25 réponses à ce sujet

[scott2978]

The Turians say "We won't leave our world to help you human, unless you bring the Krogans to help us defeat the reapers first" So... Shepard replies

 

"Krogans, great idea! Only, they hate you Turian. But they like me So I'll just leave you to your war here and go recruit the Krogans to help Earth, and when we're done liberating my people, if there's any of you left we'll come help you too. Thanks for the suggestion Turian!"

 

Not sure why Shepard wouldn't want to help Earth first. There's nothing in the story that would lead the audience to believe it wouldn't work.

[Excella Gionne]

Oh no. This might become a "potential" genophage thread to a degree.

 

To the OP: The krogans did get deployed on Palaven to help turian civilians and their military to push back the reapers. Krogans are deployed to some other worlds as well. Admiral Hackett will help explain some of these things to you given that you ask him about the status of the allegiances you've made.

[andy6915]

Considering in the end both Turians and Krogan are on Earth helping to fight Reapers, I think your selfish thinking would have just screwed you because you would have only Krogan instead of both. Good thing Shepard isn't as shortsighted as you.

[KaiserShep]

The plan is to build the Crucible, as well as have a substantial fleet to both protect it and combat the reapers long enough to deploy it. Without the turian fleet, there'd be no krogan on earth anyhow.

[Kabooooom]

That makes no sense, OP. A) The Turians have the strongest military in the galaxy. You need their help. Ideally, the help of both species would be best.. B ) retaking earth is, and always was, an idiotic strategy. It would end in failure and be a monumental waste of life and resources. The idea was that it wouldn't even be truly attempted ( except perhaps sending reinforcements to help the resistance) until the Crucible card was played. That the Citadel ended up being moved to earth was just a lucky coincidence.

I always took the "help for Earth" dialogue to mean "help for humanity". As in someone saying something along the lines of "I will devote my countries' armed forces to bring help for the United States", and whenever someone explicitly discussed taking back Earth, it was more of a promise in the sense of "someday" and NOT "hey lets go in right now with guns blazing like a bunch of dumbasses"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

See the Turians didn't realize that the goal was to destroy their fleet and military. The reapers were only going to make destroyers out of them because they were too primitive for anything else. Humans were special. Turians didn't understand that we were going to be the boss reaper. Even more boss than Harbinger, because ours was going to contain Shepard.

[Obadiah]

@scott2978
The Krogan have no military starships. They're a demilitarized state. Earth needs starships. They need infantry too, but they'd just be cannon fodder without starships to protect them.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Why WOULD Shepard want to help Earth first? 

Why wouldn't a colonist want to make sure Mindoir is fine?
Why would a spacer be particularly attached to Earth, and the spacer could've even grown up around "aliens."
Why would an earthborn really care about a place that was their version of hell?

Also, yeah, Earth is done for. No point in going back until the Citadel was moved there.  

[KaiserShep]

I imagine a human soldier would very likely have some sort of attachment to his/her own species, not just a specific location. Considering that Earth is where the bulk of humanity still resides, not wanting to become an endangered species is something to consider. Just a thought.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I imagine a human soldier would very likely have some sort of attachment to his/her own species, not just a specific location. Considering that Earth is where the bulk of humanity still resides, not wanting to become an endangered species is something to consider. Just a thought.

Not that I have any real experience with this, but I really wouldn't care about Earth any more than I would Palaven. Humans aren't worth anymore than Turians, in my mind. 

But really, I have no experience with this. 

[KaiserShep]

Then I guess that's what it really comes down to. Me, if there was some kind of crazy choice between sacrificing humanity and sacrificing the other species in the galaxy, I'd choose the latter every time.

[Kabooooom]

Not that I have any real experience with this, but I really wouldn't care about Earth any more than I would Palaven. Humans aren't worth anymore than Turians, in my mind.

But really, I have no experience with this.

One can rationalize that there should be no objective difference in value between one sapient species and another (actually between any species and another, we subjectively assign value to life based on nothing but meaningless preferences) - but my guess is that if it ever came down to it, biological self-interest would reign supreme over intellectual moral deduction.

[SwobyJ]

Yeah and the deal with Shepard is that he's always motivated by biological  and organizational (Alliance) self-interest. Paragon can take him out of that a bit, or add some more motivations, sure, but it wouldn't be enough to stop him from prioritizing Earth. Like it was said, Earth is where the vast majority of humans are. If they all die in the coming months, there isn't much of a human species left for the coming decades and possibly centuries.

 

If you want a 'human' protagonist that will automatically weigh the species more strategically and/or neutrally in the galactic scale, you'd need a protagonist a lot more 'synthetic' than Shepard is. Shepard becomes able to sympathize to some degree with aliens' predicaments, but he's not going to prioritize them. Bioware does give us enough Paragony reason to go for Earth - it is the hardest hit, the humans/Alliance is doing the most against the Reapers in terms of planning, and the galaxy needs humanity as a force to urge them to stick together in war. The Paragon lines focus on the loss happening on Earth, and why its important that we save as many as we can. Still species-centric, but more to do with the concept of death in the more universal sense, not some direct attachment to Earth compared to other planets.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

They rebuilt Mindoir, but it wasn't the same.

 

A human would be focused on saving their own species. Look at the others. To quote a passage from "The Killing Star": THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won’t choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don’t survive by being self-sacrificing.

 

And so the Council worlds all looked out for their own interests rather than Earth's, and if we hadn't been hit as hard and lost as much of our fleet would have done the same. We were doing the same by trying to get them to abandon their own and commit to helping Earth. We were not choosing them.

[Vortex13]

But Shepard did recruit the Krogan to help take back Earth along with the Turains, Asari, Quarians/Geth, Salarians, Batarians, etc.

 

 

The real question that should be asked is who's bright idea was it to regulate the Rachni (if you saved the Queen) to engineering duty on the Crucible?! 

 

 

The Rachni would have given a huge boost to the ground based warfare during the war do to the fact that they:

 

• Can reproduce combat cable soldiers in a matter of weeks.

 

• Can give the Krogan a run for their money in combat, and without the need for weapons and armor.

 

• Have a highly disciplined fighting force due to the Rachni Hive mind.

 

• Are highly resistant to indoctrination seeing as how the queen is the only real vulnerability, and even then she is more or less immune to the effects of indoctrination; why else would the Reapers have to keep the Queen chained up.

 

Seriously, whoever thought that just having the Rachni work on the Crucible should be brought up on war crimes for how many lives that were lost; lives that could have been saved had Rachni forces supplemented allied ground forces.

[Reorte]

The best way to help Earth is to do whatever is required to beat the Reapers.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Palaven and Thessia are both worth thousands time more than Earth in the war effort. Since Earth isn't worth anything. 

But I'm someone who hates the fact that Hackett/any human is apparently Supreme Commander of the allied war effort. I even seriously doubt humanity being given a council seat. It's just poor writing if you ask me. 

It's not that the Alliance fleets should have gone out of their way to help the other planets, but someone who is coordinating all the races should be willing to  cut their loses. 


 

[SporkFu]

Palaven and Thessia are both worth thousands time more than Earth in the war effort. Since Earth isn't worth anything. 

But I'm someone who hates the fact that Hackett/any human is apparently Supreme Commander of the allied war effort. I even seriously doubt humanity being given a council seat. It's just poor writing if you ask me. 

It's not that the Alliance fleets should have gone out of their way to help the other planets, but someone who is coordinating all the races should be willing to  cut their loses. 

 

Wasn't it the Alliance fleets who stopped Sovereign from taking the citadel and saved everyone? okay, maybe not everyone depending on your play style. 

 

But what's left of the Alliance took charge of building the crucible while everyone else buried their heads in the sand again. 

 

My point is, who else is stepping up to lead the war effort? 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

 

 

Wasn't it the Alliance fleets who stopped Sovereign from taking the citadel and saved everyone? okay, maybe not everyone depending on your play style. 

 

But what's left of the Alliance took charge of building the crucible while everyone else buried their heads in the sand again. 

 

My point is, who else is stepping up to lead the war effort? 

 

The Alliance was only free to step up because they had nothing left to do. Earth fell in a matter of hours. Kinda pathetic, actually. 

How did anyone bury their heads in the sand?

[SporkFu]

How did anyone bury their heads in the sand?

Maybe by denying the reaper threat for three years, even after only one almost killed them all.

By refusing to do anything about the collectors, even after a collector-reaper connection could be proven... if anyone bothered to listen. 

By refusing to give aid when Earth was attacked... and palaven... and the batarians. Nobody united. It was everyone for themselves. 

 

Meh, I dunno. Depends on how you look at it, I guess. 

[KaiserShep]

Palaven and Thessia are both worth thousands time more than Earth in the war effort. Since Earth isn't worth anything.

 

What determines worth, and to whom are they supposed to be the most valuable? If the Council races instead decided to never listen to Shepard, and hunkered down for the duration of the war and simply defend their puny planets, the reapers may take longer to wipe them out, but they'd wipe them out just the same. The only worth their worlds would have then would be the opportunities they'd provide the upcoming species of the next cycle to colonize, nothing more.

 

 But I'm someone who hates the fact that Hackett/any human is apparently Supreme Commander of the allied war effort. I even seriously doubt humanity being given a council seat. It's just poor writing if you ask me.

 

Why wouldn't the humans be offered a seat on the Council? After all, it was the humans that stood between the Council and certain death, and the human fleet that stopped, or at least delayed, what would have been death for all of galactic civilization.

 

 

It's not that the Alliance fleets should have gone out of their way to help the other planets, but someone who is coordinating all the races should be willing to  cut their loses.

 

In a sense, they kind of did cut their losses. They weren't sending anything to earth, and were simply hoping that the resistance that remained could hold out long enough for them to complete the weapon. They retreated through the relay, and put their effort toward building the Crucible. While their plan was to try to save earth, their plan was to basically try to destroy the reapers everywhere. Had that lousy Illusive Man not thrown so many monkey wrenches into the gears, there would have been no final assault over Earth, because they would have simply joined the Crucible with the Citadel and fired away.

[caradoc2000]

Turians called dibs on the Krogan.

[KaiserShep]

Turians called dibs on the Krogan.

Victus: I call the krogan for my team.

 

Shepard: No fair I wanted them.

 

Victus: Dibs.

 

Shepard: But I...

 

Victus: DIBS.

 

[Shepard pouts]

 

Garrus: 'Fraid he called it.

[Han Shot First]

Maybe the Alliance didn't have enough ships to transport them to Earth. The Krogan have no fleet, so other races have to do the heavy lifting of getting them from point A to point B and doing the logistical heavy lifting of keeping that Krogan army fed and supplied. The Turians have the galaxy's largest fleet and can call on Volus support. They've also been Council members for far longer than the Alliance, and probably have deeper relationships with some of the other factions like the Asari Republics, Salarian Union, Elcor, Hanar, ect, ect.

[CynicalShep]

I don't know. For all their supposed wisdom, might and experience the council races didn't do jack sh*t until Shepard didn't pull out a rod with a carrot on. I understand that the game wants to give you a power trip (humanity is the bestest of all tiems!!1) but the game pretty much revolves around us. How is Thessia or Palaven more important at all, never mind "thousand of times"?