182 réponses à ce sujet

[Mirrman70]

I dunno why people like to think that DA:O was the pinnacle of all realistic combat in a video game, because it wasn't, and it didn't even come close.

 

neither did Dragon's Dogma or Dark Souls but people like to use those as comparisons too.

[Rawgrim]

Right. No such thing should be allowed in videogames. This is serious business! We're grown ups, mature adults, we hate the frelling cartoons!

 

But really, where do you draw the line? OP doesn't mind weapon trails, but erm body trails somehow irk him. Well how is former better than the latter? It's pretty arbitrary. Some people didn't mind overstrained animations in DAO but were up in arms about over-the-top animations in DA2. And I don't see why.

 

Do these effects communicate something to the player? Yes. They're not there for nothing, they serve a vital purpose. That is all that really matters. Is it really that hard to look at things differently in order to enjoy the game? I'm not a big fan of the flashy combat myself, but I know that whine as I might it's not gonna change, so why not just roll with it?

 

 

Jumping abit to conclusions, arn`t you? I don`t mind cartoony stuff at all if the game in question looks cartoony to begin with. I just feel it messes with the belivability of its supposed to be a dark story with a mature rating, when the combat (or anything else for that matter) looks like its from the cartoon network.

 

Its a matter of personal taste. Nothing else.

[Rawgrim]

It's a fantasy video game, I'm not bothered by a lack of realism in combat. 

 

 

By that logic we should be able to summon our own version of the Death Star for no good reason other than "its fantasy" too.

[Rawgrim]

Regular combat never made sense in a DA game.

 

That doesn`t mean making it make even less sense is a good idea.

[cindercatz]

If immersion is your thing, Soul Series is better suit. Or you can always go back and play good old days RPG.

 

DA is a lot more immersive than Souls to me. Why do people always bring up Souls anyway? Ok, so I got Dark Souls for free last week on XBL Gold. It's not at all what I mean when I talk about immersion or realism. It's old school arcade dodge and hit with clunky controls, mostly drab visuals, and arcadey, plodding animation. I played it about an hour and hated it, so I just deleted it. That's like turning down free food.

 

I mentioned dodge animations in my earlier post. I'm talking about stat and passive/ability based auto-dodge/parry/block like in KoTOR and DA:O to an extent, with paired up animation on the level of Arkham's counter animations. Things that play into and spice up basic combat. Like the finishers in DA:O.Things that make me want to avoid using special moves when I'm in good shape just so I can watch my character dance a little bit. That's much more visually exciting than a flashy light spark. I do not in any way, shape, or form want DA to be anything like the Souls series. Just wanted to clarify.

[The Elder King]

That doesn`t mean making it make even less sense is a good idea.

I'm not saying it is. My point is that they clearly aren't going for a realistic type of gameplay, but for one full of exaggeration and over the top animations and abilities (for example, magical auras for warriors and rogues were already present in DAO). That was clear to me since DAO. While I'd prefer if they tone down certain animations and effects, I'm not expecting this to happen. I'm expecting the opposite.
Oh, and while there might be more over the top animations and effects (we still don't know that), the gameplay, at least for me, already reached the point where it doesn't make any sense in DAO. While it might be worse in DA2 and possibly DAI, I've already reached the point where I separate it from the lore.
I understand that for many it isn't like this, but that's how I feel.

[Tamahome560]

It just looks silly, to me anyway. There are ways to make combat look awesome (investing in animations) without having to add rainbow effects everywhere. Hey look my next attack is a powerful one, it's a generic slash but it glows pink....

 

Or I'm running so fast that I'm bending the fabric of space and creating an energy trail behind me...

 

*sigh*

[Char]

I'm not going to lie, I don't play fantasy games for the realism.

I like the sparkles, the shinies and the special effects because the PC -is- special. I also find it useful when each ability has a distinctive 'look' because it allows me to know at a glance what the companions have just used, rather than having to carefully watch their swing pattern. I am very happy to suspend my disbelief in this are a for the sake of exaggerated combat, but I am aware there are many people who don't share my opinion. But that's OK I like it when people disagree with me, broadens my horizons

[abnocte]

I'm not saying it is. My point is that they clearly aren't going for a realistic type of gameplay,

*snip*

 

In not asking for realistic combat, but believable combat inside the setting.

 

So if the setting is telling me that magic is feared and limited to those who are born with the "gift" I don't understand why people that don't have the "gift" have abilities that look like magic...

 

It breaks the setting, does not make any sense to me...

[Maraas]

It breaks the setting

The effects don't "break" anything. Those are just hyperboles, visual hyperboles, if you will. As David Gaider puts it: I wouldn’t say any of the armor in Dragon Age particularly strives for realism— nor does the combat system, with people getting regularly bombarded by fireballs and arrows, aim for anything more than abstraction [...]. When you read a fantasy novel and the hero "moves with a lightning speed" or something like that you don't take it literally, do you? You understand it's just a figure of speech.

 

The same principle applies here. It's not a grimdark documentary of Thedas, it's a fairy tale. Or a fantasy novel, if you prefer. With all the exaggeration fitting the genre.

[The Elder King]

In not asking for realistic combat, but believable combat inside the setting.
 
So if the setting is telling me that magic is feared and limited to those who are born with the "gift" I don't understand why people that don't have the "gift" have abilities that look like magic...
 
It breaks the setting, does not make any sense to me...

I wasn't even believable in DAO. We had rangers summoning animals, Champions ripping off a Dovahkin ability and using magical aura, bards using their voce to Paralyze enemies and using magical auras, bersekers using magical auras. We have archers using skills that Paralyze the enemies.
As I said, I would like if they toned all this down. I just don't see it happening.

[Gileadan]

Then how do we tell the difference between visual hyperboles and what really happened?

 

If a warrior or rogue uses a super-flashy, magic-sparkley move, it's a visual hyperbole. Could be.

If a mage launches a fireball, is it also a visual hyperbole? If so, why are templars getting so worked up over it?

 

What all this flashy stuff does is making all three classes look equally "magical", but for some strange reason only one of them is subject to heavy sanctioning because their sparkles come with potential demonic corruption in the fine print.

 

I know that Origins also had flashy effects and I was no fan of them. But in Origins, the persecution of mages was portrayed less intensely. Sure, Ser Bryant or whatever his name was gave Morrigan a frown, but then (wisely) decided that there was bigger stuff to worry about. Wynne could leave with the Warden without any trouble, heck, half the circle could make a tour to Redcliffe to help sort out the Connor problem.

 

It was DA2 that decided that all this was not obvious enough (along with other things like the looks of elves and Qunari). DA2 changed templars into armor-plated fascists and mages into 90%-gaga-demon-bait. And that change, that drastic increase of conflict between mages and templars also made magical effects on non-magical classes that much more of a setting-saboteur.

 

If this setting aspect of "magic is heavily sanctioned because of its potential of demonic corruption" is to be believable, then only mages need to look like they actually use magic. If everyone also looks like a magic user once the action starts, where is the point in singling out mages? Are they the only ones who haven't figured out the sanity-friendly eco-magic warriors and rogues must be using?

[The Elder King]

Then how do we tell the difference between visual hyperboles and what really happened?
 
If a warrior or rogue uses a super-flashy, magic-sparkley move, it's a visual hyperbole. Could be.
If a mage launches a fireball, is it also a visual hyperbole? If so, why are templars getting so worked up over it?
 
What all this flashy stuff does is making all three classes look equally "magical", but for some strange reason only one of them is subject to heavy sanctioning because their sparkles come with potential demonic corruption in the fine print.
 
I know that Origins also had flashy effects and I was no fan of them. But in Origins, the persecution of mages was portrayed less intensely. Sure, Ser Bryant or whatever his name was gave Morrigan a frown, but then (wisely) decided that there was bigger stuff to worry about. Wynne could leave with the Warden without any trouble, heck, half the circle could make a tour to Redcliffe to help sort out the Connor problem.
 
It was DA2 that decided that all this was not obvious enough (along with other things like the looks of elves and Qunari). DA2 changed templars into armor-plated fascists and mages into 90%-gaga-demon-bait. And that change, that drastic increase of conflict between mages and templars also made magical effects on non-magical classes that much more of a setting-saboteur.
 
If this setting aspect of "magic is heavily sanctioned because of its potential of demonic corruption" is to be believable, then only mages need to look like they actually use magic. If everyone also looks like a magic user once the action starts, where is the point in singling out mages? Are they the only ones who haven't figured out the sanity-friendly eco-magic warriors and rogues must be using?

DAO made already pretty clear that mages are treated vastly different from the rest of the population. Regardless of how templars and mages act between DAO and DA2, the difference was clear. Other than you exaggerate (there were three, for mages in Redcliffe), we have one mage (the one killed by Quentin in Act 1) who was able to leave the Circle to meet a person with the consent of the templars, and Bethany was able to leave the Circle in the dlc. And the game states that the templars in Kirkwall are more harsh then the ones in Ferelden (as for the mages being demon bait, the Veil is particulary thin in Kirkwall).

I disagree completely that the situation in DA2 made the gameplay more setting-saboteur. DAO made pretty clear that pnly a part of the population can use magic. The companions made pretty clear that they weren't mages (Oghren can't be one. Sten talks about the different treatment of mages in qunari society, and Alistair is a templar). All of them can use abilities that can be considered magical. We have our Warden, which is pretty clear he's not a mage (unless you choose the Origin) using flashy magical abilities. Unless someone played the game without keeping attention of what was said on the screen, you can't possibly think warrior or rogue could be mages. And yet they used magical abilities.

[Gileadan]

DAO made already pretty clear that mages are treated vastly different from the rest of the population. Regardless of how templars and mages act between DAO and DA2, the difference was clear. Other than you exaggerate (there were three, for mages in Redcliffe), we have one mage (the one killed by Quentin in Act 1) who was able to leave the Circle to meet a person with the consent of the templars, and Bethany was able to leave the Circle in the dlc. And the game states that the templars in Kirkwall are more harsh then the ones in Ferelden (as for the mages being demon bait, the Veil is particulary thin in Kirkwall).

I disagree completely that the situation in DA2 made the gameplay more setting-saboteur. DAO made pretty clear that pnly a part of the population can use magic. The companions made pretty clear that they weren't mages (Oghren can't be one. Sten talks about the different treatment of mages in qunari society, and Alistair is a templar). All of them can use abilities that can be considered magical. We have our Warden, which is pretty clear he's not a mage (unless you choose the Origin) using flashy magical abilities. Unless someone played the game without keeping attention of what was said on the screen, you can't possibly think warrior or rogue could be mages. And yet they used magical abilities.

Wynne was able to leave just fine. Didn't Finn in Witch Hunt leave the circle too? Don't remember the details of that one, to be honest.

 

Yes, I know the veil was thin in Kirkwall... which makes you wonder why anyone established a circle there in the first place. It's like building a hospital next to a burnt-out reactor.

 

I know mages were treated diffferently in Origins. I know everyone looked like they used magic, that's what I said in the previous post. And I concluded that rogues and warriors should not look like they used magic because magic users are treated differently. There needs to be a clear visual distinction between mundane fighting and magical abilities, because otherwise it makes no sense to pick only on mages for using magic.

[The Elder King]

Wynne was able to leave just fine. Didn't Finn in Witch Hunt leave the circle too? Don't remember the details of that one, to be honest.
 
Yes, I know the veil was thin in Kirkwall... which makes you wonder why anyone established a circle there in the first place. It's like building a hospital next to a burnt-out reactor.
 
I know mages were treated diffferently in Origins. I know everyone looked like they used magic, that's what I said in the previous post. And I concluded that rogues and warriors should not look like they used magic because magic users are treated differently. There needs to be a clear visual distinction between mundane fighting and magical abilities, because otherwise it makes no sense to pick only on mages for using magic.

Keep in mind that they were both temporary leaves, as Ines in DAA and Bethany in Legacy and MotA (though Wynne did acquire exceptional right and freedom, as shown in Asunder). Mages that proved themselves can obtain more freedom.
I understand your point, but those animations in DAO (as other things in the combat), made me apply a complete gameplay/lore segregation.

[Gileadan]

Keep in mind that they were both temporary leaves, as Ines in DAA and Bethany in Legacy and MotA (though Wynne did acquire exceptional right and freedom, as shown in Asunder). Mages that proved themselves can obtain more freedom.
I understand your point, but those animations in DAO (as other things in the combat), made me apply a complete gameplay/lore segregation.

Yeah... applying gameplay/lore segregation is probably the wise thing to do. Maybe I just have a harder time doing that with the new DA:I effects or something. It just struck me as less obvious in Origins for some reason. Nostalgia, maybe.

[Rawgrim]

The effects don't "break" anything. Those are just hyperboles, visual hyperboles, if you will. As David Gaider puts it: I wouldn’t say any of the armor in Dragon Age particularly strives for realism— nor does the combat system, with people getting regularly bombarded by fireballs and arrows, aim for anything more than abstraction [...]. When you read a fantasy novel and the hero "moves with a lightning speed" or something like that you don't take it literally, do you? You understand it's just a figure of speech.

 

The same principle applies here. It's not a grimdark documentary of Thedas, it's a fairy tale. Or a fantasy novel, if you prefer. With all the exaggeration fitting the genre.

 

 

So what is belivable about building castles and gates when Cassandra can smash through them with 2 jabs of her shield? Bulding a castle, and siege engines, gets rendered pointless. And summon rocks out of the ground everytime you swing a sword at it. No need to have quaries anymore if that is possible.

 

Plenty of fantasy novels don`t have people jumping around and spinning around like some anime hero. While they do have fantasy elements, those elements have rules, and the author sticks to those rules. Harry Potter can`t summon a huge spaceship with his wand, for example. The magic in that story doesn`t work like that. The dragon age lore, the codex, and in-game information given to us, tells us only mages use magic. The magic they use even has limitations. Having a non-mage being able to summon rocks out of the blue, and rogues being able to turn invisible or teleport about, breaks those rules. Once the rules don`t matter, the integrity of the story and gameworld falls apart.

 

Personal opinion, though. Its ok if others don`t share it.

 

This is the awsomme button all over again. People loved that one.

[The Elder King]

 

So what is belivable about building castles and gates when Cassandra can smash through them with 2 jabs of her shield? Bulding a castle, and siege engines, gets rendered pointless. And summon rocks out of the ground everytime you swing a sword at it. No need to have quaries anymore if that is possible.
 
Plenty of fantasy novels don`t have people jumping around and spinning around like some anime hero. While they do have fantasy elements, those elements have rules, and the author sticks to those rules. Harry Potter can`t summon a huge spaceship with his wand, for example. The magic in that story doesn`t work like that. The dragon age lore, the codex, and in-game information given to us, tells us only mages use magic. The magic they use even has limitations. Having a non-mage being able to summon rocks out of the blue, and rogues being able to turn invisible or teleport about, breaks those rules. Once the rules don`t matter, the integrity of the story and gameworld falls apart.
 
Personal opinion, though. Its ok if others don`t share it.
 
This is the awsomme button all over again. People loved that one.

I don't know. I recall most didn't like that marketing line. I surely didn't like it.
I'm curious, you said multiple times that were things you didn't like of DAO's gameplay as well. Didn't those think destroy the integrrity of the story and the gameworld as well?

[Roninbarista]

I don't mind the visuals because from my perspective, that's part of the game.  

[abnocte]

I wasn't even believable in DAO. We had rangers summoning animals, Champions ripping off a Dovahkin ability and using magical aura, bards using their voce to Paralyze enemies and using magical auras, bersekers using magical auras. We have archers using skills that Paralyze the enemies.
As I said, I would like if they toned all this down. I just don't see it happening.

 

At no point did I mention DAO as a reference, I'm well aware it had the same issue, but when compared to DA2 it at least didn't have animations the were the hyperbole of an already hyperbolated hyperbole...

[The Elder King]

At no point did I mention DAO as a reference, I'm well aware it had the same issue, but when compared to DA2 it at least didn't have animations the were the hyperbole of an already hyperbolated hyperbole...

I didn't mean that you were using DAO as a reference. I mentioned it for my point that they never wanted to create a believable gameplay.

[Maraas]

Plenty of fantasy novels don`t have people jumping around and spinning around like some anime hero. While they do have fantasy elements, those elements have rules, and the author sticks to those rules. 

It's not about rules, it's about exaggeration. And it's not about people actually jumping around like some anime hero (what's wrong with that, btw?)—it's about author emphasizing speed, or strength or something. "He was quick and strong" is just dull thing to say if you want attention and interest. Here's an excerpt from Last argument of kings, by Joe Abercrombie.

Spoiler

He came forward, taller than the mountains, and the men shuffled, and muttered, and spread out from him. A circle of shields, of painted designs, of flowering trees, and rippling water, and snarling faces.

Their words tickled at his ears.

'It's him.'

'Ninefingers.'

'The Bloody-Nine!'

A circle of fear, with him at the centre, and they were wise to fear.

Their deaths were written in the shapes of sweet blood on the bitter ground. Their deaths were whispered in the buzzing of the flies on the corpses beyond the wall. Their deaths were stamped on their faces, carried on the wind, held in the crooked line between the mountains and the sky. Dead men, all.

'Who's next to the mud?' he whispered.

A bold Carl stepped forward, a shield on his arm with a coiled serpent upon it. Before he could even lift his spear the Bloody-Nine's sword had made a great circle, above the top of his shield and below the bottom of his helmet. The point of the blade stole the jawbone from his head, cleaved into the shoulder of the next man, ate deep into his chest and drove him into the earth, blood flying from his silent mouth. Another man loomed up and the sword fell on him like a falling star, crushed his helmet and the skull beneath it down to his mouth. The body dropped on its back and danced a merry jig in the dirt.

'Dance!' laughed the Bloody-Nine, and the sword reeled around him. He filled the air with blood, and broken weapons, and the parts of men, and these good things wrote secret letters, and described sacred patterns that only he could see and understand. Blades pricked and nicked and dug at him but they were nothing. He repaid each mark upon his burning skin one-hundred fold, and the Bloody-Nine laughed, and the wind, and the fire, and the faces on the shields laughed with him, and could not stop.

He was the storm in the High Places, his voice as terrible as the thunder, his arm as quick, as deadly, as pitiless as the lightning. He rammed the sword through a man's guts, ripped it back and smashed a man's mouth apart with the pommel, snatched his spear away with his free hand and flung it through the neck of a third, split a Carl's side yawning open as he passed. He reeled, spun, rolled, drunken dizzy, spitting fire and laughter. He forged a new circle about him. A circle as wide as the giant's sword. A circle in which the world belonged to him.

See what I mean? You do not take such things at face value, but they make the description more vivid and expressive. And that's what art is actually about. How do you picture something like that in a videogame? I can easily see this thing made in DAI's visual style.

 

Of course, exaggeration is not the only tool in visual arts, but it's still valid. 

[Rawgrim]

  I don't know. I recall most didn't like that marketing line. I surely didn't like it.
I'm curious, you said multiple times that were things you didn't like of DAO's gameplay as well. Didn't those think destroy the integrrity of the story and the gameworld as well?

 

 

Ohh I was going for irony with that marketing line

 

Yes. I have. But they wern`t so constant and "in your face" as it was in DA2. I see it happening in DA:I as well. Think of it as a threshold. You can tollerate some things here and there. But when practically evrey move is oozing of "magic", it gets harder not to keep noticing it.

[The Hierophant]

Me personaly i'd prefer it if there were few laser lightshow displays from rogues and warriors, but i won't lose any sleep over the special effects. Whereas lorewise, with Fade and the physical realm merging i doubt the team needs an elaborate explaination for amping up the fireworks.

Alternatively i'd like to see a weapon create a bloody arc after the initial swing on unarmored enemies, while armored leads to the creation of infrequent sparks and a dent or two. Wouldn't mind seeing air distortion from a weapon swing either. Despite us not knowing the specifics of the character's abilities/sustains during the vid, the combat looks good despite some clipping with that HD.

[Rawgrim]

I didn't mean that you were using DAO as a reference. I mentioned it for my point that they never wanted to create a believable gameplay.

 

 

DA:O wasn`t the pinacle of belivability either. Far from it. But for the most part, the game followed the rules of this and that, that the game told the player. If they tell us this it how it works, don`t go a 180 in the next one.