57 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

Let me state from the off that I realise why sexual orientation is important to players but I am purely thinking about the game world of Thedas.   It is my understanding that there is no prejudice against homosexual relationships in Thedas.    In Masked Empire Celene is being criticised by her enemies not because she has a same sex lover but because that lover is an elf.   Even Gaspard's comment about her being lesbian accounting for why she refused his suit is surely more to assuage his ego since he knows full well that marriages among the nobility are done for political or economic reasons, not simply sexual attraction.   We also know that Celene was perfectly prepared to marry Cailan and presumably at some stage that marriage would have to have been consummated for it to be valid.  Besides the fact that Eamon was suggesting dumping Anora for not providing an heir so at some point Cailan would expect to bed Celene.

 

However, I was trying to think of situations where the sexual orientation of a character might cause problems.   The first that came to mind was in the City elf community, which could be relevant to Sera.    In DAO we are under pressure to marry for the sake of the community and these are arranged marriages of the opposite sex, clearly with the intent of producing children.   You can object all you want about the partner that has been selected for you but you seem to have no alternative but to comply or be a social outcast.

 

A second example might be the Grey Wardens.   They clearly have no problem with relationships outside of the Wardens, since for the most part you are meant to leave these behind.    However, how would they view relationships within their ranks.   Would they frown on any relationship because concern for your lover might put a mission at risk?   Would they feel, like the Spartans, that a m/m relationship would strengthen the bonds of brotherhood?   Or would they regard it in some way as a sign of weakness?    I still can't get over the fact that they made Anders get rid of his cat, so this idea isn't as daft as it sounds.   Incidentally I seem to recall that women are not nearly as common within their ranks as men.

 

I also thought that the Dalish, rather like the city elves, might put a degree of pressure on their members to pair up with the opposite sex because of the need to keep their numbers up but they don't seem to have arranged marriages in the same way the city elves do.   That elf girl (forget her name) was able to refuse her admirer's suit because he had not yet proved himself, so clearly being able to provide for your partner and any children is the priority in Dalish culture.     Which made me consider another thing, there is no polygamy in Thedas.    In a culture like the Dalish, where for very understandable reasons you need to be able to prove yourself as a hunter to be acceptable as a suitor, why do not the more able hunters have more than one wife?    Alternatively, why does it have to be the male who proves themselves to the female and not the other way round?

 

Ideas please? 

 

 

[mikeymoonshine]

Well I think it's as you said in certain situations people will be expected to marry and procreate and maybe for other societal and political reasons. This isn't really out of prejudice for SS relationships though. Allot of the nobility are going to have been forced to marry someone they don't want but it doesn't really matter because they can just have another lover. 

 

It's probably harder for the elves. 

[Deviija]

A second example might be the Grey Wardens.   They clearly have no problem with relationships outside of the Wardens, since for the most part you are meant to leave these behind.    However, how would they view relationships within their ranks.   Would they frown on any relationship because concern for your lover might put a mission at risk?   Would they feel, like the Spartans, that a m/m relationship would strengthen the bonds of brotherhood?   Or would they regard it in some way as a sign of weakness?    I still can't get over the fact that they made Anders get rid of his cat, so this idea isn't as daft as it sounds.   

 

 

In the book, Dragon Age: The Calling, two Grey Warden men are lovers and have a relationship that is pretty known.  Nicolas and Julien.  In the flash game, Dragon Age: Journeys, two Grey Warden women are lovers and have a relationship.  Martine and Feren.  There was never any indication of positive or negative views toward same-sex relations in the organization, just the same as opposite sex relations.  

 

Personally, and this is where I branch off into my own opinions, I would bet the organization would be more okay with Wardens with other Wardens versus average citizens.  Wardens lead a duty-bound life, and there is sacrifice for the ultimate goal(s) involved.  It's likely easier, imo, having that person you love understand your duty and goals because they share them.  Also, if you live 'til your Calling, it might be nice to venture into the Deep Roads with someone at your side, taking the same life journey with you.    

 

 

Incidentally I seem to recall that women are not nearly as common within their ranks as men.

 

 

Is this based on what Alistair tells the Warden in a conversation?  If so, I think that is more directly in relation to his lived experience.  Wardens are already rare as it is in Ferelden, and he's hardly met any of them in general, both due to rareness and his still being somewhat new.  He's also hardly the scholar on All Things Warden, Past and Present.  That's my take on it.  

[Andraste_Reborn]

However, how would they view relationships within their ranks.   Would they frown on any relationship because concern for your lover might put a mission at risk?   Would they feel, like the Spartans, that a m/m relationship would strengthen the bonds of brotherhood?   Or would they regard it in some way as a sign of weakness?

 

We actually have an answer to that one: there are two male Grey Wardens in The Calling who are in a long-term relationship with each other. Nobody seems to have a problem with it, including their commanding officer. I suspect love and sex between people of any gender(s) is tolerated just as long as it doesn't interfere with the righteous Grey Warden-ing.

 

In general, I think that cultures in Thedas aren't homophobic but are heteronormative. Most societies we've seen so far are built around a family model where lineage and inheritance are important. As you say, there's probably a lot of pressure on people from many backgrounds to get married and produce offspring. (The Qunari are, of course, an exception, but they only allow sex for reproductive purposes anyway. So we're back at heteronormativity again.)

 

However, the difference between Thedas and many societies in our world is that same-sex bonds aren't condemned in and of themselves. A gay or lesbian Dalish elf might be criticised for being 'selfish' for not producing more little elves, but a Dalish elf who didn't want to get married at all would probably get exactly the same complaints.

 

I suspect that in any social group where there's a lot of pressure to continue the line (be that elves or dwarves or the human nobility) nobody cares much what you do with your free time as long as you've done your 'duty' first.

 

Edit: ninjaed! Which is what I get for stopping to eat in the middle of writing a long-winded post.

[Dracon525]

I'd say mostly, the only main negative to come out of SS relationships is the gossip, especially among those of importance. Your average farmboy probably would get much bother for tumbling around in the barn with another lad, whereas Celene would probably get a few side whispers about her lady-love.

[PessimistPanda]

I don't know, and I don't particularly care. I'm super sick of everyone going "BUT HOW DO THE GAY DO?" whenever a character is revealed to be anything other than ram-rod straight.

 

I would really like it if sexuality didn't matter at all in Dragon Age. But the lore of Origins suggested that gender didn't matter at all, yet play as a woman and you'll find there are like three instances during Ostagar alone of characters saying " A female warden? How scandalous!" while their monocles pop loose and fall into their champagne.

[Dracon525]

" A female warden? How scandalous!" while their monocles pop loose and fall into their champagne.

Hmm... I must have missed these fine gentlemen

 

 "BUT HOW DO THE GAY DO?"

I think i'll start saying this whenever I meet another gay person.

But in all seriousness, I agree. Sexuality should just be an addition to whatever personality someone has, not a major aspect of it. I feel the DA universe does this quite well though. I mean, as far as I know, no-one really knew Herren and Wade were a couple until it was made known by the creators of the game.

[Gervaise]

The gender thing also comes up in Asunder.   People think Evangeline was odd for wanting to pursue a "manly" career as a Templar instead of staying on the family estate and getting married.  In Origins there did seem to be far more male Templars than female and even in DA2 the majority seemed to be male.    Also Sten thinks it odd if the Warden is female, so clearly in his society soldiers are male, although Talis is female so it is okay for spies to be either sex.  So it seems that gender isn't a total barrier to pursuing a profession in Thedas, depending on which culture you are born into, but people still deem some activities more masculine and others more feminine.   And of course the Chantry is gender specific in the roles you can follow.

 

I wonder if with the Qunari it is more than just heteronormative.   Since sex is for reproductive purposes only and the leadership decide who you mate with, would they punish anyone who went outside those parameters for behaviour?    Then again, I suppose that would apply equally if you went with the "wrong" opposite sex partner.

[Ponendus]

There is some interesting information on the wiki about your topic OP. Particularly this paragraph on this page.

 

Same-gender relationships

 

Same-sex relations are generally considered strange in Ferelden, but Fereldans do not consider it immoral, and place no particular stigma upon it. Orlesians regard homosexuality as a mere quirk of character, and the Antivan Crows show a winking tolerance for relations with multiple partners of either sex. The Chantry does not seem to have an official view on the subject. There is pressure in certain circles, such as the elves and the human nobility, to marry an opposite-gendered partner, but this is motivated by pragmatism rather than morality; a homosexual couple cannot have biological children. For a dying race like the elves or dwarves, it is vital that every fertile individual produce offspring, and human noble families place great stock in the continuity of bloodlines in order to have clear heirs to noble titles and fortunes, and thus avoid the conflicts that often erupt when succession is not clear.

 

Edit: Also, there was an interesting Q&A with Mr.Gaider on the old forums back around DA:O's release about this topic. I can't find it due to the changeover, but it's documented on this site here, scroll down to 'David Gaider on sex & marriage'. It's old though so things may have changed since then.

[KaiserShep]

I'd say mostly, the only main negative to come out of SS relationships is the gossip, especially among those of importance. Your average farmboy probably would get much bother for tumbling around in the barn with another lad, whereas Celene would probably get a few side whispers about her lady-love.

 

In fairness, Celene would probably draw more concern for the fact that her secret lover was an elf than being female, especially since same-sex relations is even less of an issue in Orlais.

[HighlandBerserkr]

There does seem to be a predjudice of str8 male relationships

[Altima Darkspells]

There seems to be more emphasis on roles, either gender or titles, than on sexuality.

The City Elf origin sees the forced marriage as more about keeping ties to other alienages and genetic diversity. There aren't that many elves in Ferelden (enough to shoehorn them into Alienages where it would be impractical in places like Halamshiral), and after a few generations without fresh blood, it would become a problem.

As for the Dalish, with their nomadic existence, I wouldn't be surprised if they had breeding seasons where the clan would settle down in an area so that their members would give birth.

The Qunari are, of course, different.

[Altima Darkspells]

There does seem to be a predjudice of str8 male relationships

That's because boys are icky.

[Chari]

Dalish traditionally marry one partner for the whole life
It's also is demonstrated in their pantheon through mother moon-father sun
Plus it gives more genetic variety within a clan than polygamy does

[daveliam]

Yeah, I have to agree that we've probably pretty much covered it already.  Sexual orientation only really matters in Thedas if the person is expected to produce an heir to continue their blood line.  The Dalish, Human Nobles, and Dwarf Nobles probably all face this pressure.  However, I don't think it matter all that much in the long run.  Look at the Couslands.  They were a totally progressive noble family!  Both Fergus and your father make comments about your s/s fling with either Iona or Darrien and don't blink an eye at it.  Now, perhaps that's because the HN is the second child and Fergus is already married with a male heir of his own, but they are totally fine with my gay male HN hooking up with Darrien.  My male Aeducan is always gay and I usually have him sleep with Mardy in the beginning to produce an heir.  I RP it as him seeing an opportunity to produce an heir and get Trian off his back so that he can continue his s/s relationships on the side.  I love coming back to Orzammar with Zev on his arm and finding out he has a son.  I wish that Zev had more of a reaction, though. 

[PessimistPanda]

That's because boys are icky.

If icky is slang for 'SUPER HOT' then sure.

[Rayndorn]

Dwarves are going extinct due to the Darkspawn's constant push, and the very presence of their evil (corruption?) is causing Dwarves to become infertile. Even without all of these ill tidings, Dwarven nobles are still extremely rigid in tradition and expect their children to sire heirs. With so much pressure to reproduce, I would say Dwarven homosexuals are the worst off - but even then, as other posters have said, it's not because of homophobia. They're simply expected to reproduce and marry. So long as they do that, other nobles probably wouldn't blink twice at closet (poor wording, I know) lovers and paramours, regardless of gender.

The Elves are in the same boat, desperate to keep their numbers up and cultures alive, though they are obviously a lot better off than Dwarves.

Humans are a kind of mix of the two, as I see it. Noble families just want heirs, and don't care about same-sex discreet lovers (like Dwarves), but there isn't a major threat equal to Darkspawn culling their numbers so it isn't extremely urgent overall (Like Elves, with the exception of the Dalish who are a minority, if I recall). Even so, their still wary to waste lives.

In my case, having gay Dwarves and Dalish Elves as some of my main characters, it looks like I like to rebel against social customs. Hueheheh.

[tmp7704]

However, I was trying to think of situations where the sexual orientation of a character might cause problems.   The first that came to mind was in the City elf community, which could be relevant to Sera.    In DAO we are under pressure to marry for the sake of the community and these are arranged marriages of the opposite sex, clearly with the intent of producing children.   You can object all you want about the partner that has been selected for you but you seem to have no alternative but to comply or be a social outcast.

With the City Elves, I'm not really convinced this is the way they view it -- as I understand it, the marriages are arranged between different alienages as a way to bring these alienages together (if A from alienage X goes to live in alienage Y, then people from X have more personal reasons to feel concerned about Y, and vice versa, people from Y can empathize easier with people from X because they know someone from there, who lives with them) The thing is, this doesn't require heterosexual marriages, and same-sex arrangements would have the same effect. As such, I think it may be well possible to have same-sex marriage arranged, if the elf in question requests so. (yes, the game doesn't allow that; it is an issue, but possible to chalk up to complicating the plot, that they wanted to avoid)

Being pressured into marriage, iirc this has much more to do with the marriage being viewed as 'rite of passage' that turns teenager into an adult, than with need of children. It's the Orzammar dwarves who are concerned with acquiring offsprings, because as far as they're concerned they're literally the last town standing, with population taking frequent losses to Darkspawn and every conceived kid being a Big Deal because it's a Rare Thing To Happen. The elves in contrast don't face these factors -- the alienages are densely populated, to the point of some being heavily overcrowded. They also exist all over the world, and the populations maintain contact with one another. And if I remember right, there isn't anything in the game about elf kids being harder to conceive than human ones. This isn't a situation that'd make many go "must have children nao, this is The Most Important Thing"

tl;dr: city elves probably give less figs about them having kids than the bsn does.

[Allan Schumacher]

There does seem to be a predjudice of str8 male relationships

 

This is not true.  I've seen it posted in a variety of threads now by you.  Please stop.  It increases the chances of soliciting more negative responses and I'd rather not go down those roads again.

[mlgumm]

I think I once read something about Tevinter Magisters having an issue with s/s relationships, but I can't remember where I read it. I'm pretty sure the reason given was the more powerful ones were expected to pair up for stronger mages in the future as some sort of mage eugenics thing? That may be old info, or a fan theory I'm mistaking for canon, though.

[bossuary]

i am always baffled at how little polyamory and adoption play a role in DA succession lore.  there are lots of historical rulers, many in the East, who've handed their kingdoms down to non-biological children (augustus caesar was adopted, by his great uncle, but still).  with the above-stated pressures for heirs in all cultures, and a demonstrated disinterest in (or tolerance of) ss relationships, you would think arrangements that satisfy both the heir requirement and the individual's sexuality would be common and encouraged. preferably in a non-gross mistress/concubine way. but then, as far as adoption goes, orphanages in thedas are likely full of children who remain unadopted for a myriad of racist/classist reasons...

[MisterJB]

Wait Fergus and the father make comments on a relationship with Iona. How did I miss that?

I remember Fergus' being, basically "You dog".

I don't really think they considered it a relationship, you can extablish your Cousland as being promiscuous; with references to having been caught in the hay, pesumably not alone.

[Eveangaline]

I think I once read something about Tevinter Magisters having an issue with s/s relationships, but I can't remember where I read it. I'm pretty sure the reason given was the more powerful ones were expected to pair up for stronger mages in the future as some sort of mage eugenics thing? That may be old info, or a fan theory I'm mistaking for canon, though.

 

Although with magisters it's probably assumed they do whatever they want to their slaves of whatever gender.