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How do you feel about the SJW movement of videogames?


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#251
Allan Schumacher

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Her videos would still be as polarizing (I would say biased) as they've always been. So I think she'd still get plenty of exposure because of that.  

 

How much, if any, people were even interested in taking notice until the event happened?  (note, at least me and a few other coworkers.  I actually consider it a pretty strong catalyst to a lot of the exposure lately, speaking as someone on the inside of game development and speaking as a group that don't agree with many aspects Anita shares in her videos).



#252
SlottsMachine

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How much, if any, people were even interested in taking notice until the event happened?  (note, at least me and a few other coworkers.  I actually consider it a pretty strong catalyst to a lot of the exposure lately, speaking as someone on the inside of game development and speaking as a group that don't agree with many aspects Anita shares in her videos).

 

I guess I'm not in a position to say really. I didn't know who she was until people started complaining about her on this forum. But then again I'm definitely not her target audience. Its a good cause sure, but I don't agree with how she goes about it (from what I've seen of her videos.)  



#253
Allan Schumacher

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There are aspects of her videos that I think are good points.  There are aspects of it that I think misunderstand some context and have challenging resolutions if fixed purely at their face value.

 

I'm replaying Fallout: New Vegas.  Anita does call out that while FONV allows for men (and even ghouls) to be prostitutes and placed on display as well as women.  Though she still points out that the game can encourage violence towards women.  I don't really agree (I think the game does a pretty bang up job with the random NPC generation for gender diversity), but if you're allowing the game player freedom to decide to attack any character, the resolution to preventing violence against women is to omit women from the setting.  Alternatively, the freedom for the player to behave in a particular way is removed.

 

If there's encouragement for violence towards women in FONV, I'm either blind to it (which may be the case) or it's actually a manifestation of beliefs/actions outside the game setting proper.  Caesar's Legion has negative perspectives towards women equality, but they're also pretty clearly "the evil faction" when held up to a lot of our standards.  Maybe it's problematic that the game lets you side with them, specifically, but even then I'm not sure if the faction does much to actually encourage or reward the player for specific actions against women (it's been a long time since I did any of Caesar's quests, however, and I didn't do all of them).



#254
Allan Schumacher

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And fortunately as she gained popularity, more people are beginning to notice her hypocrisy and the hypocrisy of like-minded individuals.

 

I'm curious if there's been some ways that you feel I have been hypocritical.



#255
General TSAR

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I'm curious if there's been some ways that you feel I have been hypocritical.

Nope. 

 

If you thought that was a jab at you that wasn't my intention. 



#256
In Exile

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I'll jump back to address other posts respond to me, but I just wanted to quickly comment on something Allan raised:

 

If there's encouragement for violence towards women in FONV, I'm either blind to it (which may be the case) or it's actually a manifestation of beliefs/actions outside the game setting proper.  Caesar's Legion has negative perspectives towards women equality, but they're also pretty clearly "the evil faction" when held up to a lot of our standards.  Maybe it's problematic that the game lets you side with them, specifically, but even then I'm not sure if the faction does much to actually encourage or reward the player for specific actions against women (it's been a long time since I did any of Caesar's quests, however, and I didn't do all of them).

 

My understanding of her position is that the mere inclusion of Caesar's legion is, essentially, a problem. Her reasoning is a little opaque on this point. At any rate, I think that's mistake in principle because it would mean that video games have to shy away from what is, in the end, IMO a pretty well thought out critique of the problems with what is superficially a kind of power fantasy. It's possible that she saw the superficially positive portrayal of the legion - e.g. brought a kind of order to Arizona, created some safety, appear unstoppable - was an actually positive portrayal of what they stand for (even though, IMO, the game does a good job of showing why Casear's vanity project is doomed to failure and why, on a philosophical level, he's both wrong in principle and hypocritical). 



#257
Allan Schumacher

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Nope. 

 

If you thought that was a jab at you that wasn't my intention. 

 

No, it was actually a literal an invitation for feedback since, by nature of formulating my opinions, I have a bias to not see them as being contradictory (a human trait).

 

It's probably motivated because I consider myself a like-minded individual in many aspects.



#258
slimgrin

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I think this is important, balanced and objective:

 

 

 

Ho! I just saw she tossed in some Witcher and Dragon Age, two franchises which have some of the most intelligent and empowered women in games. Way to do your homework, Anita.



#259
Allan Schumacher

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Provide a genuine thesis please, since I'm pretty sure that you're actually being sarcastic.

 

 

This is a general warning to the thread if your goal is to simply post videos and leave it to me to determine what aspects, specifically, you are referring to.  It's ambiguous and unproductive.



#260
Neoleviathan

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I found that latest video a lot more relatable than her past vids. I was excited finding her relatable actually, I feel kind of alienated by her most of the time. She looks at some good stuff in the new one, and I think it's a good topic. Those parts in Metro made really uncomfortable and depressed when I played them. I do think she misrepresented some of the games, and some of it strikes you as she never bothered playing them... I was happy she back peddled at one point when talking about New Vegas and Dragon Age. I really wish she would do her homework better. I know people who would look at this video, not having played any games themselves, and go on to put down any girl who wanted to play games. If she doesn't play any games, I hope she'll start. I'd feel much more comfortable if I could feel she can actually relate to me. Even if she doesn't I like what her kickstarter sparked, I like reading threads like these and what is being talked about. I look forward to part 2.

#261
Allan Schumacher

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Ho! I just saw she tossed in some Witcher and Dragon Age, two franchises which have some of the most intelligent and empowered women in games. Way to do your homework, Anita.

 

Context, scene, and elaborations?
 

I have reservations about some parts of the video too, but I tried to be clear (the FONV part).

 

Our game may have intelligent and empowered women, but that doesn't mean that we don't have examples that are also subpar as well.  Which scenes were discussed from the Witcher?



#262
addiction21

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Context, scene, and elaborations?
 

I have reservations about some parts of the video too, but I tried to be clear (the FONV part).

 

Our game may have intelligent and empowered women, but that doesn't mean that we don't have examples that are also subpar as well.  Which scenes were discussed from the Witcher?

 

As for what you said about New Vegas I don't think you are blind to anything. Those games make it clear you can be as violent as you want to any group at any time you feel the need to be. Its not singling out any specific group.

 

And because I like to plug him http://www.escapistm...pes-vs-MovieBob



#263
ObserverStatus

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Ho! I just saw she tossed in some Witcher and Dragon Age, two franchises which have some of the most intelligent and empowered women in games. Way to do your homework, Anita.

Did they? I only played The Witcher 1 for 10 hours, but that was hardly the impression I got from it.



#264
ruggly

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Did they? I only played The Witcher 1 for 10 hours, but that was hardly the impression I got from it.

 

You did better than me, I only got 90 minutes because I can't stand the God awful combat.



#265
Maliken

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I didn't play much of TW1 either, but I think they did a reasonably good job with a shoestring budget and an outdated engine.



#266
SwobyJ

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Y'all a bunch of Renegades!



#267
Allan Schumacher

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When I say don't just fire and forget videos, I'm meaning it.  That's uninteresting (and completely against what I said to do a few posts earlier).

 

Lets share our own perspectives instead of someone else's.  If you're relying on what other people have to say, you're not demonstrating any critical analysis of your own and when I get accused of not debating honestly, it's frustrating to see a whole bunch of passive attempts of piggybacking on what other people have to say.

 

 

Make reference to the Anita video if you must (by pointing out times), but talk about what you feel are problems.  I've already shared some of mine.  I've even opened myself up for personal critique.  Feel free to talk about that too.



#268
Mr.House

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I didn't play much of TW1 either, but I think they did a reasonably good job with a shoestring budget and an outdated engine.

Shoestring budget and outdated engine is no excuse for the sex cards and the GOTTA COLLECT THEM ALL feel.



#269
General TSAR

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Make reference to the Anita video if you must (by pointing out times), but talk about what you feel are problems. 

You got it bossman.

 

Here's my problem with Sarkeesian. She believes there is an industry driven initiative to reduce women as objects and background characters so the largely male market can enjoy their male driven power fantasies of oppressing women and that fantasy of oppressing women eventually gets acted out in the real world through sexual assault, the same argument that violence in video games encourages violence in real life. 

 

She criticizes Mario as a prime example of this sexism because he spends the vast majority of the time saving Princess Peach from Bowser, a kind of patriarchy battle with Peach as the prrrriiiizzzzeee. While criticizing the "overall sexist nature of the game industry" she conveniently forgets that:

1. Nintendo is from Japan, a different culture with their own views of the place of women.

2. Miyamoto doesn't care about plot only gameplay and so used one of the oldest story trope as a MacGuffin to get the game going.

 

These rebuttal videos will clarify my point. 

 

 

 

This video in particular has her criticizing racy and mature games for having scantly clad women with constant titillating looping animations(which is more common and not only limited to women). She believes these games reduce women to "prostituted women"(which has earned her backlash from sex workers) who only serve only to empower the male gamer and to let him abuse them (despite the fact that these women Sarkeesian cite are in-game prostitutes and serve as mini games). This rebuttal video will clarify my point even more. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlnr_B269VM

 

There is of course sexism in the game industry and gamer culture, but certainly it is not a purposeful industry driven initiative well minus the company that developed the dead or alive games.

 

 

Shoestring budget and outdated engine is no excuse for the sex cards and the GOTTA COLLECT THEM ALL feel.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the "GOTTA COLLECT THEM ALL feel" also extended to BioWare games to some extent? Regardless, didn't the books have Geralt as a horn dog?

 

 BTW I think the option to bang the chicks is optional.

 

Well minus the introduction to Witcher II.



#270
Fast Jimmy

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Shoestring budget and outdated engine is no excuse for the sex cards and the GOTTA COLLECT THEM ALL feel.


Is this drastically different than achievements for the various romances?

#271
In Exile

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Is this drastically different than achievements for the various romances?

 

Yes, it is. There are two differences: (i) in how the encounter is actually triggered and (ii) in what the sex card actually portrays. There's also the volume of interactions with that character and the extent to which their role as a collectible sex card is their sole contribution to the game. 



#272
Dominus

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Is this drastically different than achievements for the various romances?

Mechanically, not quite. The last achievement I got was loooong ago for "Paramour" in Mass Effect 1 - I don't recall it being Squadmate specific. Mass Effect 3 doesn't seem to have any, though Dragon Age 2 has one for flirting and one for completing a romance. To me, the major difference is cosmetic, And you probably know what I mean if you've gotten the cards. I'm guessing CDRProjekt heard that loud and clear, removing it in the second and trying a more tasteful direction for encounters of the salicious kind.

As far as the subject itself, as LPPrince said earlier, the more the merrier. I'm all for equal rights and appropriate portrayal. Variety is the spice of life, and I've always fancied a good old 5-Alarm Chili.

#273
Mr.House

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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the "GOTTA COLLECT THEM ALL feel" also extended to BioWare games to some extent? Regardless, didn't the books have Geralt as a horn dog?

 

 BTW I think the option to bang the chicks is optional.

 

Well minus the introduction to Witcher II.

There's a difference between being a horn dog and helping someone get home from bandits and then having her proposes having sex in a fucken mill and every other sex card in the game that is not Triss and Shani. Some characters simply exist TO be a sex card. TW2 did not have this nonsense for reasons, it was because the sex cards where immature and childish, it's crap a horny 12 year old would create.

 

TW2 showed Gerelts lust in woman much better without resorting to childish mechanics.


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#274
In Exile

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Well guess what pal, I don't use death threats or rape jokes in my subjective trolling. I, however, acknowledge that others will use death threats and rape jokes as trolling.

 

That's not trolling. That's, again, (i) a literal criminal offence (depending on the country); (ii) blatant and obvious sexism; and (iii) a general embarrassment to humanity. 

 

Dictionaries say a lot of things, but it's irrelevant to how the word is used by the SJWs at this point. When a society thinks racism/sexism/homophobia is wrong, when it is illegal to discriminate against somebody based on such factors, there is no need for special attention to be paid to "inclusiveness".

 

I'm going to zero-in on the bold portion of this post. Your subsequent message makes it quite clear you support discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation (and, alternatively, gender), in respect of same-sex marriage. So, even by your own logic, there would be a need to pay attention to inclusiveness, since we aren't at this mystical point of pure equality. 

 

As this thread points out, there is absolutely no consensus on what constitutes sexist behaviour - see e.g. the bizarre and unbelievable defenses of honest-to-god rape threats as "trolling".  But by all means, feel free to ignore how words are literally defined and used. 

 

That's an amusing definition of victory that wouldn't win many battles for sure. It's not in line with my views of what constitutes marriage but I've never bothered protesting or writing some politican about it. So do please go on and tell me what a terrible person I am. Do inform me how I am now trying to block a "fundamental right" that isn't listed in the Bill of Rights, Constitution, or anywhere else. No person is denied the right to marriage anyway, but no sole citizen has the right to determine what the legal defintion of marriage is. So should I feel ashamed for supporting the exercise of democratic principles in believing that individual states should decide that for themselves by voting? (Isn't that outrageous concept what the SJWs wanted to crucify Orson Scott Card for a year ago?)

 

But I suppose I am just not an enlightened part of some "self-respecting circle". Which way to reeducation comrade? Because why bother trying to convince anybody that something is a good idea when you can just shame them instead?

 

I can't comment specifically on American Constitutional principles, because I'm not an American lawyer. That being said, there are a number of decisions available in the United States that specifically outline why it is that, for example, a state ban on same-sex marriage would be unconstitutional. The basic answer (you can read about the legal history of the case here: http://en.wikipedia....rauss_v._Horton) is that bans akin to California's Proposition 8 are a ban of the so-called "Equal Protection" clause of the US Constitution (which as I understand is the 14th Amendment to your Constitution). You can find a further discussion of how the "Equal Protection" clause applies to sexual orientation when it comes to its own wikipedia page (the link is available here: http://en.wikipedia....l_orientation).

 

Edit: There was just another influential appellate ruling that held that a Utah law outlawing same-sex marriage was held to be unconstitutional (see here:http://www.sltrib.co...ls-sex.html.csp), continuing the pattern by US courts in finding that, indeed, same-sex marriage is as much a fundamental right as anything deriving from the 14th Amendment. 

 

I'll avoid the more inflammatory aspect of your post. 

 

It is a funny thing to defend bigoted rhetoric by saying that you are trolling. The way I see it, there is a universal human right to free speech, which unfortunately includes the right to offend people for whatever reason you want, whether that be the belief that you are fighting to save someone's soul by offending them, offending someone just to amuse yourself, or just because you don't like the person you are trying to offend. Sure, our right to offend may hurt certain groups of people disproportionately and being a straight white male makes it easy for me to defend hate speech. However, I still believe our Right to Offend to be a necessary evil, because without it, governments could too easily ban legitimate criticism, by using some contrived excuse to call it hate speech.

 

Now with that said, I also believe that victims of hate speech have the right to strike back; to use their own freedom of speech to publicly shame bigots and call them out on their BS, and this is where the "I was just get trolling" defense gets absurd. Sure, if you want to say outrageous things in order to offend people for your own amusement, then you have the right to, but the fact that you only did it to amuse yourself does not make what you said less outrageous. If you say bigoted things, then you could argue that you are not actually a bigot yourself because you not actually believe the things you said, but it could also be argued that if you respected the feelings of the groups you smeared, you would find better ways to amuse yourself.

 

My point is, if you've decided to troll, you should be prepared to have people assume that you meant every word you said, and never assume that your motivation for offending people should make you immune to criticism. I've never really understood whether self-identified trolls actually feel like SJWs treat them unfairly, or if they just say so in order to troll people like me who admire legitimately funny trolls.

 

Free speech is not an unlimited right. It depends on the country, of course, but the traditional example is the idea that one is not free to yell "Fire!" in a crowded workplace when it endangers the life of others. You use the parallel of hate speech, but rape and death threats are not akin to hate speech at all. They are akin to harassment, and direct threats to the liberty of others. The analogy here is the old "the right to swing your fist ends at my face" line. 

 

No one would argue - at least no one who is against what amounts to a dictatorship - that the state should censor offensive speech. If someone wants to have a pro-KKK speech, then we allow that. But we do not allow a member of the KKK to send death or rape threats to, because that is an entirely different kind of crime. 

 

Otherwise, I think that the appropriate solution is for any private forum or corporation to simply release the real name of any person that engages in actual bigoted speech, with their offending line attached (so that the public can judge). If GreyWardenForever99 wants to say horribly sexist things, then the world should find out that 28 year old John Smith is a sexist. 


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#275
General TSAR

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TW2 showed Gerelts lust in woman much better without resorting to childish mechanics.

Can't argue with that. 


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