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Lol. "I can't be a misogynist! I dated a bodybuilder in real life and an alien in a video game!"
I didn't call you a misogynist, dude. But you are looking more and more like one all the time, and it has nothing to do with the women you supposedly date and everything to do with the things you are saying.
Also, are you seriously saying that fiction does not, and cannot have any relevance to real life?
These “she looks like a man” sorts of criticisms are not ok.
Feeling confused/threatened because someone doesn't have a stereotypically feminine face or body or build, doesn't mean it should become open season on questioning their gender. It’s, in effect, saying “You are so unattractive to me that I have decided you don’t even count as a woman anymore. You are a fake woman. You are incorrect. And you need to conform.”
It's pretty offensive and, yes, misogynistic.
My last GF didn't fit into the "pretty" stereotype. She's a lot more like Cass, only she was a bodybuilder, not a soldier in a medieval army. So no, I don't see why you feel the need to project opinions about a fictional character onto real people, other than to be confrontational? I've done the Talimance, is it because she was exceptionally beautiful, or because I liked her character? You see, you're trying to lump into a category that I don't fit in. It may be easier for you, but it's inaccurate. My reaction was more to "you should censor your opinions so as to not offend people, or be prepared to be called misogynistic".
I think people should look at the reality of the situation, which is, quite simply, that what someone thinks about Cassandra's appearance doesn't really matter, at all, let alone outside of the these forums/other game forums. Attempting to justify it by saying "but real women might look like her, and are, by association, being called ugly too" doesn't reflect the intent of the person that thinks she's ugly, but instead reflects the need to make every issue a real life social issue, even if real life doesn't apply. Real life doesn't apply, it's a discussion about in game characters that are, by definition, made up. Now, if Cass wants to come here and defend her honor, she'll have my full support.
...All the more reason to know better. You see, on the internet, we don't see your real life, we only see what you project, and if that doesn't sound very... well, great, whatever you said is gonna be subjected to criticism, whether you're a saint in real life or not. The thing is, someone called a female character "masculine" and said so in a negative way- that this character's physical appearance doesn't fit this socially constructed ideal of beauty you see everywhere, not just in video games. And because she's not "pretty" in their eyes, this is an "affront to their gaming experience", or something similar along those lines. So, yeah- that doesn't bode too well for the person who said that because of some unfortunate implications that this character is only worth the attention if she's "pretty enough".
So basically this is some crusade against SJW's? Most of the people here have not been saying or doing any of this, maybe some of them have but you are lumping them all together.
I like how you accuse me of downplaying or overgeneralizating and then you use words like crusade. It happened in one thread, it happened in another, I saw it now again and I'm in the mood of addressing it. Is that any different than what most people do? I'm addressing everyone cause I want counterarguments. It's a behavior I don't fully understand and I want to see what prompts it and what the arguments of those that practice it are.
Everyone understands what I'm talking about. if you followed the threads on female qunari, or some others in this section you know the situation in all it's glory. It saved time for me to say "people do this" instead of going back into the thread and quoting each one of them. If you don't want to participate or if you think I'm a jerk that just wants to stir trouble then you can ignore me. If you do I won't have anything else to say. I started something and participating on it. When it ends it ends. No hard feelings. It's not like I'll see you on another thread and I'll think "oh this is the annoying person from the other thread that disagrees with me".
On the other hand if I don't kick it up a notch, people will never take my point seriously. They will just continue posting one liners and make fun of me.
It may not be intentional but it is essentially the same(and remember I said essentially). I was specifically talking about those who say "she's ugly" and "she looks like a man". Those statements together say that women with those kinds of features are ugly and unfeminine, how do they not say that?
Also, I only brought this up at all because a woman on this forum complained that she felt like she was being called ugly for having similar features.
You defend that but then criticize people for calling other people's views Misogynistic, that's a criticism of an opinion and not a person.
So no, I don't see why you feel the need to project opinions about a fictional character onto real people, other than to be confrontational?
As I already explained earlier, i'm not doing it to be confrontational. I brought it up because someone specifically felt that way and complained about it. I'm not projecting anything onto anyone.
I think people should look at the reality of the situation, which is, quite simply, that what someone thinks about Cassandra's appearance doesn't really matter, at all, let alone outside of the these forums/other game forums. Attempting to justify it by saying "but real women might look like her, and are, by association, being called ugly too" doesn't reflect the intent of the person that thinks she's ugly, but instead reflects the need to make every issue a real life social issue, even if real life doesn't apply. Real life doesn't apply, it's a discussion about in game characters that are, by definition, made up. Now, if Cass wants to come here and defend her honor, she'll have my full support.
No, what they think does not matter but what they say can matter to others, sometimes. Intent should always be taken into account but how can you not see that someone might be insulted by that kind of comment? Your "she's not real so it doesn't apply" argument doesn't really amount to anything more than that. It is really just an opinion, you are discrediting how other people feel because of how you feel.
Also I didn't attempt to justify anything, I said a reaction should be expected and that freedom of speech works both ways.
Dude, you just said that being a warrior is antithetical to being a "lady".
It's just that, as far as I can tell from here, people are taking it a lot more personally that it really needs to be taken. So far, I like what I know about Cass, and don't feel like she's ugly. However, I don't begrudge anyone that may think she is, nor would any of my female friends that might be, and I'm loathe to say this but; more warrior than lady certainly wouldn't be offended.
Ugly means unpleasant and repulsive, especially in appearance which is undoubtedly what those people were talking about. The game engine is not perfect but there are real people who share features with Cassandra, their will even be people who look allot like her. How is that not going to be personal, it's a very personal comment to begin with. The only thing that isn't personal about it is that she isn't real but that doesn't mean it won't feel personal to real women like the one I mentioned.
Their feelings may just be their own feelings but they still have them.
I like how you accuse me of downplaying or overgeneralizating and then you use words like crusade. It happened in one thread, it happened in another, I saw it now again and I'm in the mood of addressing it. Is that any different than what most people do? I'm addressing everyone cause I want counterarguments. It's a behavior I don't fully understand and I want to see what prompts it and what the arguments of those that practice it are.
Everyone understands what I'm talking about. if you followed the threads on female qunari, or some others in this section you know the situation in all it's glory. It saved time for me to say "people do this" instead of going back into the thread and quoting each one of them. If you don't want to participate or if you think I'm a jerk that just wants to stir trouble then you can ignore me. If you do I won't have anything else to say. I started something and participating on it. When it ends it ends. No hard feelings. It's not like I'll see you on another thread and I'll think "oh this is the annoying person from the other thread that disagrees with me".
On the other hand if I don't kick it up a notch, people will never take my point seriously. They will just continue posting one liners and make fun of me.
I accused you of downplaying because you did, I accused you of over generalizing because you tried to put yourself above the people you were arguing with. I merely pointed out that you weren't any better.
My crusade comment may have been a bit hyperbolic but so what? Your whole argument seems to mostly be about stuff that isn't all that relevant to this thread.
Dude, you just said that being a warrior is antithetical to being a "lady".
Ugly means unpleasant and repulsive, especially in appearance which is undoubtedly what those people were talking about. The game engine is not perfect but there are real people who share features with Cassandra, their will even be people who look allot like her. How is that not going to be personal, it's a very personal comment to begin with. The only thing that isn't personal about it is that she isn't real but that doesn't mean it won't feel personal to real women like the one I mentioned.
Their feelings may just be their own feelings but they still have them.
So there is no possible chance than when someone says that Cassandra is ugly she means just that? And well, who makes you an authority to speak for all the women that have boyish looks or hard features. I know many women that have masculine features and builds and they wouldn't give a damn and I love them and some have called me a sissy cause I use nail paint. If anything you make all these people sound like weak and insecure and need someone to stand up for them.
I don't see how that's any less absurd. Manners don't disappear just because you enlist in the army.
And lol, does anyone actually do the pinky thing anymore?
As I already explained earlier, i'm not doing it to be confrontational. I brought it up because someone specifically felt that way and complained about it. I'm not projecting anything onto anyone.
No, what they think does not matter but what they say can matter to others, sometimes. Intent should always be taken into account but how can you not see that someone might be insulted by that kind of comment? Your "she's not real so it doesn't apply" argument doesn't really amount to anything more than that. It is really just an opinion, you are discrediting how other people feel because of how you feel.
Also I didn't attempt to justify anything, I said a reaction should be expected and that freedom of speech works both ways.
So there is no possible chance than when someone says that Cassandra is ugly she means just that? And well, who makes you an authority to speak for all the women that have boyish looks or hard features. I know many women that have masculine features and builds and they wouldn't give a damn and I love them and some have called me a sissy cause I use nail paint. If anything you make all these people sound like weak and insecure and need someone to stand up for them.
I had decided to stay out of this thread because it has derailed so far but I do just have to say- what on Earth makes you think women with strong features have to have the personalities to match? Looks and personalities do NOT need to be synonymous. I'm not sure how anyone is entitled to decide that these women do not need either support or representation based on knowing a couple of examples of these women.
I don't see how that's any less absurd. Manners don't disappear just because you enlist in the army.
And lol, does anyone actually do the pinky thing anymore?
*cough* guilty as charged. My partner and his family find it hilarious, particularly because I do it with anything I'm drinking, be it tea, shots, or a full bottle of wine 
I don't see how that's any less absurd. Manners don't disappear just because you enlist in the army.
And lol, does anyone actually do the pinky thing anymore?
*cough* guilty as charged. My partner and his family find it hilarious, particularly because I do it with anything I'm drinking, be it tea, shots, or a full bottle of wine
So there is no possible chance than when someone says that Cassandra is ugly she means just that? And well, who makes you an authority to speak for all the women that have boyish looks or hard features. I know many women that have masculine features and builds and they wouldn't give a damn and I love them and some have called me a sissy cause I use nail paint. If anything you make all these people sound like weak and insecure and need someone to stand up for them.
I already commented on intent :/
Just because all you mean is "Cassandra is ugly" does not mean that this is all anyone will take from that especially if you specifically highlight features like her jaw which people in this thread have done. I have said this several times now so I don't know why you need to be asking me about it again.
I never claimed to speak for all women I merely pointed out how some woman may take those comments, specifically one woman who took those comments exactly that way. Why are you arguing in such a disingenuous way?
Oh and now you are claiming to speak for women you know, how incredibly hypocritical.
I'm not standing up for anyone, I am explaining how and why people reacted the way they did and why I don't think their reaction was entirely unjustified. Also some people are more easily offended than others, that's just how they are. Sometimes it's nice to think about how you express yourself so that you aren't constantly upsetting people. Sure, you can't always do this but we have already established that nobody here needed to use words like ugly.
I accused you of downplaying because you did, I accused you of over generalizing because you tried to put yourself above the people you were arguing with. I merely pointed out that you weren't any better.
My crusade comment may have been a bit hyperbolic but so what? Your whole argument seems to mostly be about stuff that isn't all that relevant to this thread.
I tried to do what? Just because you decided to enter the discussion to quote one small thing that irked you means that I'm trying to put myself above the others? Seriously get a clue.
Anyway since it's not as you say relevant to the thread title, just don't bother. I don't need someone that won't step with both feet into this discussion and try to shortcut the important things by giving too much meaning on the irrelevant parts.
I stressed many times that it's important to argue about the behavior. It's not important to count how many times one called the other a misogynist. Perhaps it's not the best thread to do it. But it happened on this thread because something prompted it on this thread. It was someone that said "it's sad that straight people have these kind of opinions. If you think this is not the place or the time just ignore me.
Kudos for the wine bottle, I'm not sure I could do it.
My grandmother was very intent that I was to grow up ladylike. She taught me to curtsey, to identify seventeen different types of cutlery and silverware and to arrange flowers, amongst other things. Unfortunately for her, I grew up liking heavy metal, motorbikes, and inappropriate humour, but the finger thing stuck
Etiquette is a useful thing to know, even if only for special occasions. I've been thankful for the things she taught me a couple of times, but I'm never going to be a 'girly girl'
Well...damnit.
So Cassandra having two in her name is a good thing, right? Right!?
I am afraid Cassy is straight. I was so looking forward to angry smexy times with Femqunari and Cas. (This is coming from a straight guy who plays female characters almost strictly)
On a serious note: I personally don't care what any of the characters' preferences are. If I want to romance them I will just make a character to match that scenario accordingly.
SO ABOUT THAT HOMOSEXUAL MALE
All of them.
Varric's a homosexual male. Cullen's a homosexual male. Even Cassandra's a homosexual male.
...Wait.
She made a conscience choice to be offended, or to apply his comment about Cass to herself. That's not anyone's doings but her own. My advice would have been to report the post, and see what the mods had to think about it. If they leave it alone, then apparently they don't share the opinion that calling a fictional character ugly means one is calling real people ugly too. It's not a violation of the rules here, and it may not be the most sensitive thing to say, but that doesn't mean one should be told they can't say it. Which is what got me going in this part of the conversation, people telling him he had to censor his comments to avoid hurting other people's feelings. He doesn't have to. If people find that it's truly offensive, they are free to report the post. Of course, if they do, and the Mods leave it alone, what then?
Um, I wouldn't always call being offended a choice, It's an emotional reaction. Sometimes you can choose to ignore that reaction but that does not mean you should.
I have already explained how these comments can easily be interpreted this way. Your "it's all her fault" argument is really nothing more than that. You are ignoring how language works and how cause and effect works.
Or we could have a discussion about it, rather than getting the mods involved? We could all explain to each other how things make us feel ect ect blah blah.
Nobody (as far as I know) said anyone can't say that. Stop straw-manning people it's getting tiring, criticizsng an opinion IS NOT censorship. Yes if you don't want to upset people then try to express things differently and if you do want to upset people then why are you worth defending? Anyway, advising someone to cencor themselves is not censorship it's just advise, that can be ignored.
SO ABOUT THAT HOMOSEXUAL MALE
Yes, about that man
I'm interested to see how DA will handle the romance arc. I'm certain it will be done with tact and sensitivity, but its so hard to even imagine what direction they might take without knowing which character he is.
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