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Permadeath and healing magic


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#1
dduane o

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While watching the demo from the twitch coverage, Mike Laidlaw mentioned that a player could finish the game with only one companion in the party (challenge accepted), because you could either not find that specific party member or you pissed 'em off, or probably died from a cinematic death due to poor decision.  

 

Then again, I thought about the section that you have to try hard to finish the game single handedly, and I thought "what about finishing the game with companions but your decision during combat would decide between life or death and success or failure of the mission?"  So what I want to suggest is; is it possible to include a Permadeath features of your companions in the game during combat?

 

Before I resume further, what I meant for permadeath on this topic is the possible permanent death of a companion due to the decision of the player to neglect them during combat, which sometimes is hard and unexpected.  Bioware is not a stranger when killing off companions (ME:1, ME:2, ME:3, DA:O, DA:2) but sometimes they are dealt with during decision in a cinematic way which is not covered but by this suggestion.  So hopefully those distinguished between each other, let's go on to the meat of this suggestion!!!

 

 

Before complaints can fly off, please read on first:  The addition of combat permadeath would increase the difficulty of the game even if the difficulty is in the easy mode since the management of your party becomes more important, some would see that as positive addition because this would actually increase the relationship between the player and their companions, without any conversations or cinematic and a natural connection just happens between the player and the game, ie: Skyrim #1 companion Lydia! The player protects her and feels close to her even though she has no story at all.   So the player becomes kind of obligated and careful during combat that they have to think more of their actions so that their companions can survive.  Since this is Bioware, the longer the companion is alive, the rewards of having them longer is the addition of more content the player can get out from them (romance, quest, conversation, gossips).  This addition would be another kind of management of being a leader, besides leading this organization, you have to show that you can manage your crew before you could effectively manage an organization.

 

In gameplay wise also, the player becomes more aware that there is a page in options menu that you could actually set tactics for each member.  The tactics menu was really helpful in Origins since there are difficulty spikes.  This helps to plan each companion's strategy along the way. (I'm mentioning this because I failed to use it in DA:2 since I was more close and personal, I only used it once the high dragon showed up).  Not to mention, this would make rock armor potion and such damage decreasing potions more helpful this time around.

 

There are two ways I think this could be implemented in the game successfully. Either:

 

-set a difficulty after NIghtmare that includes the permadeath, which is mandatory for the rest of the game 

 

or

 

-an option where you can toggle on or off the permadeath option, where like the difficulty level it can be switch back anytime.

 

And I believe this could actually work in the game since in the second one there were two potions that were really helpful:  the Merthyl blessing potion and the lifeward potion.  The merthyl blessing resuscitates felled companions during combat, While lifeward potion makes the companion invincible of death once their HP reaches 0.  These two could have more value during gameplay, and could prove to be a lifesaver for anyone who are not ready for their companions to die yet and would find such difficulty sort of unfair or unprepared.  Some may say, then you defeat the purpose of permadeath, yes and no.  There should be a time limit of which the companion is dying but can't fight and in that amount of time you can use the potion before they bleed to death, and once that timer is done, well they are dead. (Borderlands, FarCry)

 

For those who thinks that this could also become overpower, well Merthyl's blessing can have a limitation of use during combat and the lifeward potion can have a time limit before its effects wears off and the player is obligated to use a helath potion to increase the 0 point health potion.  The limitation of how much potion you can carry is also a limitation since you have a limitation of how much you can carry potions now.  Again, a way of micro management in the game.

 

How about the spells, well the renew spell is probably back and sure they can use it and increase the amount of mana being use and the time mana will recover.  Again strategy management.

 

 

Sorry it's a freaking paper but hopefully you guys see my point and thanks for reading!

 



#2
Andraste_Reborn

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The thing about permadeath is that all it does is make me grumble and savescum. In the Baldur's Gate series, I just saved before every encounter and reloaded if anyone died. (Until my party got level seven spells, at which point death became a trivial problem anyway.)

 

It didn't add any complexity to the game for me, unless you count opening the 'load' menu the instant someone's portrait greyed out as complexity.


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#3
Zjarcal

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I always reload when someone falls in battle cuz I hate that, so it wouldn't affect my playstyle at all.

 

I can see tons of ppl being pissed of by something like this though.

 

Could work as an optional thing.

 

 

 

It didn't add any complexity to the game for me, unless you count opening the 'load' menu the instant someone's portrait greyed out as complexity.

 
I'd argue it does add complexity since you gotta manage your party more carefully to avoid it. Whether someone finds it enjoyable or not is a different issue.


#4
Mes

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I wouldn't mind having a permanent death option as long as you could toggle it off if you wanted to. :P

 

I think permadeath from regular combat might work a bit better in a game like Skyrim, where there is hardly any story emphasis on your companions, than it would in Dragon Age. I think Bioware just invests so much into these companions, giving them stories, personalities, building in all these interactions throughout the game... To me it would seem like a pretty big waste if they could just get killed off by random dark spawn encounters.

 

I think when/if they do die, a whole cinematic thing like you mentioned would be more appropriate.


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#5
AresKeith

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I would mind something like this as an option, even though I personally don't go through with it *looks at Fire Emblem*  :bandit:



#6
dduane o

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I wouldn't mind having a permanent death option as long as you could toggle it off if you wanted to. :P

 

I think permadeath from regular combat might work a bit better in a game like Skyrim, where there is hardly any story emphasis on your companions, than it would in Dragon Age. I think Bioware just invests so much into these companions, giving them stories, personalities, building in all these interactions throughout the game... To me it would seem like a pretty big waste if they could just get killed off by random dark spawn encounters.

 

I think when/if they do die, a whole cinematic thing like you mentioned would be more appropriate.

 

it does sounds like a waste but the satisfaction that you saved their butts on that random encounter and your emotional connection to them just increased.  You're right that the writers did invest so much time but with this implemented, it is now your turn to invest the time to keep them alive since you know that they have more purpose in the game.  

 

Just imagine also, you bring your romance in the adventure and then BOOM a raid, you were immersed and then suddenly, you looked up to your hud and see that there are two people that are about to die or dying and you only have one Myrtle blessing which one will you choose, and one of them is your romance!!!! DUM DUM DUM, the tension!  There was no death cinematic but you were attached that it is such a big deal.  

 

but I see you what you mean, yeah.



#7
Mes

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it does sounds like a waste but the satisfaction that you saved their butts on that random encounter and your emotional connection to them just increased.  You're right that the writers did invest so much time but with this implemented, it is now your turn to invest the time to keep them alive since you know that they have more purpose in the game.  

 

Just imagine also, you bring your romance in the adventure and then BOOM a raid, you were immersed and then suddenly, you looked up to your hud and see that there are two people that are about to die or dying and you only have one Myrtle blessing which one will you choose, and one of them is your romance!!!! DUM DUM DUM, the tension!  There was no death cinematic but you were attached that it is such a big deal.  

 

but I see you what you mean, yeah.

 

Yeah I see what you mean as well. :)

 

I dunno I think if it were implemented as an option, there would have to be at least one companion that would be magically immune to permadeath in random encounters. For instance it looks like Cassandra is going to be possibly the most important companion story-wise. I'm just guessing here, but we know she's the first one to come upon the Inquisitor, and it looks like she'll be the one to convince you or enable you to lead the inquisition. So imagine if she gets killed in the very first encounter. That would make moving the story forward impossible.

 

Edit: I will say that permadeath made me stupidly attached to my useless companion in Skyrim. I forget his name - Stan or something? - he was just some dude from a village. Kept him with me all the time. 

 

Then a few hours later the game glitched and I received a letter stating he had died in combat. :P GARRR.



#8
dduane o

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Yeah I see what you mean as well. :)

 

I dunno I think if it were implemented as an option, there would have to be at least one companion that would be magically immune to permadeath in random encounters. For instance it looks like Cassandra is going to be possibly the most important companion story-wise. I'm just guessing here, but we know she's the first one to come upon the Inquisitor, and it looks like she'll be the one to convince you or enable you to lead the inquisition. So imagine if she gets killed in the very first encounter. That would make moving the story forward impossible.

 

TRUE.  That would be the shortest game ever.  

 

Unless she was travelling with Leliana and from that point since she isn't your companion, Leliana would go directly to the headquarters and would be your quest giver like.  From the demo, there is a chance that Leliana would cinematically die so probably that would be far ahead already that you at least have your advisers so they would be telling you what to do and then you can Rambo all through out the game.

 

Romance would actually suck/funny also.  Love at first sight, death at first date (insert meme).



#9
AlanC9

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Wing Commander 3 -- has it really been twenty years? -- implemented something along these lines. Wingmen whose role in the plot had not yet been completed would always eject and be picked up by SAR if they were shot down. But if their plot function was finished, they would simply die.

#10
Falcon084

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As a separate game mode that deletes all but your starting save if you die could work. That way permadeath couldn't be exploited.



#11
dduane o

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Wing Commander 3 -- has it really been twenty years? -- implemented something along these lines. Wingmen whose role in the plot had not yet been completed would always eject and be picked up by SAR if they were shot down. But if their plot function was finished, they would simply die.

 

Also the same with Companions quest line in Skyrim.  

 

SInce there are no planes here and you would just get pissed off when your companion run off, would it make sense for them to have longer lives?  They would die still but you know, be a tank before falling.



#12
Hanako Ikezawa

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Permadeath makes me think of Fire Emblem, and all the times I had to restart a level because one of my units died.  :(

 

If DAI has it, hello me saving every 5 minutes just in case.



#13
dduane o

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As a separate game mode that deletes all but your starting save if you die could work. That way permadeath couldn't be exploited.

 

Yeah, that was one of the choices too :)



#14
dduane o

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If DAI has it, hello me saving every 5 minutes just in case.

 

Same here! But at least you can save anytime, Making the quick save function so useful



#15
Hanako Ikezawa

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Same here! But at least you can save anytime, Making the quick save function so useful

True.

 

To use my Fire Emblem example again, it'd be like if we lose a companion during the final fight in Redcliffe Castle, you'd have to replay the entire Redcliffe castle segment again. 



#16
Devtek

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I would mind something like this as an option, even though I personally don't go through with it *looks at Fire Emblem*  :bandit:

Fire emblem also has more than 9 characters.



#17
dduane o

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True.

 

To use my Fire Emblem example again, it'd be like if we lose a companion during the final fight in Redcliffe Castle, you'd have to replay the entire Redcliffe castle segment again. 

 

Probably not that far though.  There is usually a calm before the storm to the DA bosses though, so you can save before going to the boss and then strategize. 

 

Even the horde mode in Redcliffe, when they were no skeleton coming at me, spam that quick save!!!! and it works



#18
Black Jimmy

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I wouldn't mind permadeath added. As a toggle though.

But we don't know how important certain characters will be at the end game(or before) and if Bioware has written scenes in case of their absence.



#19
Innsmouth Dweller

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i'd like that very much. but don't see it happen. why? because companions is the field in which BW thrives. NPCs are sometimes plot devices, devs reuse them frequently, even changing past shaped by the player himself, allowed by the gameplay (death, insanity). you shouldn't expect perma death in fights if the cutscene ones are overwritten.

 

Also, who's Lydia? i cried when ED-E was shot down in hc fight tho, way more than when Hawke's mother died.



#20
Gtdef

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Having permanent death as a result of combat is a great idea, but it would require an extreme amount of class balancing to achieve. On higher difficulties, dying can be a result of a bad animation. For example lets take the Witcher 2. When you click the attack button and he is at a certain distance from the target, he jumps and attacks. There are a lot of enemies that can attack you while you are locked into the animation and if for some reason they hit you in the back you die instantly, The way to counter this is getting the talents that decrease backstab damage and making extensive use of quen sign. 

 

If it wasn't for these 2 things, it would be literally impossible to do an insanity run. You can die from silly things like not being able to roll through a pebble. So these skills are well balanced to prevent such things if you have the mind to prepare for them (which you should, otherwise there is no point in playing insanity).

 

In DA2 there are a lot of skills that you can't be sure that they will work. For example using the evade skill, or armistice. You can't count on them to prevent deaths even in the situations where they are designed to be the absolute counter. When an assassin npc targets you and you drop decoy, 99% of the time, the assassin hits the decoy instead of you but there is a small chance that it will still hit you instead which is probably a bug. It's not supposed to work that way but it does and a backstab from an assassin can be one hit ko. Also you can't prepare for it. You have a finite amount of abilities to use in a given situation. If you thought that you can counter the first backstab by unstealthing the assassin, and the second with dropping decoy, you are in for a keyboard breaking surprise.



#21
Mr.House

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I would like this, one of my fav parts of the Fire Emblem series was the fact that characters could die for good in combat(there is only some exceptions because story and the main character dying results in a game over)



#22
PessimistPanda

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As long as I can turn that **** off, I don't care what other people do.

 

I'm not particularly thrilled about the notion that they can die during random cutscenes, either.



#23
DaySeeker

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I think it would depend heavily on AI, if my characters act like fools in combat and waste all their talents on easy enemies to be foiled by the stronger ones that drop in the third wave I'm pissed.  If there are waves of enemies- not happy.  If I have to choose between buying tactic slots and talents like I did in DAO I don't like that either.  I I don't like not getting a chance to not know the NPC's because of a random battle.  It is a huge part of the series.   I'd be more for death as part of decsiosns I made in game, but even that in ME3 was not very satisfying.  My game would be more about saving companions than being an Inquisitor.



#24
AlanC9

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The thing about permadeath is that all it does is make me grumble and savescum. In the Baldur's Gate series, I just saved before every encounter and reloaded if anyone died. (Until my party got level seven spells, at which point death became a trivial problem anyway.).


Jaheira gets Harper's Call a lot earlier than that, doesn't she?

#25
NoForgiveness

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Well I hate babysitting my companions.... so I would never use this, but I wouldn't be opposed to it as a completely optional thing.