Catalyst in your hands, and politely handed it back to the Catalyst by shutting the Crucible down. Epic "derp" moment right there. You had total control, was the one dictating the terms of how this encounter was going to go down, had the full house of cards to your chest... And responded by deciding to release control, let the Catalyst dictate instead, and folded the hand of cards you had. Good job.

 

Bottom line, the Catalyst was a scared litte wimp who could at best use some word manipulation to try to coerce you into picking the option he preferred... Or do something supremely stupid and reject the Crucible by mentally rejecting it either by saying it out loud as you thought it in your head or by shooting the Crucible's current mouthpiece. Make no mistake, destroy is the very last thing he wants. When you go up there with low EMS and destroy is the only option, he's sounds really angry. That anger is because he knows that he doesn't even have a chance to avoiding destroy, there's no options but that. Yet he still has to bring you up there even though you coming up angers him so much. Kind of telling actually (doesn't want you up there=brings you up anyway=clearly not a being in control of themselves).

 

-----

 

And if you go to refute this, read the thread first to see if I already addressed it. It's only 2 pages, should take 10 minutes tops.

[andy6915]

Found another post from another thread where I brought this up, and I made a very good point in it. Basically, if the Catalyst likes that that the Crucible "made new possibilities"... Why does it have its Reapers shooting the hell out of the Crucible and actually succeed in destroying it if you take too long making a decision?

 

-----

 

That is why the Reaper's are trying to destroy the Crucible, and succeed if you take too long. The Catalyst wants free of the Crucible so he can get back to doing things his own way, and ordering its Reapers to keep attacking it to free it is a way to do that. The Catalyst WANTS the Crucible destroyed, it's a weapon that can end everything it's done, end its plans, and is currently controlling him with an iron grip. It's ultimate want is to have the Crucible destroyed the Catalyst able to control itself again and stop being a mouthpiece for the device and making it divulge info and bring up elevators it didn't want to.

 

The fact is, the Catalyst is acting like someone who is being forced to say and do things again their will. His actions don't make sense and in fact contradict themselves (bringing you up and then being mad that he brought you up like it's your fault). Saying self destructive things that are, at best, going to ruin everything he's done for the last hundreds of trillions of years (bringing up destroy all by himself). The Reaper's are trying (and succeed if you waste time) to destroy the Crucible the entire time you're talking and deciding proving that he really doesn't like the Crucible even if his WORDS say otherwise. The sudden changing of its personality and actions the moment you decide you won't pick any of the Crucibles options, it going from "I have new possibilities I wish to politely discuss with you" to "I win, you all DIE" in the span of a few seconds as if he was freed of mind control (much like the fast personality change of people when controlled by Leviathan to after the control is broken).

[shodiswe]

The Leviathan didn't design the Crucible nor the Citadel. The Citadel was built by the Reapers after the first harvest to speed up the time between cycles. The Crucible was developed by the races of future cycles. The Leviathan didn't influence the design. They only watched through those orbs. The leviathan even admit that they don't know what the Crucible does.
 
The Catalyst doesn't say that the Crucible "unlocks hidden parts". It said the Crucible was little more than a power source that opened the catalyst to new possibilities. The Citadel was never built with the Crucible in mind. Even the Citadel wasn't added to the Crucible design by the original race that designed the thing. it was added later by another cycle. No one knows what the hell this thing does.
 
Personally, I don't believe a single word that thing says. It's a construct representing the combine intelligence's of all Reapers. The closest thing I can think of to compare it with is the Queen of the Borg in Star Trek. I don't even think it's the catalyst. I think it's Harbinger messing with Shepard's head trying to push Shepard toward Control or Synthesis. Both of which are the paths of Reaper Agents TIM and Saren. The entire purpose of Shepard from the moment you talk to sovereign on Virmir is to destroy the Reapers. If you choose control or Synthesis, in Adnerson's words, "the Reapers are controlling YOU!" You have been indoctrinated.

But but but.... The Catalyst lives on the Citadel, the Catalyst existed before the first Reaper or even before the first harvest..

I think the Citadel was the platform on which the "Inteligence" aka the Catalyst was created. And the Citadel is Leviathan in origin but later it served the Catalysts needs. Which also explains the Catlysts limited control of the Citadel, it wasn't built by or for the Catalyst, but it was taken over after the Leviathans that created it were killed by it's drone servants, and turned into the first Reaper(Harbinger).

Also, I don't think the Catalyst care which solution is used, as long as it belives it to be a solutio to the problem it "exists" to solve. IT woulddo anything to accomplish it's reason for existing.
The Geth no longer has a reason for existing, so they are consumed by existential pondering and a search for answers, that's why they wanted to build that gigantic sphere, to find answers.
The Geth may know why they were created, but that doesn't mean they don't feel lost and are looking for a meaning to their continued existance.