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When is sexual orientation important in Thedas?


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#26
Former_Fiend

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I think among the nobility, both human and dwarven, there's probably a feeling of "so long as you get married to someone who's politically advantageous to get married to and produce heirs for the family, then it doesn't matter what you have on the side." So it probably only becomes an issue if pushed to the point of exclusiveness. 

 

Celene's a prime example of this; her relationship with Briala wasn't an issue because she was sleeping with another woman, but because she had refused to marry and produce heirs for twenty years, in part due to that relationship. And even then, it became a scandal not because she was with another woman but because she was with an elf. 


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#27
mlgumm

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Yeah, I believe it was confirmed by the devs Denarius raped Fenris, so they're probably fine for whatever with slaves. But I was talking about Magisters in actual relationships that include marriage and whatnot. Take what I posted before with a grain of salt though, as I read it a long time ago and do not remember the source.



#28
Gervaise

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I'm pretty sure the reason you married outside the alienage was to widen the gene pool, with increasing the bond between alienages as a secondary benefit of the arrangement.   After all there wouldn't be much point in getting closer links with a community many miles away since they wouldn't have the means to travel there regularly.   Keeping the numbers up would seem important because in situations like the alienage there is probably quite a high mortality rate among infants.      I also recall that there was one epilogue where Soris married a human and had to move away because of prejudice against the union from the elves.   Now I'm not sure if that would simply be a racial thing against humans or the fact that any children born of the marriage would effectively be human but the prejudice against mixed race unions comes from both sides.   Now in a way you'd think mixed marriages would be seen as a good thing by the elves  if closer ties between communities was the aim because surely having closer ties with human communities would encourage the latter to improve the lot of the elves, so I'm pretty sure that it is the issue of any children not being elves that is the driving force behind the disapproval.  



#29
Panda

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I'd say heterosexuality is more appreciated only when it comes to political marriages and producing heirs. Characters who aren't excepted to do either seem to have no problem with their homosexual relationships. It seems like same sex relationships are still minority in Thedas but not something that's looked down to.



#30
tmp7704

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I'm pretty sure the reason you married outside the alienage was to widen the gene pool, with increasing the bond between alienages as a secondary benefit of the arrangement.

When the alienages hold as many people as you'd find in sizable town (or a city in case of Val Royeaux alienage) an equivalent of multiple villages, why should they be displaying more concern about 'widening the gene pool' than we do, or even be more than vaguely aware of the concept, for that matter? Another consideration is, who is to say how the elf genes actually work? They are apparently magical when it comes to cross-species pairing, who knows how they work when it's elf x elf?

#31
BioWareM0d13

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I remember Fergus' being, basically "You dog".

I don't really think they considered it a relationship, you can extablish your Cousland as being promiscuous; with references to having been caught in the hay, pesumably not alone.

 

 

You can do with that Alistair as well. If you have the Warden ask Alistair about whether or not he's done it, he'll demand that the Warden answers first. One of the options is something like, "Oh yes. Many, many times." Alistiar then says something like, "And I see you have no shame as well."  :lol:



#32
MisterJB

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You can do with that Alistair as well. If you have the Warden ask Alistair about whether or not he's done it, he'll demand that the Warden answers first. One of the options is something like, "Oh yes. Many, many times." Alistiar then says something like, "And I see you have no shame as well."  :lol:

It always bothered me how you can't do anything about her daugther. Her dad is dead and now her mother died partially because of the HN. She's just sitting there in the dirt and there's nothing we can do.
Same with that dwarven beggar at the Hall of Heroes. I want to give him money but the game won't let me.

 

Why won't you let us help these people Bioware?



#33
Gervaise

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I've just been back an checked the conversation.   I'm complaining about why I can't choose for myself.   Cyrion says it is because it would be difficult for me to travel to another alienage in order to decide on someone myself so I have to trust to my elders.    He then says the most difficult thing is to decide who travels to which alienage and who gets the dowry, followed by "One side gets new blood and a new face", the other gets to dowry to balance things out.

 

I spoke of gene pool because that is how we understand it.   He spoke of new blood.   This was Ferelden.   Their alienage isn't as big as Val Royeaux so may be the families are very closely related.    There seems no question of choosing from among your own alienage.    As for the closer ties, it seems almost as if the dowry compensates for the loss of the relative because like as not that is the last they will see of them.   The money is also important.   Some how I can't see them agreeing to a gay elf moving to another alienage just because there are no other gay elves within their alienage because there is no new blood benefit to doing so and likely as not, no financial benefit either.   May be that is why they also objected to Soris' choice, because they didn't get a dowry from her family.



#34
BioWareM0d13

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It always bothered me how you can't do anything about her daugther. Her dad is dead and now her mother died partially because of the HN. She's just sitting there in the dirt and there's nothing we can do.
Same with that dwarven beggar at the Hall of Heroes. I want to give him money but the game won't let me.

 

Why won't you let us help these people Bioware?

 

I wish those options had been in the game as well, particularly with Iona's daughter. I immediately recognized the name and wanted my Warden to stick 5 sovereigns in her hand and tell her, "Go to the Chantry, child. They will look after you."

 

Oh well. Head canon engaged! 



#35
Treacherous J Slither

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I believe that there are gender roles in Thedas and as a result, that elf boy has to be a provider because he's a male and she's a baby factory because she's female. I'm sure this only applies to breeder relationships which gives them a certain perspective for me seeing as how the only contraceptives available are pulling out or abstaining altogether. What if you don't want kids? Does the straight male still have to prove themselves as a provider? How would the Dalish community for example react to such a couple?

 

Thoughts?



#36
Andraste_Reborn

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I'm sure this only applies to breeder relationships which gives them a certain perspective for me seeing as how the only contraceptives available are pulling out or abstaining altogether.

 

I doubt this is the case. There's dialogue between Wynne and Alistair that suggests that mages, at least, have access to some form of birth control. More importantly, family size suggests that contraception exists in Thedas. We don't see any evidence of the massive infant and child mortality that would otherwise account for the families we've seen having two or three children instead of ten or twelve.

 

(That said, the withdrawal method is more effective on a population-wide level than one might expect. There have been some very interesting studies on the demographics of Eighteen and Nineteenth Century France vs. other parts of Europe, and the complaints the church made about the falling birth rate. Since the Chantry doesn't seem as hung up on sexual morality, that might account for some of the difference between Thedas and what we'd expect of a society with no readily available and reliable birth control.)



#37
Lieutenant Kurin

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I believe that there are gender roles in Thedas and as a result, that elf boy has to be a provider because he's a male and she's a baby factory because she's female. I'm sure this only applies to breeder relationships which gives them a certain perspective for me seeing as how the only contraceptives available are pulling out or abstaining altogether. What if you don't want kids? Does the straight male still have to prove themselves as a provider? How would the Dalish community for example react to such a couple?

 

Thoughts?

I'd like to mention that some form of birth control (o abortion) does exist in Thedas. There's a mention of them somewhere, by Wynne, in reference to mage sexual relationships. Apparently it is readily available to mages in the hopes it would prevent magical children.



#38
BioWareM0d13

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I'd like to mention that some form of birth control (o abortion) does exist in Thedas. There's a mention of them somewhere, by Wynne, in reference to mage sexual relationships. Apparently it is readily available to mages in the hopes it would prevent magical children.

 

Abortion probably exists as well, if no other reason that it also existed in our ancient past. One of the ways they went about this was by drinking pennyroyal to induce miscarriages. 

 

Ancient methods of abortion often posed a high risk to the mother as well though. Pennyroyal for example is a poison, and can kill even in small doses.



#39
myahele

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I can imagine city/Dalish elves pressured to have children for obvious reasons. Same with Tevinter due to the need for more mages.

Like others said, it'll only be a issue if its exclusive relationship. A commoner can get away with it but not a noble.

#40
Maria Caliban

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When is sexual orientation important in Thedas?


When the writers decide it is.
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#41
Treacherous J Slither

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O i c. Sucks for that Dalish boy then. Wait, what happens with him after you've ended the Witherfang curse? Does he hunt for the pelts himself since the forest is safe or what?



#42
BioWareM0d13

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O i c. Sucks for that Dalish boy then. Wait, what happens with him after you've ended the Witherfang curse? Does he hunt for the pelts himself since the forest is safe or what?

 

Cammen?

 

If the curse is ended before completing his quest, the quest is closed out, and Cammen will say he plans to hunt now that the ban has been lifted.



#43
tmp7704

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As for the closer ties, it seems almost as if the dowry compensates for the loss of the relative because like as not that is the last they will see of them.   The money is also important.   Some how I can't see them agreeing to a gay elf moving to another alienage just because there are no other gay elves within their alienage because there is no new blood benefit to doing so and likely as not, no financial benefit either.

If a person moves out then the destination alienage still gets the benefit of getting "new face" along with all the work that person is going to provide at the new place over the years they'll spend living there, while the old place loses these things. I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to expect/get the dowry in exchange for that, to keep the trade from being one sided.

#44
Zandilar

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 We also know that Celene was perfectly prepared to marry Cailan and presumably at some stage that marriage would have to have been consummated for it to be valid.  Besides the fact that Eamon was suggesting dumping Anora for not providing an heir so at some point Cailan would expect to bed Celene.

 

 

Yes, I know this is not really exactly on point but... How do we know that Anora was the infertile one of the couple? Is there any evidence anywhere of Cailan's fertility?

 

They might have been willing to set Anora aside, only to find that Cailan couldn't produce heirs with Celene either...



#45
BioWareM0d13

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Yes, I know this is not really exactly on point but... How do we know that Anora was the infertile one of the couple? Is there any evidence anywhere of Cailan's fertility?

 

They might have been willing to set Anora aside, only to find that Cailan couldn't produce heirs with Celene either...

 

I think the assumption that Anora was infertifle was wishful thinking on Eamon's part. He needs Anora to be infertifle, because Cailan being sterile is a disaster both for him and the country. It means that Cailan will never produce an heir no matter who he weds and beds, and there will be a fight for the crown when he dies. Cailan is also part of Eamon's political power. Some of his political power is based on his control of strategic Redcliffe, but some of it is also coming from his familial connection to the royal family. His sister was the king's mother. Cailan dying without an heir erases that advantage and he and his son (who was still the heir at that point) would not be related to a future king.

 

Also Anora mentions that Cailain kept mistresses on the side from time to time. The interesting thing about that line of dialogue, is that in no part of the series do we ever hear mention of Cailan having fathered bastards. It isn't definite proof that he is sterile, and it is still possible that Eamon could end up being right about Anora. It does however provide more reason to suspect the problem might have been with Cailan rather than Anora.


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#46
Kreator_Wrex

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Let me state from the off that I realise why sexual orientation is important to players but I am purely thinking about the game world of Thedas.   It is my understanding that there is no prejudice against homosexual relationships in Thedas.    In Masked Empire Celene is being criticised by her enemies not because she has a same sex lover but because that lover is an elf.   Even Gaspard's comment about her being lesbian accounting for why she refused his suit is surely more to assuage his ego since he knows full well that marriages among the nobility are done for political or economic reasons, not simply sexual attraction.   We also know that Celene was perfectly prepared to marry Cailan and presumably at some stage that marriage would have to have been consummated for it to be valid.  Besides the fact that Eamon was suggesting dumping Anora for not providing an heir so at some point Cailan would expect to bed Celene.

 

However, I was trying to think of situations where the sexual orientation of a character might cause problems.   The first that came to mind was in the City elf community, which could be relevant to Sera.    In DAO we are under pressure to marry for the sake of the community and these are arranged marriages of the opposite sex, clearly with the intent of producing children.   You can object all you want about the partner that has been selected for you but you seem to have no alternative but to comply or be a social outcast. 

 

In Thedas, homosexuality is viewed differently depending on culture, however no one culture in Thedas as we know of is really that hostile towards homosexuality. interracial love is really the hobby horse that everyone has jumped onto to lynch people for, not some man who finds out that he prefers eating a bag of apples rather than licking vaginas and vice versa. As pointed out in previous posts, in Ferelden, homosexual relationships are seen a wierd and odd, but are not looked down upon on a personal level. Orlesians don't really have any strange thoughts about homosexuals. It's not uncommon for Antivan Crows to have multiple relationships upon members of both sexes. The Chantry has no real moral viewpoint on homosexuality nor do the Qunari. Among nobility, there may be some parental and/or social pressure to carry on a heterosexual relationship to continue the noble family's bloodline, but this is more of a pragmatic viewpoint rather than a moral one. Dwarves and elves are dying races, so they most likely of all people will most definitely want as many heterosexual relationships among their own species as possible to continue their existances. Although both don't seem to have any problem with members of their species carrying out same-sex relationships among each other, they may quite possibly frown upon them, though they probably won't lynch you for such a thing, it is probably a somewhat social pressure among dalish elves, city elves, and dwarves to continue producing children in the numbers since dwarven fertility rates are pretty low and elves continue to be a dying race inching closer and closer to extinction by the day, however that same pressure would apply to those who don't wish to ever be married, not just to homosexuals.

 

I also thought that the Dalish, rather like the city elves, might put a degree of pressure on their members to pair up with the opposite sex because of the need to keep their numbers up but they don't seem to have arranged marriages in the same way the city elves do.   That elf girl (forget her name) was able to refuse her admirer's suit because he had not yet proved himself, so clearly being able to provide for your partner and any children is the priority in Dalish culture.     Which made me consider another thing, there is no polygamy in Thedas.    In a culture like the Dalish, where for very understandable reasons you need to be able to prove yourself as a hunter to be acceptable as a suitor, why do not the more able hunters have more than one wife?

 

This would make some sense to some level, if there is a need to keep numbers up among Dalish clans then why not just let the bi and straight males mate with multiple women so long as the women continue squeezing out the crib lizards in masses? It makes perfect sense, but from a biological and maybe psychological stand point, maybe not so much. I'm not a chick, so I can't say this from a personal level, but I've been told this time and time again is that what a woman wants to make is love, rather than sex. In simpler words, that means that they would much rather be having sex organs inserted into them because you love them and she loves you. They both involve the same thing, which is sexual intercourse, but the woman in question will almost absolutely want the intercourse to motivated by love and not lust. That's not to say that their aren't women out there who enjoy having sex organs being inserted into their bodies or having money shots on their faces merely for the fun of it. A quick look at any porn actress can make this abundantly clear. However, keep in mind that this one or possibly more crotch dropling(s) coming out of this one woman will require her care and housing, which can be a lot of work for one just one woman to do, so if she's going to have to know that daddy is possibly going to have another batch of kids on the other end of the dales to help bring up, then that might have the woman in question feeling a bit cheated. From a biological stand point however, monogamy reduces a chance of spreading STD's out rampantly, if one infected male goes out having sex with 50 other women, and let's say 30 of the women end up with the STD, that means that there will be 30 more STD infected kids possibly coming and contracting their own STD's onto partners, so you can see how this has a bit of a snowballing effect so you can see how this can sort of be at least kept to a minimum by limiting people to one partner.

 

A second example might be the Grey Wardens.   They clearly have no problem with relationships outside of the Wardens, since for the most part you are meant to leave these behind.    However, how would they view relationships within their ranks.   Would they frown on any relationship because concern for your lover might put a mission at risk?   Would they feel, like the Spartans, that a m/m relationship would strengthen the bonds of brotherhood?   Or would they regard it in some way as a sign of weakness?    I still can't get over the fact that they made Anders get rid of his cat, so this idea isn't as daft as it sounds.   Incidentally I seem to recall that women are not nearly as common within their ranks as men.

 

Grey Warden women are already infertile to begin with, it comes with them becoming a Grey Warden, so there would ultimately be no ultimate setback to female Wardens having relationships with other Wardens just so long as they don't interfere with their duty as a Grey Warden. The same can be said among male members of the group. Even among the male members of the group, having sex is not advisable. Wardens like the dwarves are infected with the taint of the darkspawn, so concieving a child is made very difficult and if both of them are Wardens, the chances are next to nothing. This also comes into the fact even if the Grey Wardens manage not to get killed battle, they most likely will not live past middle age, which makes them very poor candidates for long-term parenthood. Grey Wardens may be able to enjoy a certain reputation for sexual prowess though. Duncan had a brief affair with a Circle mage hinted in Dragon Age: The Calling. Furthermore, with that said, I think it would make sense to know that, Wardens don't really care about other Wardens having relationships with others, let alone who they are having a relationship with, just that it doesn't affect their duty as a Grey Warden.

 

Alternatively, why does it have to be the male who proves themselves to the female and not the other way round?

 

I've pondered and thought about this myself many times to myself and could never quite understand why a woman will go about trying to get a man's attention rather than just approaching the man herself and trying to prove herself to him. This certainly doesn't make any sense to know this and doesn't seem fair either, but whether it's a stick up the ass called tradition or if it's just some way women are wired, I really cant say. This however can vary from culture to culture, there may have or be some culture out where the female proves herself to the male, but if such a culture did/does exist, I don't know of it. I do know that in Ancient Greek times, polygamy was totally normal and that one Greek male could "possess" multiple females and such attitudes would spread to the Romans until Tiberius dropped the axe on such a thing which would become a philosophy that stands today, so you could say that women were ultimately "proving themselves" as legitimate bond material to the males, but such a thing can be debated. However, such a thing could be argued that their is some sort of "proving yourself" value among women to men. Have you ever noticed how women can become very catty and mean to each other when they both like the same guy? Have you ever noticed when a woman is interested in a man and then when another woman shows interest in the man and the woman precieves the other woman in question as more attractive than her, she then ultimately goes to hate the living hell out of the other woman out of pure jealousy? This may be somewhat of a signal, that there may indeed be a little bit of a sense of a woman proving herself to a man.



#47
Zandilar

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I think the assumption that Anora was infertifle was wishful thinking on Eamon's part. He needs Anora to be infertifle, because Cailan being sterile is a disaster both for him and the country. It means that Cailan will never produce an heir no matter who he weds and beds, and there will be a fight for the crown when he dies. Cailan is also part of Eamon's political power. Some of his political power is based on his control of strategic Redcliffe, but some of it is also coming from his familial connection to the royal family. His sister was the king's mother. Cailan dying without an heir erases that advantage and he and his son (who was still the heir at that point) would not be related to a future king.

 

Also Anora mentions that Cailain kept mistresses on the side from time to time. The interesting thing about that line of dialogue, is that in no part of the series do we ever hear mention of Cailan having fathered bastards. It isn't definite proof that he is sterile, and it is still possible that Eamon could end up being right about Anora. It does however provide more reason to suspect the problem might have been with Cailan rather than Anora.

 

My head canon has always been that Cailan was the infertile one, largely because of the mistresses/no bastards point you made. If people think that the people in the know wouldn't know about Cailan's bastards, they'd be wrong. That's definitely something I'd have people looking at if I was a Queen and knew my King was philandering around behind my back, or if I was someone whose power base depended on a smooth succession and knew the King was sleeping around. I think the last thing Eamon would want would be for a bastard son (or daugher?) of Cailan's to pop up just as he was getting ready to put a crown on Alistair's head (or even after that) - since the bastard would probably have a stronger claim than Alistair... Civil war, in that case, would probably be unavoidable.

 

Of course, Eamon's plans aren't helped by Alistair being a Warden either, if you go the marry Anora to Alistair route in DAO, since Wardens aren't known for being particularly fertile (in fact, they're known for just the opposite). Actually, it always bothered me that anyone would want to crown a Grey Warden - they're not particularly fertile, plus they only live 30 or so years... Plus they have their oaths to serve the order, which would mean they'd have divided loyalties. Anyway... just musing here.


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#48
Sjofn

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I always interpreted Cammen's problem not being that he has to prove himself as a MANLY PROVIDER, but as an ADULT. The lady Dalish elves are all hunters and stuff too, after all. His potential girlfriend is sitting around in the same leathers as the rest of them, and I am pretty sure she says her issue is that in the eyes of the clan, he's still a kid. Every adult in the clan has to pull their weight, if you will, and right now he's not proven he can pull his like she's (presumably, since she's an "adult") proven she can.


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#49
Former_Fiend

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To be perfectly fair, I don't think it's ever specifically pointed out that Cailen definitely, as a matter of absolute fact, didn't have any bastards. For all we know he had a dozen of them and was just better at hiding them/was a much worse parent than his own father. 

 

Now, I don't think Cailen had any bastard kids, but at the same time, if Bioware ever wants that to become a plot point, I don't think there's anything preventing them from doing so.



#50
BioWareM0d13

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To be perfectly fair, I don't think it's ever specifically pointed out that Cailen definitely, as a matter of absolute fact, didn't have any bastards. For all we know he had a dozen of them and was just better at hiding them/was a much worse parent than his own father. 

 

Now, I don't think Cailen had any bastard kids, but at the same time, if Bioware ever wants that to become a plot point, I don't think there's anything preventing them from doing so.

 

Right, that's why the lack of mention of them isn't definite proof that he is sterile. There could also be other reasons beyond sterility for not having bastard children. 

 

But the lack of mention of bastards does provide more reason to suspect Cailan is the problem, than Anora. I don't think Eamon had any particular reason to suspect Anora was infertile beyond the fact that she hadn't given birth to any children, and Eamon needs the problem to be hers rather than Cailan's.