363 réponses à ce sujet

[WildOrchid]

Happen with Sera on tumblr(a SJW haven). Bunch of people got mad that she was white and insist she was dark skinned int he concept art(which if you looked, you would tell it's the lighting that makes her dark) so they called Bioware a racist and one person outright recloured Sera and they don't see how this is the same as the white Isabela mod. Crap like that IS a issue and is an example of a SJW.

 

I read few post about that matter and made me roll my eyes. I lurk on tumblr often and god, some* of the SJWs can be very obnoxious and ridiculous.

 

 

*i've seen few SJW blogs that are reasonable and not ridiculous though.

[In Exile]

There's nothing wrong with looking in your own back yard instead of someone else's, but just realize people will laugh at you and not take you seriously when you are complaining about a puddle when other neighbors are experiencing a flood.

I'm all for that. It's just a consequence of people's actions. But there's a big gulf between someone wasting their time (like Anita S. did initially with a kick starter aimed at showing games are often sexist, as if that wasn't well known) and addressing a serious problem in gaming (like the fact that hundreds of gamers responded to her with actual rape threats, which is a serious problem).

As gamers, saying "I want more characters like me" shouldn't be seen as that big of a deal.

[In Exile]

The extra races were not borne of complaints. The complaints of no race selection were occuring, LOUDLY, before DA2 even came out. DA:I was still planned and imagined as a human only game, even with the highest critiques of the human only DA2. Only the expansion of the project's budget and time table were additional races and VO's added. Almost three years of Bioware saying "we're doing human only" wasn't changed by the compIaints. It was changed by someone making the case "if you give us more money, we can increase sales by X by doing Y." That Y just happened to be something people had been very vocal about. If people were being very vocal and Bioware still could not see sales increasing because of it, then it wouldn't have been implemented.
Assassin's Creed: Liberation was a PS Vita exclusive starting out, but was released on PC, PS3 and 360 through Steam, the PSN store and XBL, respectively. When released on the main systems, it had an HD graphics upgrade and significant amounts of new content and only came with a $20 price tag.

Wasn't aware about Liberation. Fair point if it was a flop, but like DG points out attributing it to the female PC might not be the right move.

About DAI, we're going to have to disagree. I think that the year delay was a direct response to the very lukewarm and still hate-filled reception DAI received as its features were being leaked and revealed. I think the conversation was as simple as the buzz around the game is horrible, and we need to do something to change that. The outcome was the year delay to create positive but via closer parallels to DA:O.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm all for that. It's just a consequence of people's actions. But there's a big gulf between someone wasting their time (like Anita S. did initially with a kick starter aimed at showing games are often sexist, as if that wasn't well known) and addressing a serious problem in gaming (like the fact that hundreds of gamers responded to her with actual rape threats, which is a serious problem).
As gamers, saying "I want more characters like me" shouldn't be seen as that big of a deal.

No, but saying "if developers don't have more characters like me, then they are racist/mysoginistic/homophobic/etc." is a big deal.

It's an interesting dynamic you can see even in this thread - the tone of even the same posters ranges from "what's the harm in asking for a simple request" and "there should be violent social change to bring about to request because there is an existing culture of bigotry." Those aren't analogous statements. One is a sane, rational request. The other is tantamount to inciting panic or laughter, depending on the circumstances.

[The Love Runner]

Politics...

It didn't stop me from enjoying games before, and it won't stop me from enjoying games now.

[UltimaBACON]

Wasn't aware about Liberation. Fair point if it was a flop, but like DG points out attributing it to the female PC might not be the right move.

 

It was marketed horribly even when it was brought to the main consoles. Unless you kept up with the whole drive to bring Liberation to the consoles, which started as a petition thread on Ubisoft's forums, your chances of knowing about it were rather slim.

[Fast Jimmy]

Wasn't aware about Liberation. Fair point if it was a flop, but like DG points out attributing it to the female PC might not be the right move.

But see, I wasn't. I wasn't blaming the game flopping based on the fact that it had a female lead. I was using it as an example of a failure to be positive.

The game was, gameplay wise, nearly identical to other AC games. There is little reason to praise AC2 and have much of anything negative to say about Liberation. Yet people who say they want more females in games did not only not purchase the game, but they also did not talk about it, promote it, spread buzz about it. Yet when Ubisoft created an all-male set of avatars for a MP component, it gets its own Twitter account and Tumblr melts down.

The problem with SJW is just that - they are Social Justice WARRIORS. Not Social Justice NURTURERS. People are far too quick to take offense and attack rather than realize the most important thing to do is look for the positive work done in any field and actively encourage and reward it. But that requires more effort than knee jerk reactions and terse comments on an Internet board.

About DAI, we're going to have to disagree. I think that the year delay was a direct response to the very lukewarm and still hate-filled reception DAI received as its features were being leaked and revealed. I think the conversation was as simple as the buzz around the game is horrible, and we need to do something to change that. The outcome was the year delay to create positive but via closer parallels to DA:O.

I agree that we'll have to disagree. I feel it had much more to do with the conversion to Frostbite, which set the team back significantly (I mean, think about it - they didn't even have a Conversation Editor back in February of 2013, yet they wanted to release by Fall?). Knowing the risk of releasing a game too early, they gave the team another year to make sure the first Bioware game on Frostbite would be a truly polished piece if work. And, since not all resources are devoted to engine work for a full year, that have hem the ability to have animators, writers, VA's, etc. to implement the very high cost (but very high return) feature of multiple races.

Without the conversion to Frostbite, I don't see that happening.

[felipejiraya]

Since all this SJW movement is a recent thing we as a society don't have a consensus about it so gives room for some very extremist views about the whole thing.

 

Specifically in the game industry when game developers try to appease to SJW just for the sake of it normally the results are disastrous and the game feels inorganic.

 

For all the hate The Witcher gets for being mysoginistic in the reality the most powerful and influential characters in the games/books are women and because it wasn't shoehorned just to appease the SJW the games works very well.

[Fast Jimmy]

It was marketed horribly even when it was brought to the main consoles. Unless you kept up with the whole drive to bring Liberation to the consoles, which started as a petition thread on Ubisoft's forums, your chances of knowing about it were rather slim.

I'd echo this. The move to consoles this January was done with little fanfare. But, again, you'd think a SJW group would be watching for such things like a hawk, at the ready to start a Reddit group to promote it or something. Instead... nothing. Until we find out there are four white bro bots for the next game's MP mode, of course.

[In Exile]

No, but saying "if developers don't have more characters like me, then they are racist/mysoginistic/homophobic/etc." is a big deal.

It's an interesting dynamic you can see even in this thread - the tone of even the same posters ranges from "what's the harm in asking for a simple request" and "there should be violent social change to bring about to request because there is an existing culture of bigotry." Those aren't analogous statements. One is a sane, rational request. The other is tantamount to inciting panic or laughter, depending on the circumstances.

 

Well, regarding the bold, sometimes it's hard to deny that some of the choices that developers make are pretty misogynistic or homophobic, at least based on the actual justifications that they offer (never racist, at least as far as I've been able to follow). The problem, as far as I see it, is when you get these accusations for unwarranted things (like the Sera example). 

 

But let's put the strawmen aside. No one said anything about any kind of violent social change, besides myself, when making the much broader point that so-called "rational dialogue" is not what actually achieved anything in terms of IRL civil rights, so expecting civil internet dialogue versus basically much more inflammatory dialogue to do the same seems to be missing what worked. When the former doesn't work, it's not hard to see why people do the latter. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, regarding the bold, sometimes it's hard to deny that some of the choices that developers make are pretty misogynistic or homophobic, at least based on the actual justifications that they offer (never racist, at least as far as I've been able to follow). The problem, as far as I see it, is when you get these accusations for unwarranted things (like the Sera example). 

But the problem isn't the examples we can find, but the method which they catch like wildfire. It's sensationalism at its worse and the tactics are the same whether it is the baseless attacks about Sera, the slightly more substantial debunking of women's animations for AC or the completely spot on criticisms of most FPS shooter franchises using straight white males. It's all grabbed upon with a religious zeal and ran with, regardless of facts.
 

But let's put the strawmen aside. No one said anything about any kind of violent social change, besides myself, when making the much broader point that so-called "rational dialogue" is not what actually achieved anything in terms of IRL civil rights, so expecting civil internet dialogue versus basically much more inflammatory dialogue to do the same seems to be missing what worked. When the former doesn't work, it's not hard to see why people do the latter.

Oh, all you Social Justice Warriors sound alike to me.




If the multiple levels of irony in that statement don't cause you to crack a grin (let alone recognize it as irony), then I'm afraid we can't be pen pals this summer.

[WildOrchid]

Yet people who say they want more females in games did not only not purchase the game, but they also did not talk about it, promote it, spread buzz about it. Yet when Ubisoft created an all-male set of avatars for a MP component, it gets its own Twitter account and Tumblr melts down.

 

Tumblr was on fire when Liberation got announced for ps3/pc though. Almost everyone there was so excited and kept telling other ppl to get the game. Though how do you know they didn't promote it already? I'm sure many did thanks to excitement but still it wouldn't be enough.

It's clearly Ubisoft's fault for not marketing the game enough, as someone here said, it was indeed marketed horribly.

 

If it wasn't for tumblr i wouldn't have had any idea that they released Liberation on HD.

[ObserverStatus]

It all depends on your definition of a social justice warrior. There are some aspects of the "social justice movement" that I agree with and some that I don't, but the only people labeled as SJWs who I really have a problem with are the ones who refuse to distinguish between depictions of problematic material and promotion of problematic material, such as the promoters of #CancelColbert

[UltimaBACON]

Well, yeah, I think anyone can agree Suey Park is an attention ******.

[SlottsMachine]

It all depends on your definition of a social justice warrior. There are some aspects of the "social justice movement" that I agree with and some that I don't, but the only people labeled as SJWs who I really have a problem with are the ones who refuse to distinguish between depictions of problematic material and promotion of problematic material, such as the promoters of #CancelColbert

 

LOL. News to me. So am I correct in assuming that all those people are prejudiced towards native people because they don't seem to have a problem with that part of the joke. 

[ObserverStatus]

Well, yeah, I think anyone can agree Suey Park is an attention ******.

Regardless, I believe that she is part of a larger problem. It seems like gamers are too quick to assume "If a game contains, X then the developers support X. X is evil, and the game contains X. Therefore, the developers are oppressive."

[ruggly]

Depends on how they go about it.

[SlottsMachine]

As long as they are willing to put there money where there mouth is than I don't have a problem with them as pertaining to videogames. If all the people that gave money to Anita Sarkeesian had just bought 2 or 3 copies of Remember Me or something there cause would probably be a lot further ahead. I want better female representation in games, hence why I buy games that are trying to achieve that goal. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

As long as they are willing to put there money where there mouth is than I don't have a problem with them as pertaining to videogames. If all the people that gave money to Anita Sarkeesian had just bought 2 or 3 copies of Remember Me or something there cause would probably be a lot further ahead. I want better female representation in games, hence why I buy games that are trying to achieve that goal. 

If they stopped listening to snake oil saleswomen Anita Sarkeesian to begin with and tried doing their own research into the matter, I think half the games out there would have strong and well written female characters at this point.

[In Exile]

But the problem isn't the examples we can find, but the method which they catch like wildfire. It's sensationalism at its worse and the tactics are the same whether it is the baseless attacks about Sera, the slightly more substantial debunking of women's animations for AC or the completely spot on criticisms of most FPS shooter franchises using straight white males. It's all grabbed upon with a religious zeal and ran with, regardless of facts.

 

It's always going to be the sensationalism that catches on - either because people will go "look at the loonies", or because it's the loonies who have the energy and zeal required to actually get their POV out there. 

 

A "why not have the femquisitor featured in marketing at E3" thread isn't going to catch fire as an internet phenomenon, but a freakout over some multiplayer skins will, because we're all going "wtf" to it. 

 

Inversely, people saying "Anita S. isn't doing anything original, and so her kickstarter really seems to be taking advantage of people" is drowned out by the loons who start sending her death/rape threats. Similarly, the idea that video game writers should also play video games (to have ideas about how to integrate story/gameplay) gets drowned out because of, well... the sheer unbridled lunacy we saw with Jen Helper. 

 

Oh, all you Social Justice Warriors sound alike to me.

 

I think you won the thread. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Tumblr was on fire when Liberation got announced for ps3/pc though. Almost everyone there was so excited and kept telling other ppl to get the game. Though how do you know they didn't promote it already? I'm sure many did thanks to excitement but still it wouldn't be enough.

It's clearly Ubisoft's fault for not marketing the game enough, as someone here said, it was indeed marketed horribly.

 

If it wasn't for tumblr i wouldn't have had any idea that they released Liberation on HD.

 

Then maybe Tumblr is a poor venue for drumming up word of mouth sales (while an excellent venue for starting social media wildfires). I'm not sure. 

 

If I was in the video game industry, I would spend COPIOUS amounts of research on DA:O's release. It's lackluster, plain-Jane marketing campaign (FMV trailer of combat, Marilyn Manson music videos and LOLWhateverTheHellThisWasSupposedToSell) were all pedestrian at best, juvenile at worst. And ultimately fairly ineffective. 

 

 

But as we can see here, DA:O sales wound up being somewhat similar to DA2 in the first three weeks, but then, for reasons unknown to me other than "word of mouth," DA:O saw a spike in sales in Week 8 that surpassed that of Week 2. Clearly, the initial reception of the game was good, but what would drive sales that large two months after release? What happened? Who talked about the game in massive numbers? What were their means of doing so? Why were they effective? 

 

If you really want to advocate social justice in video games (or really ANYTHING in ANY market, ever) it is immensely helpful to understand what the most effective way to talk to people that will result in them taking (positive) action. Maybe Tumblr and Reddit did blow up for a female protag in Liberation and it resulted in very few sales, but complaints get picked up like wildfire and result in press releases within the hour. And maybe winning video game awards (or whatever the heck happened in late February 2009) spurs more sales for games. If that's the case, then it would be wise for people to put laser precision on getting games they find to best represent the best trends and behaviors in gaming and push for them to win game awards (or, again, whatever the heck happened for DA:O). This way, it results in more sales and isn't solely dependent on a shoddy marketing campaign.

 

 

But now I'm totally off topic and rambling.

[CronoDragoon]

I tend to think people use "SJW" to deride a method of promoting one's goals, not the goals themselves. Anita I think is a good example, because I don't think many people have an issue with increasing awareness of the manner in which women are depicted. The issue is her videos suck. The issue is she has demonstrated on several occasions an unwillingness to do proper research in order to accurately formulate her points. Then, if anyone says, "What you are saying about this character in this game is not true," the insults start flying from certain groups of people that believe the proper response is to completely shut off the conversation by throwing around "sexist" or "bigot" or whatever. And that also happens when some idiots call anyone discussing gender and race topics in videogames "SJW."

[spirosz]

I would prefer to keep politics out of my video games. 

 

Good luck with that.

[Jorji Costava]

But that is counter to what I said in my original post - I said not to just say nice things so the developer hears, but to promote he product - to your friends, to your peers and to the general public. If you like how a game does something, scream it from the rooftops. That's word of mouth sales and it is one of the most powerful forms of advertisement you can do for a game.

 

I'm not really sure how this addresses anything I said. Your original point concerned the idea of "voting with your wallet, not with your Tumblr account": In other words, you seem to be suggesting that there is something bad or objectionable about criticizing games for lacking representation of diverse ethnic groups, or for including stereotyped depictions of them. What I tried to argue is that quite the opposite is the case: There can often be something very valuable about mounting such critique, even if it doesn't directly prompt developers to make immediate changes.

 

Now the point is about how you should do everything you can to support the games that do represent such groups in more meaningful ways. But nobody disagrees with that; it's not as if SJW's are saying, "Let's not support the stuff that represents us well." And again, it's not as if you can't simultaneously support games you like by word of mouth and also criticize stuff you don't like in the same way. I don't see any reason to think that SJW's are only capable of doing one thing at a time.

 

I would prefer to keep politics out of my video games. 

 

Just going to completely regurgitate something I said upthread: In general I think it's pretty hard to avoid politics no matter what game, book or movie you're talking about. When things seem apolitical, it's generally because they're consistent with the status quo. If you lived in North Korea and made a video game about how Kim Jong Un is the greatest leader and the greatest human being alive, you'd probably think it's apolitical, whereas a game which raised questions about his greatness would appear to have an "agenda."