I'm not understanding KainD's position at all. First, we have:
It is black and white. You either have morals or you don't.
And then:
And what are moral greys then?
But then:
1) Morals are subjective 100%. ( Edit: ninjad )
Last I checked, "subjective morals = moral grey", so what is even...?
No one said anything about only performing actions that benefit everyone, im speaking about actions that only benefit you while taking innocent lives
There are no innocent lives. And if you don't do actions that benefit just you personally, and don't do actions that benefit everyone, what's the criteria for people that are going to benefit from the actions? What makes them so special?
Your perspective doesnt speak for the general populace
And?
Meaningless to you, again thats one perspective vs the world
Everybody has their own perspective, it's one vs one vs one etc.
I'm not understanding KainD's position
There are two positions an individual may hold in regards to morality:
1) Evil and Good exist.
2) Evil and Good don't exist.
While the fact that 2 positions exist in the first place makes morality subjective.
There are two positions an individual may hold in regards to morality:
1) Evil and Good exist.
2) Evil and Good don't exist.
While the fact that 2 positions exist in the first place makes morality subjective.
When I talk about moral greys, I talk within the bounds of the first - that Good and Evil exist. The grey comes from situations where "Not sure if Good or Evil, if either." See my earlier mention of consuming Avernus' concoction. To reject the notion of Good and Evil entirely is to be a sociopath.
When I talk about moral greys, I talk within the bounds of the first - that Good and Evil exist. The grey comes from situations where "Not sure if Good or Evil, if either." See my earlier mention of consuming Avernus' concoction. To reject the notion of Good and Evil entirely is to be a sociopath.
Hey im not sociopath... 
To reject the notion of Good and Evil entirely is to be a sociopath.
And some of us are, and we are people just like you, just with a different outlook. We all have a little different outlook.
There are no innocent lives. And if you don't do actions that benefit just you personally, and don't do actions that benefit everyone, what's the criteria for people that are going to benefit from the actions? What makes them so special?
And?
Everybody has their own perspective, it's one vs one vs one etc.
WHy arent there innocent people? Who said otherwise? Thats not what im talking about at all, did you ignore when i said im only speaking about actions that benefit the individual at the cost of killing people
Reality is, a majority of people dont share these notions
Depends on the perspective people can share the same ideals, i dont know why you'd argue otherwise
WHy arent there innocent people? Who said otherwise? Thats not what im talking about at all, did you ignore when i said im only speaking about actions that benefit the individual at the cost of killing people
Because innocents works only in the context. I've said it so many times already.
People wage war all the time, for their benefit.
Reality is, a majority of people dont share these notions
So what?
Depends on the perspective people can share the same ideals, i dont know why you'd argue otherwise
Numbers are not really relevant, what matters is the main principal.
Because innocents works only in the context. I've said it so many times already.
People wage war all the time, for their benefit.
So what?
Numbers are not really relevant, what matters is the main principal.
No, not everything is subjective, someone being innocent can be a fact. How does the fact that people wage war for their benefit, support anything you've said?
because morals can exist within a group of people, regardless to you not sharing them. Killing people with no reason beyond benefiting your own gain for power, is evil by definition, regardless to what you think
And the principal is, you find nothing wrong with an evil act, you not sharing that notion doesnt make it any less evil
No, not everything is subjective
No, not everything, but morals are.
Killing people with no reason beyond benefiting your own gain for power, is evil by definition, regardless to what you think
And the principal is, you find nothing wrong with an evil act, you not sharing that notion doesnt make it any less evil
Here's the problem:
''Evil - morally wrong or bad; immoral''
And morals are subjective. What I personally think makes all the difference.
What I think just doesn't make the actions any less good or evil to other people, but that is irrelevant, as we are talking about universal concepts, which do not apply here.
Awww yeah! Kain laying down that hard core first semester philosophy class rhetoric!
Show those filthy peasants how deep and intellectual you are while spouting off whatever you wish because you are an evolved being!!!!
No, not everything, but morals are.
Here's the problem:
''Evil - morally wrong or bad; immoral''
And morals are subjective. What I personally think makes all the difference.
What I think just doesn't make the actions any less good or evil to other people, but that is irrelevant, as we are talking about universal concepts, which do not apply here.
And why does it not apply?
The notions you've presented, are sociopathic by definition
Awww yeah! Kain laying down that hard core first semester philosophy class rhetoric!
Show those filthy peasants how deep and intellectual you are while spouting off whatever you wish because you are an evolved being!!!!
Lol, I told you many times, I've never taken any philosophy courses, some things are really worth thinking about imo. It's true however that many never bother to wonder.
And why does it not apply?
How does that question even come about? Read it through one more time:
Morals = Subjective. Universal = Objective. Universal concepts do not apply to morals. Evil and good are about morals. There is no objective good and evil.
The notions you've presented, are sociopathic by definition
Well yeah, I am a sociopath. What about it?
When I talk about moral greys, I talk within the bounds of the first - that Good and Evil exist. The grey comes from situations where "Not sure if Good or Evil, if either." See my earlier mention of consuming Avernus' concoction. To reject the notion of Good and Evil entirely is to be a sociopath.
Objectively speaking, good and evil do not exist. We have views and opinions on right and wrong. Recognizing that does not make one a sociopath. The inability to feel empathy is what makes one a sociopath. One can recognize the subjectivity of morality but still feel empathy and categorize things as right/wrong.
One can recognize the subjectivity of morality but still feel empathy and categorize things as right/wrong.
Yes that's what most everybody does without thinking too much about it. They judge right and wrong from their own personal perspective and feel empathy towards people that have the same moral views as them.
How does that question even come about? Read it through one more time:
Morals = Subjective. Universal = Objective. Universal concepts do not apply to morals. Evil and good are about morals. There is no objective good and evil.
Well yeah, I am a sociopath. What about it?
Thats the problem, the idea of morals being subjective, is in itself subjective. Its a debate within itself, fact is, Universally speaking, killing people who have done you no wrong is accepted as evil, criminals who have committed that crime accept this, people in war accept this, the only people who deny it are sociopaths who by definition wouldnt be a part of that universal principle.
Morals as a whole is a different topic, im only speaking about the act of killing an innocent life for ones own personal benefit
Thats the problem, the idea of morals being subjective, is in itself subjective. Its a debate within itself, fact is, Universally speaking, killing people who have done you no wrong is accepted as evil, criminals who have committed that crime accept this, people in war accept this, the only people who deny it are sociopaths who by definition wouldnt be a part of that universal principle.
So how is it a universal principle if something is not a part of it?
So how is it a universal principle if something is not a part of it?
"affecting, or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases."
"affecting, or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases."
So going back to the original topic:
What does morally grey mean in your particular group?
So going back to the original topic:
What does morally grey mean in your particular group?
That question was answered on the first page...
Grey is what you get when you mix black and white together. Morality is no different...something I find largely subjective. Generally speaking, good and evil are loose, generic terms that we as society agree upon as being good and evil. Examples most of us agree on would be helping less fortunate people without hope of reward or murdering a rival that stands in the way of our personal success. Where it becomes morally grey is when you murder a group of people (often labeled evil) who threaten a larger group of people...or even less dire helping out less fortunate people because of the positive publicity it will garner you corporation.
I know right! In many Bioware games committing 'evil' actions generally doesn't benefit you in the long term. For instance I absolutely loved playing as a Sith Inquisitor but sometimes I carried out what the game considered 'light side' so I could advance my long term goals. Anyway I sincerely hope that Inquisition fixes this problem and makes more branching choices. It isn't always A or B there is usually a C.I hope we can play a manipulative, cruel bastard.
I'm so tired of being forced into good goody or stupid evil. You can be evil and intelligent.
Though BW hasn't had me forced into being goody goody in the DA series
[...] Anyway I sincerely hope that Inquisition fixes this problem and makes more branching choices. It isn't always A or B there is usually a C.
Agreed. The question of "what is morality" or "what is morally right" is certainly not so easy to answer. Maybe that's why video games tend to simplify matters. It would be a welcome step if DAI shows the whole range of possibilities, so, as you said, A, B and C.
Speaking of grey, I thought The Witcher did a very nice job of portraying it. No matter whose side you chose, your choice was never entirely good or bad. That's what I liked about it. I like choices were the player is forced to think about it. That being said, I probably prefer a non-visible system were you can shape your character's morality through his actions and their consequences.
In addition, this thread inspired me to do a little bit of research about morality in videogames. I came across this article. It mentions Mass Effect, so I thought some of you might find it interesting.
Thank you that was a very interesting and well written article. I wonder how the game deals with difficult dilemmas where the player character can determine who is 'right'. I believe one power of the Inquisitor is being a mediator and judge in certain conflicts, since we are an international organization beholden to no one this gives a great deal of leeway when it comes to settling disputes. I imagine wecan face repercussions to our rulings.Agreed. The question of "what is morality" or "what is morally right" is certainly not so easy to answer. Maybe that's why video games tend to simplify matters. It would be a welcome step if DAI shows the whole range of possibilities, so, as you said, A, B and C.
Speaking of grey, I thought The Witcher did a very nice job of portraying it. No matter whose side you chose, your choice was never entirely good or bad. That's what I liked about it. I like choices were the player is forced to think about it. That being said, I probably prefer a non-visible system were you can shape your character's morality through his actions and their consequences.
In addition, this thread inspired me to do a little bit of research about morality in videogames. I came across this article. It mentions Mass Effect, so I thought some of you might find it interesting.
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