48 réponses à ce sujet

[Bardox9]

But but but.... The Catalyst lives on the Citadel, the Catalyst existed before the first Reaper or even before the first harvest..

I think the Citadel was the platform on which the "Inteligence" aka the Catalyst was created. And the Citadel is Leviathan in origin but later it served the Catalysts needs. Which also explains the Catlysts limited control of the Citadel, it wasn't built by or for the Catalyst, but it was taken over after the Leviathans that created it were killed by it's drone servants, and turned into the first Reaper(Harbinger).

Also, I don't think the Catalyst care which solution is used, as long as it belives it to be a solutio to the problem it "exists" to solve. IT woulddo anything to accomplish it's reason for existing.
The Geth no longer has a reason for existing, so they are consumed by existential pondering and a search for answers, that's why they wanted to build that gigantic sphere, to find answers.
The Geth may know why they were created, but that doesn't mean they don't feel lost and are looking for a meaning to their continued existance.

 

Incorrect. The Leviathan did not build the Citadel. The Citadel and the relays were all built by the Reapers to speed the time between cycles.

 

And the Catalyst, assuming that is what Shepard is talking to at the end (which I don't think it is), has decided long ago the Synthetics and Organics cannot coexist. It is absolute in this belief.

[von uber]

The mighty codex has all the answers you sex. Only do you find them in the Cult of Shepard.

Answers you sex eh? Who mentioned freud above?

[shodiswe]

Incorrect. The Leviathan did not build the Citadel. The Citadel and the relays were all built by the Reapers to speed the time between cycles.
 
And the Catalyst, assuming that is what Shepard is talking to at the end (which I don't think it is), has decided long ago the Synthetics and Organics cannot coexist. It is absolute in this belief.

Relays, yes, but I don't think anyone said the Citadel was built by the Reapers. People who learned about the Relays probably jsut assumed it since they previously thoguht the Proteans built it all.

Also, the Leviathans show that they spread throughout the galaxy showing planets with civilisations and relays next to them inking worlds on that holomap.... Or was that a misstake by Bioware?

The Inteligence had a platform and helpers before they creted the first Reaper... It's drones/helpers = Keepers maybe. The Citadel makes sesne for a place where the Keepers could have harvested Leviathans to build the first Reaper. They they went on and Harvested everyone else.
It must have had hardware, if the Citadel is it's home it makes sense that that's where it all started. Attacking a crew of a ship(citadel) would have been easier than attacking a whole planet of Leviathans.
Even after a billion years of advancement and building more Reapers the Reapers don't seem to stand a chance at attacking the Leviathans even if they send groundtroops and Dreadnaughts of the sovereign class.

[Steelcan]

the second the Crucible docked and he realized the game was up unless he tried his damn hardest to make the Reapers look like good guys

[dreamgazer]

the second the Crucible docked and he realized the game was up unless he tried his damn hardest to make the Reapers look like good guys

 

This, pretty much. 

 

"You have altered the variables".

[Bardox9]

Relays, yes, but I don't think anyone said the Citadel was built by the Reapers. People who learned about the Relays probably jsut assumed it since they previously thoguht the Proteans built it all.

Also, the Leviathans show that they spread throughout the galaxy showing planets with civilisations and relays next to them inking worlds on that holomap.... Or was that a misstake by Bioware?

The Inteligence had a platform and helpers before they creted the first Reaper... It's drones/helpers = Keepers maybe. The Citadel makes sesne for a place where the Keepers could have harvested Leviathans to build the first Reaper. They they went on and Harvested everyone else.
It must have had hardware, if the Citadel is it's home it makes sense that that's where it all started. Attacking a crew of a ship(citadel) would have been easier than attacking a whole planet of Leviathans.
Even after a billion years of advancement and building more Reapers the Reapers don't seem to stand a chance at attacking the Leviathans even if they send groundtroops and Dreadnaughts of the sovereign class.

 

From the codex of the Citadel: http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Citadel

 

"It, and the mass relays, are the creations of the Reapers, and were built to help facilitate their cycle of galactic genocide."

[FlyingSquirrel]

I think that interfacing with the Crucible and analyzing all the work that went into it - which reflected the knowledge and experiences of the current cycle as well as previously harvested species - causes the Catalyst to rethink its assumptions and consider that intelligent species have found a way to outmaneuver the Reapers and the harvests. In a Low EMS Destroy scenario, it is probably concerned that organics haven't yet advanced enough to ward off eventual extermination by synthetics, which is why it seems pissed at Shepard - in its view, the current cycle has thrown a monkey wrench into the cycles without preparing for an alternative solution. It's more cooperative in the other scenarios because it's more optimistic that whatever Shepard does will in fact succeed in preventing the complete genocide of organics.

 

I also think that this may be the best non-plot-armor explanation for why Harbinger doesn't fire at Shepard near the beam - the Catalyst may already be monitoring the situation and has decided that it will speak with Shepard directly if (s)he "earns" it by managing to board the Citadel and dock the Crucible, so it tells Harbinger to let Shepard live for the time being.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Right. "Hey Harby, don't kill Shepard. Don't fire at the Normandy."

 

Harby: "Wait. What? It's right here. I can end your problem and we can clean house."

 

Child: "No. I want to talk to this one. He has a solution."

 

Harby: "How do you know?"

 

Child: "I... just do. Just do what I say. I control you."

 

Harby: "I hate it when you do that."

 

Child: "I know. Ha ha ha. Stupid Leviathans."

 

Harby: "He's running to the beam. How about now? I have to protect the beam."

 

Child: "Shoot the others but leave Shepard alone."

 

Harby: "Awww, can I just wing him? You know, show him true power?"

 

Child: "No, you could kill him."

 

Harby: "Okay, but what if...."

 

Child: "No!"

 

Harby: "Save us."  *fires*

 

Child: "..... Dammit, you nearly killed him. Now I'm going to have to do this mind thing."

[Kabooooom]

After reading some of these posts...man, I'm gonna repost this link. I think all of you should read it if you haven't already:


http://www.gamefront...nalysis-part-1/

[Dale]

You don't know how REFRESHING it is to read intelligent & thought-provoking comments from [most] all of you (on my thread here).    

 

This is in contrast to the Steam forums that have been overrun by rampant, uncontrolled, forum thugs (juvenile delinquents)  that work in packs to hijack & derail a majority of the threads there.   So I've moved my attention & business to Origin.   If you're a moderator reading this -- job WELL DONE!   I'll buy you dinner & all the drinks you can handle next time you're at the Citadel!  

-Dale

[Bardox9]

After reading some of these posts...man, I'm gonna repost this link. I think all of you should read it if you haven't already:


http://www.gamefront...nalysis-part-1/

That is a very long and, IMO, over thought. Points for effort though.I give the Bioware writers a great deal of credit in their hidden meanings through out the series, but those 3 articles go beyond the pale. I'll buy the idea the ending, Crucible included, is just another part of the Catalyst's galactic experiment to a certain degree. I still think that everything that happens after Harbinger's blast is a dream sequence intended as a final indoctrination attempt on the Commander. Especially so for the final part with the catalyst itself. It is, again IMO, the only way to explain the oddities of that scene (no to mention the entire sequence) and Shepard's behavior in it.

 

Could be wrong, but I and others don't think the ending shows the end of the Reaper threat. Doesn't mean bioware won't blow through it ignoring such beliefs an just go off in a new direction with the Leviathans or some other monster threatening all life in the galaxy if not the cosmos itself.... still liked the article...

[Kabooooom]

That is a very long and, IMO, over thought. Points for effort though.I give the Bioware writers a great deal of credit in their hidden meanings through out the series, but those 3 articles go beyond the pale. I'll buy the idea the ending, Crucible included, is just another part of the Catalyst's galactic experiment to a certain degree. I still think that everything that happens after Harbinger's blast is a dream sequence intended as a final indoctrination attempt on the Commander. Especially so for the final part with the catalyst itself. It is, again IMO, the only way to explain the oddities of that scene (no to mention the entire sequence) and Shepard's behavior in it.

Could be wrong, but I and others don't think the ending shows the end of the Reaper threat. Doesn't mean bioware won't blow through it ignoring such beliefs an just go off in a new direction with the Leviathans or some other monster threatening all life in the galaxy if not the cosmos itself.... still liked the article...

It wasn't really over thought at all, in my opinion. It was very direct, to the point, and drew directly from in game evidence without making any (or many) assumptions.

So, I did smile a little when you said you considered it "over-thought" but then preferred IT, which is pretty much the exact opposite of it in the assumption category.

I too prefer indoctrination as my preferred ending. But I recognize that it is a head canon ending for me, and it is not what the writers intended. Like at all. It is better than what they intended, and that's why I like it. That said, I do believe they intended the ending sequences to feel dreamlike and surreal for a different reason altogether, which is why so many people (myself included) intuitively suspected it was an indoctrination illusion the first time we played.

[Bardox9]

It wasn't really over thought at all, in my opinion. It was very direct, to the point, and drew directly from in game evidence without making any (or many) assumptions.

So, I did smile a little when you said you considered it "over-thought" but then preferred IT, which is pretty much the exact opposite of it in the assumption category.

I too prefer indoctrination as my preferred ending. But I recognize that it is a head canon ending for me, and it is not what the writers intended. Like at all. It is better than what they intended, and that's why I like it. That said, I do believe they intended the ending sequences to feel dreamlike and surreal for a different reason altogether, which is why so many people (myself included) intuitively suspected it was an indoctrination illusion the first time we played.

Agreed. I doubt the the writers truly intended the ending to reach the lvls that IT usually goes to. Too much left open to interpretation of images, sounds, and dialog. While I will not be buying ME4 or any future DLCs if the ME3 ending is not definitively resolved, I am interested in the direction Bioware is going to take the series and if it will live up to the epic tale to date... plot holes and all

[Kabooooom]

Agreed. I doubt the the writers truly intended the ending to reach the lvls that IT usually goes to. Too much left open to interpretation of images, sounds, and dialog. While I will not be buying ME4 or any future DLCs if the ME3 ending is not definitively resolved, I am interested in the direction Bioware is going to take the series and if it will live up to the epic tale to date... plot holes and all

My guess is you will be disappointed. I think they are most likely going to avoid ME3's ending entirely - not canonize an ending, but simply avoid all three. They have pretty much said as much that this is what they would like to do. I don't think Ark Theory is necessarily the route they will take, but I do think it exemplifies the sort of scenario that I think they will likely try to take. They will attempt to set up a situation that is divorced from the prior trilogy.

But, they may end up Surprising me bycanonizing an ending or (god forbid) homogenizing all three. I just think avoid the shitshow that resulted is waaaay too tempting from a writing and business standpoint.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

My guess is you will be disappointed. I think they are most likely going to avoid ME3's ending entirely - not canonize an ending, but simply avoid all three. They have pretty much said as much that this is what they would like to do. I don't think Ark Theory is necessarily the route they will take, but I do think it exemplifies the sort of scenario that I think they will likely try to take. They will attempt to set up a situation that is divorced from the prior trilogy.

But, they may end up Surprising me bycanonizing an ending or (god forbid) homogenizing all three. I just think avoid the shitshow that resulted is waaaay too tempting from a writing and business standpoint.

 

But it's pretty simple....

 

1) Destroy - we repair the mass relays, citadel, and are in the process of repairing our civs.

2) Control - the reapers repair the mass relays, citadel, and we are in the process of repairing our civilizations. Shepalyst takes the reapers into dark space for 50,000 years, which is forever as far as our game timeline is concerned.

3) Synthesis - "We have tried similar solutions in the past but they have always failed. It is not something that can be forced." This doesn't work either. The reapers repair everything and return to dark space forever.

 

The ending dilemma is solved.

[Kabooooom]

But it's pretty simple....

1) Destroy - we repair the mass relays, citadel, and are in the process of repairing our civs.
2) Control - the reapers repair the mass relays, citadel, and we are in the process of repairing our civilizations. Shepalyst takes the reapers into dark space for 50,000 years, which is forever as far as our game timeline is concerned.
3) Synthesis - "We have tried similar solutions in the past but they have always failed. It is not something that can be forced." This doesn't work either. The reapers repair everything and return to dark space forever.

The ending dilemma is solved.

That was the homogenizing idea that I was referring to. I find that to be much worse than avoidance altogether, because then your choice at the end of ME3 really was meaningless and didn't matter at all. At least by avoiding it, destroyers/controllers/synthesizers/refusers are ALL happy, and their ending choice is effectively their own canon since one ending wasn't canonized above all others and since they weren't homogenized into being purposeless.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You realize that no matter what you do half of the fan base is going to be angry about it, right?

[Bardox9]

My guess is you will be disappointed. I think they are most likely going to avoid ME3's ending entirely - not canonize an ending, but simply avoid all three. They have pretty much said as much that this is what they would like to do. I don't think Ark Theory is necessarily the route they will take, but I do think it exemplifies the sort of scenario that I think they will likely try to take. They will attempt to set up a situation that is divorced from the prior trilogy.

But, they may end up Surprising me bycanonizing an ending or (god forbid) homogenizing all three. I just think avoid the shitshow that resulted is waaaay too tempting from a writing and business standpoint.

 

My fear is they will completely ignore the ME3 ending as they did the ME2 ending where you either destroy the collector base or just radiated the place. One ending to ME2 even resulted in Shepard dying. Yet it is barely mentioned in ME3. It is made irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. Will this be the fate of the choice at the end of ME3? I hope "no", but fear "yes".

[Dubozz]

something something mac walters something something artistic integrity something something

[SwobyJ]

I can explain it... It didn't happen. It wasn't real. It was a dream sequence. Everything the Catalyst says is an attempt to get Shepard to choose control or Synthesis. It is attempting to indoctrinate you.

 

Except, you know, when you have very low EMS and destroyed the Collector Base. At that point, it's all "Hey you can go ahead and destroy us, and I'll explain how."

 

Yep.

[SwobyJ]

the second the Crucible docked and he realized the game was up unless he tried his damn hardest to make the Reapers look like good guys

 

This, pretty much. 

 

"You have altered the variables".

 

Honestly.. yes.

 

However, we get to, as players, direct the terms of this engagement.

 

At the lowest EMS, it really does appear that the Catalyst is forced to facilitate Shepard's will. It doesn't want to. It doesn't like that Shepard is there. But it is 'hacked' just enough to let it happen. Depending on your ME2 action, only Control or only Destroy is available. IMO there's the low level and high level of storytelling here. The low level involves the keeping of the Brain or Heart of the Human Reaper, giving the Crucible more destructive power or computing power. The high level (IMO again) may instead involve Shepard's will - that he is able to choose what he was previously inclined towards; keeping or destroying Reaper tech.

 

At the more medium/high EMS, the Catalyst is forced to facilitate Shepard's will, but this isn't as important, because it also in some way WANTS this to happen. The new possibilities are open, and it realizes that there really could be a better way past the Cycle for once, even though it doesn't have much optimism for Destroy, and doesn't 'individually' have a liking for what Control will do to him.

 

At the top EMS, specifically Synthesis here, the Catalyst is still forced to facilitate Shepard's will, and still wants to do so while having reservations - but now is pretty much entirely on board with Shepard being there, making a decision, and creating a future that appears to be great for both organics and synthetics (from its POV at least). Its speaking to you because it has to, but its using flowery language about Synthesis because it wants to.

Those players anti-Synthesis can interpret this as the Catalyst masking language of just another Reaper being made, or Shepard being indoctrinated, or everyone turning into husks, or all 3.

Those players pro-Synthesis can interpret this as Shepard being a savior, everyone reaching the full positive potential of Reaper technology, and peace between all synthetic and organic peoples being possible, even as 'synthetic' and 'organic' themselves become erased as more definite terms.

 

My own interpretation is a mixture of all of that, and is more rare (and I realize is quite possibly wrong). I think that all of this journey Shepard has been through, is to some degree a virtual illusion. Our Crucible choice creates the world/population/code of a new and final Reaper, as the next game wakes us up to the 'real Mass Effect world', which will involve this new Reaper and its composition and use (a tool/enemy in Destroy, an ally/danger in Control, and inspiration/terror in Synthesis).

 

~~~

 

I believe in IT (by that I mean the core concept of it). I believe it is a valid interpretation. I do think that Shepard, whereever he is and whatever he is, is only seeing representations of his choices in the 'Crucible chamber'. However, I think the 'literal' perspective, to some degree, is always valid as well. I think there is multilevel storytelling occurring that at least for now, is keeping us in the dark.

 

~~~

 

Anyway, yes, I think there's several things going on. Yes, the 'Catalyst' is hacked. But yes, it also chooses its level of engagement with Shepard, and how it will describe things. We can regard it as the outright enemy that we've been often prepared to view it as, a potential temporary ally that we've been somewhat prepared to accept it as, or potential temporary friend that we've been barely prepared to understand it as.

 

In itself, this isn't much of a problem. However, making the last conversation of a trilogy that is much more 'war' focused than any other major concept (like 'exploration'), be shown this way, can be screwy. People were outright prepared to make the Reapers pay, and the Catalyst meeting swerved to the side and went 'Hey you, you're wrong'. Even in IT, that is a situation where Shepard (in ME3 itself) is NOT making the Reapers pay, but is mostly under their power while lying in rubble, with the breath scene being the only sign of hope that Shepard will return and kick ass.

People wanted a victory in front of their eyes that they could absorb, and it didn't (emotionally) happen until EC (barely).

 

The Catalyst (and the later R/B/G waves) never gave us the impression that we achieved much, even as the implications of the final decision were huge. And even as some like Iakus might say - they were too huge. The ME3 ending is kinda paradoxical, and not comfortable, and the Catalyst's whole 'You're the first one here so my solution won't work anymore' deal just added to the confusion.

[SwobyJ]

I think that interfacing with the Crucible and analyzing all the work that went into it - which reflected the knowledge and experiences of the current cycle as well as previously harvested species - causes the Catalyst to rethink its assumptions and consider that intelligent species have found a way to outmaneuver the Reapers and the harvests. In a Low EMS Destroy scenario, it is probably concerned that organics haven't yet advanced enough to ward off eventual extermination by synthetics, which is why it seems pissed at Shepard - in its view, the current cycle has thrown a monkey wrench into the cycles without preparing for an alternative solution. It's more cooperative in the other scenarios because it's more optimistic that whatever Shepard does will in fact succeed in preventing the complete genocide of organics.

 

I also think that this may be the best non-plot-armor explanation for why Harbinger doesn't fire at Shepard near the beam - the Catalyst may already be monitoring the situation and has decided that it will speak with Shepard directly if (s)he "earns" it by managing to board the Citadel and dock the Crucible, so it tells Harbinger to let Shepard live for the time being.

"Why are you here?"

 

"But I can't make them (the solutions) happen, and I won't."

 

Personally I think Harbinger would have been quite fine to let Shepard into the indoctrinating beam (I really don't think that FOB datapad meant nothing) and become weakened and alone enough to be harvested.

 

But the Crucible docking did happen, and it did change things. IMO it hacked the Catalyst to speak to Shepard and get the change happening through Shepard. To act as the catalyst. Not always a willing one.

[shepskisaac]

I think that interfacing with the Crucible and analyzing all the work that went into it - which reflected the knowledge and experiences of the current cycle as well as previously harvested species - causes the Catalyst to rethink its assumptions and consider that intelligent species have found a way to outmaneuver the Reapers and the harvests. In a Low EMS Destroy scenario, it is probably concerned that organics haven't yet advanced enough to ward off eventual extermination by synthetics, which is why it seems pissed at Shepard - in its view, the current cycle has thrown a monkey wrench into the cycles without preparing for an alternative solution. It's more cooperative in the other scenarios because it's more optimistic that whatever Shepard does will in fact succeed in preventing the complete genocide of organics.

 

I also think that this may be the best non-plot-armor explanation for why Harbinger doesn't fire at Shepard near the beam - the Catalyst may already be monitoring the situation and has decided that it will speak with Shepard directly if (s)he "earns" it by managing to board the Citadel and dock the Crucible, so it tells Harbinger to let Shepard live for the time being.

The only instance it's "nice" is when Synthesis is present. Otherwise, he's pissed, mad etc. I think it shows clearly that he doesn't really want to help Shep if Synthesis is not an option and is simply forced to do it due after rewrite.

 

Here's a link to scenario where both Destroy and Control are available but no Synthesis - http://youtu.be/JrAlm-sn2So?t=8m17s

 

Cathy says it quite clealry, he would be forced to accept Shep becoming new Catalyst, and he's bound by the Destroy/Control choices. Has to present them to Shep even.