938 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

. Also, making all the female companions LI (+ Scribbles it seems) looks more like objectifying women than offering choice to me.

 

Even if they all are LIs though, they won't all be interested in the Inquisitor in a single playthrough. Sera for example, won't be interested in a male Inquisitor. Presumably there will be a heterosexual female LI who isn't interested in the female inquisitor either. So even if all three of the female companions are potential LIs, I don't agree that it somehow objectifies women. There would always be at least one in any playthrough who wasn't interested. 

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

This is a really good point.  The only female character that I even am interested in is Vivienne, so yeah, I kind of want her to be an LI.  I didn't actually think about the fact that the other two female companions are already confirmed and, with Cullen as an NPC LI, it's likely that Scribe Girl will be one too.  So I guess that would put Vivienne on the bubble. 

 

I also like to see racial diversity in the human LI's.  I have to say that Bioware does a better job of that than most considering that in the ME and DA series, we have:

 

PoC - Kaidan, Jacob, Steve, Traynor, and Isabela

non-PoC - Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Kelly, Alistair, Morrigan, Leliana, and Anders

 

So while it's definitely skewed in favor of non-PoC's, it's not nearly as skewed as most media (I just found a statistic from a USC study that suggests that in 2012, only 24% of speaking roles in film and television were PoC).  Clearly, the DA team has a bit of work to do around this, though.

Well, the DA team is limited to what Bioware and EA allow them put in; that's important to remember, too.

Also, with speaking roles, 24% is decent, considering that only 22% of Americans are reported to be POC, however, when you're looking at the statistics, MEANINGFUL speaking roles are much lower. Those statistics include one line throw aways, even.

Regardless, we're far off from true, reflected equality.

[wetnasty]

This is a really good point.  The only female character that I even am interested in is Vivienne, so yeah, I kind of want her to be an LI.  I didn't actually think about the fact that the other two female companions are already confirmed and, with Cullen as an NPC LI, it's likely that Scribe Girl will be one too.  So I guess that would put Vivienne on the bubble. 

 

I also like to see racial diversity in the human LI's.  I have to say that Bioware does a better job of that than most considering that in the ME and DA series, we have:

 

PoC - Kaidan, Jacob, Steve, Traynor, and Isabela

non-PoC - Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Kelly, Alistair, Morrigan, Leliana, and Anders

 

So while it's definitely skewed in favor of non-PoC's, it's not nearly as skewed as most media (I just found a statistic from a USC study that suggests that in 2012, only 24% of speaking roles in film and television were PoC).  Clearly, the DA team has a bit of work to do around this, though.

 

Wait, what races are Kaidan and Traynor? News to me that Traynor was even being considered as a WoC...

[FraQ]

Yeah, I'm not even going to try and agrue my stance on this. People are so quick to cry wolf in today's society it's ridiculous.

 

Movies become way less enjoyable when people start throwing accusations that Han sexually assaulted Leia in The Empire Strikes back, or that Mary Jane sexually assaulted Spiderman in Spiderman.

 

Aveline never said she wasn't interested in Hawke and though my memory is admittedly hazy regarding that game, I don't recall her ever comprehending that Hawke was interested in her.

 

Now if she had understood what Hawke was getting at and told him that she wasn't interested and he had then tried to kiss her. That's where I would start thinking the word 'Sexual Assault' was appropriate. However, given that he was trying to tell her and she wasn't understanding. Given that they had be close friends for YEARS at that point, I personally view an innocent kiss to be "Okay."

 

As for the Zevren comments, I'm sure alot of people would have been horrified if that had happened. Can you say the same if Isabella had kissed the male Hawke out of the blue? It's a double standard. I personally wouldn't have been that upset. It's a simple enough thing to say, "Sorry but I'm not interested." Especially since we are talking about a freaking video game, in a fictional world.

[wetnasty]

Well, the DA team is limited to what Bioware and EA allow them put in; that's important to remember, too.

Also, with speaking roles, 24% is decent, considering that only 22% of Americans are reported to be POC, however, when you're looking at the statistics, MEANINGFUL speaking roles are much lower. Those statistics include one line throw aways, even.

Regardless, we're far off from true, reflected equality.

 

Speaking roles =/= starring roles

 

Nobody wants to be the drug dealer or the maid. 

 

But this is way off topic so let's go back to Bioware games. 

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

Wait, what races are Kaidan and Traynor? News to me that Traynor was even being considered as a WoC...

Traynor is Indian descent raised in Britain, and Kaidan has a good deal of racial ancestry. Pretty much everyone seems to have some multi racial history in the ME world, though.

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

Speaking roles =/= starring roles

 

Nobody wants to be the drug dealer or the maid. 

 

But this is way off topic so let's go back to Bioware games. 

That was my point, yeah.

Anyways! It's nice for the wide variety of characters.

[wetnasty]

Yeah, I'm not even going to try and agrue my stance on this. People are so quick to cry wolf in today's society it's ridiculous.

 

Movies become way less enjoyable when people start throwing accusations that Han sexually assaulted Leia in The Empire Strikes back, or that Mary Jane sexually assaulted Spiderman in Spiderman.

 

Aveline never said she wasn't interested in Hawke and though my memory is admittedly hazy regarding that game, I don't recall her ever comprehending that Hawke was interested in her.

 

Now if she had understood what Hawke was getting at and told him that she wasn't interested and he had then tried to kiss her. That's where I would start thinking the word 'Sexual Assault' was appropriate. However, given that he was trying to tell her and she wasn't understanding. Given that they had be close friends for YEARS at that point, I personally view an innocent kiss to be "Okay."

 

As for the Zevren comments, I'm sure alot of people would have been horrified if that had happened. Can you say the same if Isabella had kissed the male Hawke out of the blue? It's a double standard. I personally wouldn't have been that upset. It's a simple enough thing to say, "Sorry but I'm not interested." Especially since we are talking about a freaking video game, in a fictional world.

 

1) Aveline never said she WAS interested in Hawke, so you should always assume someone is not at all interested unless you get word otherwise. Not the other way around.

 

2) If Aveline says she's interested in someone else, that should be enough confirmation for you to back off. 

 

3) Kisses may be "innocent" for you, but to most of the western adult world, kissing someone without their consent is considered "harassment." Try "innocently" kissing someone at your job and see how long you keep that job. 

 

4) So you would be horrified if Zevran kissed you at one point, but 2 sentences later you say that you wouldn't mind. Just which is it?

 

 

and finally, you need to realize that just because you, as a straight man, are ok with it doesn't mean women should be ok with you forcing yourself on them. The power dynamics are completely different, and women do not owe you anything just because "you've been friends for a long time." Nothing makes it ok for you to push yourself on women, fictional or not. 

[Vapaa]

Jesus call the poor girl Samantha

[Caja]

 

PoC - Kaidan, Jacob, Steve, Traynor, and Isabela

non-PoC - Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Kelly, Alistair, Morrigan, Leliana, and Anders

 

So while it's definitely skewed in favor of non-PoC's, it's not nearly as skewed as most media (I just found a statistic from a USC study that suggests that in 2012, only 24% of speaking roles in film and television were PoC).  Clearly, the DA team has a bit of work to do around this, though.

I just have to ask: What does PoC stand for? My Google search led me to Phone Operation Centre, Proof Of Concept and People On Caffeine.

[Basement Cat]

and finally, you need to realize that just because you, as a straight man, are ok with it doesn't mean women should be ok with you forcing yourself on them. The power dynamics are completely different, and women do not owe you anything just because "you've been friends for a long time." Nothing makes it ok for you to push yourself on women, fictional or not. 

To add to this: it's easy to say you "wouldn't mind", because the person doing it is physically attractive, but that does not make it ok either. Being beautiful is not a free pass to force yourself on anyone, male or female, straight or gay or anything else. 

 

Oh, and kissing someone without consent is full blown assault. Not just harrassement.

[wetnasty]

I just have to ask: What does PoC stand for? My Google search led me Phone Operation Centre, Proof Of Concept and People On Caffeine.

PoC = Person of color

 

WoC = Woman of color

[SnakeCode]

Honestly, characters should be able to tell the PC they aren't interested for whatever reason they wish. That's why I (understand, but) don't agree with those arguing against the race-gating. All it is, is a character turning you down for reasons of their own.

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

1) Aveline never said she WAS interested in Hawke, so you should always assume someone is not at all interested unless you get word otherwise. Not the other way around.

 

2) If Aveline says she's interested in someone else, that should be enough confirmation for you to back off. 

 

3) Kisses may be "innocent" for you, but to most of the western adult world, kissing someone without their consent is considered "harassment." Try "innocently" kissing someone at your job and see how long you keep that job. 

 

4) So you would be horrified if Zevran kissed you at one point, but 2 sentences later you say that you wouldn't mind. Just which is it?

 

 

and finally, you need to realize that just because you, as a straight man, are ok with it doesn't mean women should be ok with you forcing yourself on them. The power dynamics are completely different, and women do not owe you anything just because "you've been friends for a long time." Nothing makes it ok for you to push yourself on women, fictional or not. 

Also, kissing someone because if you asked they might say no comes off as a bit rapey.

[Kallimachus]

Kaidan was a person of colour? Really? He didn't really look it... Was it mentioned in a back story and I missed it?

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

Kaidan was a person of colour? Really? He didn't really look it... Was it mentioned in a back story and I missed it?

They don't linger on it over much- but going based on details he reveals, it is heavily implied.

[Kallimachus]

They don't linger on it over much- but going based on details he reveals, it is heavily implied.

 

Guess it went over my head...

[tmp7704]

Now if she had understood what Hawke was getting at and told him that she wasn't interested and he had then tried to kiss her. That's where I would start thinking the word 'Sexual Assault' was appropriate. However, given that he was trying to tell her and she wasn't understanding. Given that they had be close friends for YEARS at that point, I personally view an innocent kiss to be "Okay."

Well, if she has trouble understanding what Hawke is blubbering about, then a far simpler and boundaries respecting way to clarify the intent to me would be maybe, I don't know, saying something as straightforward as "I love you"..? That doesn't leave much room for misunderstanding.

[FraQ]

1) Aveline never said she WAS interested in Hawke, so you should always assume someone is not at all interested unless you get word otherwise. Not the other way around.

 

2) If Aveline says she's interested in someone else, that should be enough confirmation for you to back off. 

 

3) Kisses may be "innocent" for you, but to most of the western adult world, kissing someone without their consent is considered "harassment." Try "innocently" kissing someone at your job and see how long you keep that job. 

 

4) So you would be horrified if Zevran kissed you at one point, but 2 sentences later you say that you wouldn't mind. Just which is it?

 

 

and finally, you need to realize that just because you, as a straight man, are ok with it doesn't mean women should be ok with you forcing yourself on them. The power dynamics are completely different, and women do not owe you anything just because "you've been friends for a long time." Nothing makes it ok for you to push yourself on women, fictional or not. 

 

No, I am not arguing this. It's entirely subjective and situational. There are rules of conduct, boundries, policies, codes, (what have you) for these situations and I'm fully aware of what 'Most of Western Adults' think on the subject. I abide by these rules just like you do, I work in an office evironment and I've never once had an issue. I don't appreciate being lectured on the subject, being treated like an idiot, or being called a "douchebag" for that matter for expressing my opinion on a scene in a video game.

 

If you disagree with me then that is fine, you can say so but save me the lectures and name calling please.

 

Also, I said that MANY PEOPLE would have been horrified if Zevran had kissed the male PC without asking in DAO but that I personally wouldn't have been offended. That it was part of a double standard that I don't understand or agree with.

[Tootles FTW]

Kaidan was a person of colour? Really? He didn't really look it... Was it mentioned in a back story and I missed it?

 

His facial model (Luciano Costa) is a latino man, I believe, and he lists his skin color as "olive" on his model resume.

[wetnasty]

No, I am not arguing this. It's entirely subjective and situational. There are rules of conduct, boundries, policies, codes, (what have you) for these situations and I'm fully aware of what 'Most of Western Adults' think on the subject. I abide by these rules just like you do, I work in an office evironment and I've never once had an issue. I don't appreciate being lectured on the subject, being treated like an idiot, or being called a "douchebag" for that matter for expressing my opinion on a scene in a video game.

 

If you disagree with me then that is fine, you can say so but save me the lectures and name calling please.

 

Also, I said that MANY PEOPLE would have been horrified if Zevran had kissed the male PC without asking in DAO but that I personally wouldn't have been offended. That it was part of a double standard that I don't understand or agree with.

 

But this all stems from you saying your love for Bioware games has "diminish greatly" because they wouldn't let you sexually harass someone... You can't be that daft to think that this would be ok, like no one has ever experienced unwanted attention from men (or women) and it never affected them personally. I can see if we were arguing over the mechanics of fireballs, but you're bringing up very real issues and basing your opinion on Bioware not letting you bury your bone forcefully. 

 

When they talk about making the journey your own, that has nothing to do with you pushing yourself on Aveline. You're the one that brought it up as a big deal, and now that you got backlash from it, you'd rather it not be seen as one. 

 

And for the record, I never called you a name. I'm just letting you know what you're preaching for has a name and it's wrong.

 

 

P.S. RE: "Double standard"

 

[daveliam]

Kaidan was a person of colour? Really? He didn't really look it... Was it mentioned in a back story and I missed it?

 

In addition to what was said above, it's also mentioned that his mother was exposed to Eezo in the Philippines.  It's not to say that she was ethnically Filipino, but it's suggested.  I think, as someone else mentioned, it's implied that there are many people of mixed ethnicity in the ME world.

[Caja]

His facial model (Luciano Costa) is a latino man, I believe, and he lists his skin color as "olive" on his model resume.

Thanks for sharing. I had no idea. I also thought that Kaidan didn't really look like a PoC. It must have slipped my mind that he mentions it to Shepard.

[FraQ]

But this all stems from you saying your love for Bioware games has "diminish greatly" because they wouldn't let you sexually harass someone... You can't be that daft to think that this would be ok, like no one has ever experienced unwanted attention from men (or women) and it never affected them personally. I can see if we were arguing over the mechanics of fireballs, but you're bringing up very real issues and basing your opinion on Bioware not letting you bury your bone forcefully. 

 

When they talk about making the journey your own, that has nothing to do with you pushing yourself on Aveline. You're the one that brought it up as a big deal, and now that you got backlash from it, you'd rather it not be seen as one. 

 

And for the record, I never called you a name. I'm just letting you know what you're preaching for has a name and it's wrong.

 

 

P.S. RE: "Double standard"

 

Go back and quote the part where I said my love of Bioware games is based on them letting me sexually harass someone. I said my interest would diminish if they give the love interests sexual orientations, because it limits the options I have to tell the story that I want to tell.

 

Which is important because as Bioware likes to preach, "This is your story."

 

In DA2, My Hawke saved a city and fell in love with a woman named Aveline. She never understood his feelings for her and Hawke never told her how he felt. So my Hawke ended up alone in the end. That is not the story I wanted to tell. It made me sad. That's all I was saying and there is nothing wrong with saying it.

 

Yes, I said the word Kiss. I'm sorry that offends you. I clearly didn't mean it in a "forcefully shoving my bone in her" way, I've been trying to clear that up for 3 posts now but something inside you feels the need to take it that way and berate me to no end.

 

I've been nothing but civil with you and yet you continue to treat me like an Idiot. Then tell me you aren't calling me names, while simultaneously calling me Daft.

 

Real nice.

 

The only time I used Double standard was in regards to how most of humanity would react to a man kissing another man without consent in comparison to a woman kissing a man without consent.

 

http://en.wikipedia....Double_standard

 

Yup, checks out.

[Ailith Tycane]

In DA2, My Hawke saved a city and fell in love with a woman named Aveline. She never understood his feelings for her and Hawke never told her how he felt. So my Hawke ended up alone in the end. That is not the story I wanted to tell. It made me sad. That's all I was saying and there is nothing wrong with saying it.

 

And why should anyone care? Not trying to be rude, but really, not everyone is sexually or romantically available to the player, just like real life.