606 réponses à ce sujet

[leadintea]

Just say you don't like the way she looks. Christ. This isn't rocket science. If you wanna be ass, then be an ass. Just don't try to pretend to get offended or confused when people call you misogynistic because you couldn't say what you wanna say in a non-offensive manner.

[Gtdef]

Just say you don't like the way she looks. Christ. This isn't rocket science. If you wanna be ass, then be an ass. Just don't try to pretend to get offended or confused when people call you misogynistic because you couldn't say what you wanna say in a non-offensive manner.

 

 

Same for you, what happens if someone asks why.

And why should I not expand on why I dislike her? Is my negative opinion less important than your positive one?

 

If there is anyone at all here on this damn forum that doesn't like her for her masculine features and is smarter than me, can you give a summary that expands on these features without prompting someone strongly opinionated to say "Oh you just think she looks like a man"? It's hardly possible. But that's the nature of the problem. Some people don't give much thought on it. What I'm advocating is that enough with the bashing just because someone thinks differently than you.

[AltanIV]

And what happens if someone asks me why?

 

Explain it with aspects of her personality instead of just limiting yourself to her outward appearance. And chose your words wisely. 

[mikeymoonshine]

And I'm all about criticizing, but as you say that I downplay your angle, I think you substitute the word bashing with criticizing, don't you?

 

And my point still stands, I don't see many bald men with strong lips coming here and saying that you are all vile misanthropes for saying that we look like nosferatu (Solas reference). Also I'm asking you, what should I do. Lets say I think that Cassandra is ugly. How should I express it without being called a misogynist? Help me out here.

 

Also what I do is different because I don't make it us vs them like most people here do. I don't claim that god is on my side when I bash opinions.

 

Um no, I was making a general point about freedom of speech, not what was going on in this thread. 

 

That's a false comparison, allot of people did complain about the way Solas's looks were talked about but that has nothing to do with this thread and as far as I know nobody has said that here. 

 

Why do you need to say ugly? That's such a personal and insulting word to use, why can't you just say "I don't find her attractive" or better yet "I'm not interested in romancing her". You don't actually need to specify why, of course you are free to but it is your choice and if you choose to say things that are insulting to others then expect some of them to react to it. 

 

Well you do generalise your opponents an awful lot. There really hasn't been as many people shouting "misogynist" as you seem to be making out.

[robertthebard]

Just say that she is not to your liking and not that she is ugly this way you won't hurt anyone.

What? So people are only allowed to have and express opinions that conform to a particular set of beliefs? That's not expression, that's censorship. Especially if the opinion expressed isn't against the ToS. I don't exist at other's convenience, and people that know me IRL know that full well. If I think something sucks, I'm going to say it. If I think something is ugly, I'm going to say it. It's not up to you to censor how I express my opinions, it's up to me, and rules of the forum in which I'm expressing them, whether that be an actual forum, such as this one, or a live venue. If I'm not being vulgar, you have no more right to censor me than I have to censor you. If the reality of differing opinions is such that it actually hurts someone, I have to ask, why?

[PessimistPanda]

Oh my goooooooooooooooooooooooood, the "freedom of speech" argument again.

 

"Freedom of speech" isn't protection from criticism. If you're free to say rude things, then other people are also free to nag you for being rude.

[Gtdef]

Explain it with aspects of her personality instead of just limiting yourself to her outward appearance. And chose your words wisely. 

 

Why should I compromise? It's not like I know her personality. All I know about her is some one liners and how she looks, nothing else.

 

 

 

 

Well you do generalise your opponents an awful lot. There really hasn't been as many people shouting "misogynist" as you seem to be making out.

 

 

You make it sound like I'm playing the blame game. I don't. What I'm getting at is that people jump on the idealism bandwagon before they even read a post. Take the Qunari pic thread in scuttlebutt. Sure some were rude and prompted a certain response, they deserved it. But then some comes that even tries to be civil and gets the same treatment. I'm standing up to this.

 

And if I'm generalizing about that, then the same thing other people do about the whole "Cassandra is ugly" thing. You will see it 15 times per page and 14 of them are in quotes.

[mikeymoonshine]

What? So people are only allowed to have and express opinions that conform to a particular set of beliefs? That's not expression, that's censorship. Especially if the opinion expressed isn't against the ToS. I don't exist at other's convenience, and people that know me IRL know that full well. If I think something sucks, I'm going to say it. If I think something is ugly, I'm going to say it. It's not up to you to censor how I express my opinions, it's up to me, and rules of the forum in which I'm expressing them, whether that be an actual forum, such as this one, or a live venue. If I'm not being vulgar, you have no more right to censor me than I have to censor you. If the reality of differing opinions is such that it actually hurts someone, I have to ask, why?

 

I find it interesting that you cut out this part of what Leadintea said

 

"If you wanna be ass, then be an ass. Just don't try to pretend to get offended or confused when people call you misogynistic because you couldn't say what you wanna say in a non-offensive manner."

 

That is in no way advocating censorship, it's just advice on how not to insult people, why can't you guys understand the difference? Nobody is saying you don't have the right to say offensive things, we are saying if you do people will react to it. 

[9TailsFox]

And what happens if someone asks me why?

Also why expanding on the negative features is such a different thing than expanding on positive features? I don't just want to give thumbs up or thumbs down, I may want to make a case and give a reason.

Apparently in this age you can't have negative opinion. And if someone is oppressed they always right.

And basically all discussions go like this.

[AltanIV]

What? So people are only allowed to have and express opinions that conform to a particular set of beliefs? That's not expression, that's censorship. Especially if the opinion expressed isn't against the ToS. I don't exist at other's convenience, and people that know me IRL know that full well. If I think something sucks, I'm going to say it. If I think something is ugly, I'm going to say it. It's not up to you to censor how I express my opinions, it's up to me, and rules of the forum in which I'm expressing them, whether that be an actual forum, such as this one, or a live venue. If I'm not being vulgar, you have no more right to censor me than I have to censor you. If the reality of differing opinions is such that it actually hurts someone, I have to ask, why?

 

In what way did say to censor anything ? True, I'm not a native english speaker as such I probably lack the words to express myself from time to time. But all in all I never told him to "censor" his words. 

[KaiserShep]

Only the mods can censor. We plebeians can only resort to booing until our fingers are numb.

[PessimistPanda]

Only the mods can censor. We plebeians can only resort to booing until our fingers are numb.

I'll start.

 

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[robertthebard]

Oh my goooooooooooooooooooooooood, the "freedom of speech" argument again.
 
"Freedom of speech" isn't protection from criticism. If you're free to say rude things, then other people are also free to nag you for being rude.

Freedom of speech on a game forum is limited to the ToS. Saying a character in a video game is ugly does not violate any of those. Calling posters names for saying it, however, is a direct violation of the ToS, but should be allowed because "but he said she was ugly"?

[mikeymoonshine]

Freedom of speech on a game forum is limited to the ToS. Saying a character in a video game is ugly does not violate any of those. Calling posters names for saying it, however, is a direct violation of the ToS, but should be allowed because "but he said she was ugly"?

 

Who called who names? Also saying she is ugly is calling names and we have already established that by saying Cassandra is ugly because of her features you are essentially saying any woman with those features is ugly. 

[robertthebard]

I find it interesting that you cut out this part of what Leadintea said

 
 
 
 
 

"If you wanna be ass, then be an ass. Just don't try to pretend to get offended or confused when people call you misogynistic because you couldn't say what you wanna say in a non-offensive manner."

 
 
 
 

That is in no way advocating censorship, it's just advice on how not to insult people, why can't you guys understand the difference? Nobody is saying you don't have the right to say offensive things, we are saying if you do people will react to it.

I guess I should have left it, you're absolutely right, because it bears out my point far more poignantly than I what I actually quoted: It's ok if we call you names for saying Cass is ugly, even though saying Cass is ugly doesn't violate the ToS of the forums, but calling you names does. Thank you for pointing that out, I truly appreciate it.

Edit for quote tags.

Modifié par robertthebard, 14 juin 2014 - 01:52 .

[Gtdef]

 

You can state whatever opinions you want in whatever you want. Like I said, you can be an ass about it, just don't pretend to be confused or hurt when someone takes offense to it and calls you out on it.

 

And why are you even telling me that? You think I'm offended because some misguided idealist may have called me a misogynist? Or making an argument in this age means that someone is butthurt and grasping at straws to make a point?

 

Or perhaps you think that my opinion of Cassandra makes me automatically an ass. If so what does this makes you?

 

 

 

you are essentially saying any woman with those features is ugly. 

 

 

No you don't. Having some similar features doesn't make someone identical to an other. I at least don't think that way. Some may think that way, but saying that everyone does that is a stereotype.

[mikeymoonshine]

Why should I compromise? It's not like I know her personality. All I know about her is some one liners and how she looks, nothing else.

 

 

 

You make it sound like I'm playing the blame game. I don't. What I'm getting at is that people jump on the idealism bandwagon before they even read a post. Take the Qunari pic thread in scuttlebutt. Sure some were rude and prompted a certain response, they deserved it. But then some comes that even tries to be civil and gets the same treatment. I'm standing up to this.

 

And if I'm generalizing about that, then the same thing other people do about the whole "Cassandra is ugly" thing. You will see it 15 times per page and 14 of them are in quotes.

 

So basically this is some crusade against SJW's? Most of the people here have not been saying or doing any of this, maybe some of them have but you are lumping them all together. 

[Char]

Logical Girls Bake Top Quiche

 

Mmmmmm quiche. I love quiche. 

 

Why is it every thread I've been in today mentions food? Its anathema to my diet

 

On another note and in general reply to everyone:

I absolutely believe everyone in this thread is entitled to their opinion. Even if I don't agree with it, your right to have an opinion is something precious and important. However, I do think that people can be mindful of the feelings of others when we express our opinions. No-one lives in a vacuum, our words and deeds all have consequences, intended or not. It's not censorship to ask that views be expressed with consideration and respect. That is what separates intelligent debate from people being hurt and insulted. It is absolutely OK that there are people who don't think Cassandra is attractive. It is absolutely OK that some people are sad that they can't romance Sera.

What is not OK is when things become stated as absolutes. Eg "Cassandra looks like a man"- that's a statement, not an opinion. It assumes this is definitely the case, that everyone agrees, and implies that looking "like a man" is automatically a bad thing. "I don't personally find Cassandra attractive because in my opinion she has quite masculine features and that isn't my preference" is an opinion. It's not my opinion- I think she's striking, but the phrasing makes a lot of difference.

[PessimistPanda]

You know it's true though. Why else would you want every single romance option to be available to you other than your thirst and greed? Your companions are well written characters with their own clearly defined thoughts and feelings. It stands to reason that their sexuality is also defined and shouldn't be shaped by the player, so why are you so adamant for every character to bend to your will? Sexuality plays a part in a person's personality and the devs have decided to have all your characters have their own thoughts and feelings about it, instead of just catering to any and every single PC's desires, and I applaud them for it.

No, my "endless thirst" is why I have a subscription to Men.com.

 

If all I wanted was to see the characters naked (which I don't and, let's face it, probably won't), then I can just make the types of characters that would appeal to them. But I don't want that. I want to experience gay romances, and those are the only kind I am interested in.

 

There are people lacking a "defined sexuality" in real life, so your notion that a defined sexuality is a requisite of being a "well written character" with "thoughts and feelings" is just total nonsense. People can be sexually fluid and still have firm opinions on politics, or the best pizza topping, or any other topic. The characters in DA2 didn't bend to the player's will, and anyone who thinks they did obviously hasn't actually played the game.

 

But even putting all that aside, is that the same excuse you use for DA:O and the Mass Effect games? That Lesbian and Gay gamers should just "deal with" having limited or no options? Because the characters were "well-written"? Is having "well-written" imaginary friends more important than the marginalization of real minorities?

[robertthebard]

Who called who names? Also saying she is ugly is calling names and we have already established that by saying Cassandra is ugly because of her features you are essentially saying any woman with those features is ugly.

See my last post.

She is not a real person. I don't know why I feel the need to point this out, but suddenly, it occurs to me that perhaps I should. I have seen nothing that establishes that calling a work of fiction ugly reflects on real people, save people that think it's ok to say "you're being misogynistic for calling her ugly". Such as your initial question here? It's not name calling if you believe it to be true? After all, you believe that calling Cass ugly, a viewpoint I don't share, is the same thing as calling real people ugly. I submit to you that, in fact, it wasn't the person that thinks Cass is ugly that projected that opinion to real people, but the people that twisted it to apply to people that may resemble Cass. So if I flipped the script, they would go "oh yeah, I guess you're right" and move on?

[PessimistPanda]

Lol, you don't understand why real women might be slightly offended by the notion that fictional women are obligated to be pretty in order to appeal to male audiences?

[Ribosome]

Nobody called anyone a misogynist in this thread, though.
In your imagination? Maybe.

[PessimistPanda]

But I was certainly thinking it loudly!

[mikeymoonshine]

See my last post.

She is not a real person. I don't know why I feel the need to point this out, but suddenly, it occurs to me that perhaps I should. I have seen nothing that establishes that calling a work of fiction ugly reflects on real people, save people that think it's ok to say "you're being misogynistic for calling her ugly". Such as your initial question here? It's not name calling if you believe it to be true? After all, you believe that calling Cass ugly, a viewpoint I don't share, is the same thing as calling real people ugly. I submit to you that, in fact, it wasn't the person that thinks Cass is ugly that projected that opinion to real people, but the people that twisted it to apply to people that may resemble Cass. So if I flipped the script, they would go "oh yeah, I guess you're right" and move on?

 

It may not be intentional but it is essentially the same(and remember I said essentially). I was specifically talking about those who say "she's ugly" and "she looks like a man". Those statements together say that women with those kinds of features are ugly and unfeminine, how do they not say that? 

 

Also, I only brought this up at all because a woman on this forum complained that she felt like she was being called ugly for having similar features. 

 

You defend that but then criticize people for calling other people's views Misogynistic, that's a criticism of an opinion and not a person.

[robertthebard]

Lol, you don't understand why real women might be slightly offended by the notion that fictional women are obligated to be pretty in order to appeal to male audiences?

My last GF didn't fit into the "pretty" stereotype. She's a lot more like Cass, only she was a bodybuilder, not a soldier in a medieval army. So no, I don't see why you feel the need to project opinions about a fictional character onto real people, other than to be confrontational? I've done the Talimance, is it because she was exceptionally beautiful, or because I liked her character? You see, you're trying to lump into a category that I don't fit in. It may be easier for you, but it's inaccurate. My reaction was more to "you should censor your opinions so as to not offend people, or be prepared to be called misogynistic".

I think people should look at the reality of the situation, which is, quite simply, that what someone thinks about Cassandra's appearance doesn't really matter, at all, let alone outside of the these forums/other game forums. Attempting to justify it by saying "but real women might look like her, and are, by association, being called ugly too" doesn't reflect the intent of the person that thinks she's ugly, but instead reflects the need to make every issue a real life social issue, even if real life doesn't apply. Real life doesn't apply, it's a discussion about in game characters that are, by definition, made up. Now, if Cass wants to come here and defend her honor, she'll have my full support.