140 réponses à ce sujet

[Arakat]

It's not just about being nice or rude, though. Even the nice Dalish seem to see the city elves as "lesser elves" who need to be "shown the way", and my Tabris took real offense at that. Just because the Alienage culture is different doesn't mean they're not real elves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If that's true you can't claim Dalish are any more hostile or xenophobic than anyone else in the world.

Sure I can. They believe being separated from humans will restore their immortality. That is clear xenophobia. 

[HK-90210]

I fail to see how being Dalish means you can't identify as an Andrastian. In the same way a person who is of Jewish ethnicity who identifies as Christian. The two can co-exist. One is a cultural group, the other religious. Is it common? No. Do they mesh well together? Not always.

 

Also, can a Qunari Inquisitor be an Andrastian? Since they were born and raised outside the Qun, I would say so.

[wright1978]

I fail to see how being Dalish means you can't identify as an Andrastian. In the same way a person who is of Jewish ethnicity who identifies as Christian. The two can co-exist. One is a cultural group, the other religious. Is it common? No. Do they mesh well together? Not always.
 
Also, can a Qunari Inquisitor be an Andrastian? Since they were born and raised outside the Qun, I would say so.

Because the game evidence seen of dalish suggest they would be intolerant of such individuals within their ranks IMO.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Because the game evidence seen of dalish suggest they would be intolerant of such individuals within their ranks IMO.

That's on the clan, not the individual. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Sure I can. They believe being separated from humans will restore their immortality. That is clear xenophobia. 

 

Actually you don't know this. You are assuming that's the reason. I don't believe there's been any Dalish NPC that expresses this specific hope. They are separated from humanity because humans are hostile and chase them away if they stay near human settlements too long. Their way of life is also forbidden by most human nations' laws.

[wright1978]

That's on the clan, not the individual.

We'll I assume the background will involve being a member of a clan which open andrastian ism would preclude.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I wouldn't see a problem being an Andrastian Dalish elf, i mean the Dalish inquisitor will likely be seen as a traitor anyway for being part of the human dominated Inquisition so believing in the Maker probably wouldn't p*ss off other clans much worse then usual.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Actually you don't know this. You are assuming that's the reason. They are separated from humanity because humans are hostile and chase them away if they stay too long.

 

Codex text

Before the ages were named or numbered, our people were glorious and eternal and never-changing. Like the great oak tree, they were constant in their traditions, strong in their roots, and ever reaching for the sky.

 

They felt no need to rush when life was endless. They worshiped their gods for months at a time. Decisions came after decades of debate, and an introduction could last for years. From time to time, our ancestors would drift into centuries-long slumber, but this was not death, for we know they wandered the Fade in dreams.

 

In those ages, our people called all the land Elvhenan, which in the old language means "place of our people." And at the center of the world stood the great city of Arlathan, a place of knowledge and debate, where the best of the ancient elves would go to trade knowledge, greet old friends, and settle disputes that had gone on for millennia.

 

But while our ancestors were caught up in the forever cycle of ages, drifting through life at what we today would consider an intolerable pace, the world outside the lush forests and ancient trees was changing.

 

The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north. Called shemlen, or "quicklings," by the ancients, the humans were pitiful creatures whose lives blinked by in an instant. When they first met the elves, the humans were brash and warlike, quick to anger and quicker to fight, with no patience for the unhurried pace of elven diplomacy.

 

But the humans brought worse things than war with them. Our ancestors proved susceptible to human diseases, and for the first time in history, elves died of natural causes. What's more, those elves who spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, tainted by the humans' brash and impatient lives. Many believed that the ancient gods had judged them unworthy of their long lives and cast them down among the quicklings. Our ancestors came to look upon the humans as parasites, which I understand is similar to the way the humans see our people in the cities. The ancient elves immediately moved to close Elvhenan off from the humans, for fear that this quickening effect would crumble the civilization.

 

--"The Fall of Arlathan," as told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish elves

 

So no, the Dalish believe that humans were the cause of the loss of their immortality. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes I know the Dalish belief is that humans cause the Ancient Elves to lose their immortality. What no elf character has ever explicitly indicated however, is that it's even possible to undo the Quickening, much less do so by isolating themselves from humanity. So far only certain players have expressed a desire for that.

[Finnn62]

I made my Noble Dwarf Warden Andrastian. Why not Dalish elves, too? People can choose what they want to believe, if they want to. Hopefully, that's still possible in this game, as well

[Iakus]

Pretty much this,being Dalish after is about believing in the old gods and preserve what remains from the old elvish culture through their everyday lives and beliefs.

 

Yup, I mean, look at the oath of the Dalish:

 

"We are the Dalish, the keepers of the lost lore, walkers of the lonely path.  We are the last of the elvhen.  Never again shall we submit"

 

Worshipping a god of the humans is a rejection of the elven ways.  It's submitting to the humans.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes I know the Dalish belief is that humans cause the Ancient Elves to lose their immortality. What no elf character has ever explicitly indicated however, is that it's even possible to undo the Quickening, much less do so by isolating themselves from humanity.

Lanaya talks about it when the Warden asks if they can get their lifespan back. Her response is "In time, and with seclusion." 

[Gervaise]

But city elves who join them do actually retain their beliefs.   In DA2 when we initially find Pol he says "Thank the Maker" and then corrects himself to "I mean Creators", but it is clear he is only doing that because he thinks he should and Merrill is standing there.   So you see you can believe something in your heart, even if you have to maintain a façade in order to fit in.   

 

The point is, though, that it doesn't go against being a Dalish to revere Andraste and want to follow her teachings because that is not the same as following the Chantry.     Shartan was comfortable with it and since he was willing to die for her, it would seem that Andraste was happy to accommodate whatever he believed.   She even gave him an ancient sword that had a chance of giving you the power over your opponent's mind when you struck them.   So much for her aversion and opposition to magic, as opposed to the Tevinter Magisters, as claimed by the Chantry.     So following Andraste is not necessarily a betrayal of elf beliefs or Shartan would not be a hero to the Dalish, which he definitely is.     It is the Orlesian Chantry and the humans that follow it that the Dalish despise because they are the ones who betrayed the promise of a homeland for the elves.

[wright1978]

But city elves who join them do actually retain their beliefs.   In DA2 when we initially find Pol he says "Thank the Maker" and then corrects himself to "I mean Creators", but it is clear he is only doing that because he thinks he should and Merrill is standing there.   So you see you can believe something in your heart, even if you have to maintain a façade in order to fit in.   
 
The point is, though, that it doesn't go against being a Dalish to revere Andraste and want to follow her teachings because that is not the same as following the Chantry.     Shartan was comfortable with it and since he was willing to die for her, it would seem that Andraste was happy to accommodate whatever he believed.   She even gave him an ancient sword that had a chance of giving you the power over your opponent's mind when you struck them.   So much for her aversion and opposition to magic, as opposed to the Tevinter Magisters, as claimed by the Chantry.     So following Andraste is not necessarily a betrayal of elf beliefs or Shartan would not be a hero to the Dalish, which he definitely is.     It is the Orlesian Chantry and the humans that follow it that the Dalish despise because they are the ones who betrayed the promise of a homeland for the elves.

Your pol example would suggest being openly andrastian is not acceptable, otherwise he wouldn't feel the need to correct himself.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

An openly Andrastian elf in a Dalish clan would likely get exiled at best & killed at worst.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Lanaya talks about it when the Warden asks if they can get their lifespan back. Her response is "In time, and with seclusion." 

 

I didn't remember that line so I went and looked it up. The reason she believes that is because of the example of Zathrian, which is a special case. And we know his lifespan was for a different reason (and obviously so did he). Either way though, Lanaya is explicitly not xenophobic. That just shows that believing that doesn't make an elf a xenophobe.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I didn't remember that line so I went and looked it up. The reason she believes that is because of the example of Zathrian, which is a special case. And we know his lifespan was for a different reason (and obviously so did he). Either way though, Lanaya is explicitly not xenophobic. That just shows that believing that doesn't make an elf a xenophobe.

Believing that keeping another race from you is good is pretty much the dictionary definition of xenophobia. 

 

noun

1.

an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

 

How do the Dalish not fit this term? Layana is just a more tolerant xenophobe. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

An openly Andrastian elf in a Dalish clan would likely get exiled at best & killed at worst.

Which makes any idea of Dalish and City Elves working together as equals in an elven nation nothing but a pipe dream sadly. 

[HK-90210]

Because the game evidence seen of dalish suggest they would be intolerant of such individuals within their ranks IMO.

 

To me, that's part of the appeal. The idea of a Dalish mage who finds the Andrastian explanations for the Fade and the Black City make more sense than those of the Dalish Keepers. He would also have no dislike for humans, and might end up enjoying their company, after a fashion. Of course, he'd be ostracized for these beliefs if he was public about them while living amongst the Dalish. But once he's the Inquisitor? All bets are off.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Which makes any idea of Dalish and City Elves working together as equals in an elven nation nothing but a pipe dream sadly.

It would be peaceful as long as CE's "conform" with Dalish beliefs, would likely be trouble otherwise.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It would be peaceful as long as CE's "conform" with Dalish beliefs, would likely be trouble otherwise.

So they trade one master for another, great. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Believing that keeping another race from you is good is pretty much the dictionary definition of xenophobia. 

 

noun

1.

an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

 

How do the Dalish not fit this term? Layana is just a more tolerant xenophobe. 

 

Because they simply don't have all an unreasonable hatred of foreigners or strangers. Most of the strangers that run across them are hostile or otherwise the cause of a threat. And the Dalish don't always react with hostility. Lanaya is not a xenophobe at all because she doesn't display any hatred of foreigners. Quite the opposite in fact. She's curious about the outside world.

[Mykel54]

It was really a low blow by Bioware to force the inquisitor to be dalish, so i am hoping that it isn´t a harcore dalish origin but more like "you were raised in a dalish clan", and then you can rp whatever you want from there.

 

The same way that the Vashoth inquisitor could be ambiguous to the Qun, so maybe one character finds it interesting and wants to learn more, while others (like a vashot mage) finds it horrific. A dwarf inquisitor has noble lineage, so he could treat lowborns such as casteless with scorn, or be an all around friendly guy to all dwarfs he meets.

[wright1978]

To me, that's part of the appeal. The idea of a Dalish mage who finds the Andrastian explanations for the Fade and the Black City make more sense than those of the Dalish Keepers. He would also have no dislike for humans, and might end up enjoying their company, after a fashion. Of course, he'd be ostracized for these beliefs if he was public about them while living amongst the Dalish. But once he's the Inquisitor? All bets are off.

Think he'd be exiled for expressing those beliefs, hence my view any such views would have to be private and secret until inquisitor days when he'd be free to express them.