140 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Because they simply don't have all an unreasonable hatred of foreigners or strangers. Most of the strangers that run across them are hostile or otherwise the cause of a threat. And the Dalish don't always react with hostility. Lanaya is not a xenophobe at all because she doesn't display any hatred of foreigners. Quite the opposite in fact. She's curious about the outside world.

Point out one clan that has been otherwise. And codex entries don't count since those are supposed to be biased. The Dalish are hostile to outsider, which cause them to be hostile towards Dalish, which causes Dalish to be hostile, etc. This goes back all the way to when the Dales invaded Orlais. 

 

She is a Dalish, whose culture fears and hates all humans for what a few did. That's a xenophobe by affiliation. And the first thing she does if you sate your curiosity is indirectly insult it. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

A big reason Lanaya is more curious of the outside world then others is cos she's not a true Dalish, she's a City elf turned Dalish.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A big reason Lanaya is more curious of the outside world then others is cos she's not a true Dalish, she's a City elf turned Dalish.

I thought of Sten with your last part.

 

"A farmer can never be a merchant. He will always be a farmer-turned-merchant."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Just because she wasn't born Dalish doesn't mean isn't "true" Dalish. She has every right to claim that's who she is.

 

Point out one clan that has been otherwise. And codex entries don't count since those are supposed to be biased. The Dalish are hostile to outsider, which cause them to be hostile towards Dalish, which causes Dalish to be hostile, etc. This goes back all the way to when the Dales invaded Orlais. 

 

She is a Dalish, whose culture fears and hates all humans for what a few did. That's a xenophobe by affiliation. And the first thing she does if you sate your curiosity is indirectly insult it. 

 

Or you could say it goes back to when the Tevinter Imperium conquered and enslaved the elves of Arlathan. Also the true origins of the Dales/Orlais war are unclear. The earliest record of it only mention border skirmishes without naming only one perpetrator. Besides, the way Orlais so thoroughly and disproportionally dismantled the elven nation after the war is more than enough for the Dalish to be resentful of what was done to them.

 

You can't be a xenophobe be affiliation. You can only be personally xenophobic or not. Besides, Dalish culture isn't inherently about hating humanity. It's about maintaining their culture lore and religion. All of which is illegal under human rule. And all of that anti-Dalish policy was made from the start. Not because of anything the Dalish clans did to "earn" hostility from humans.

 

Besides, you really think this makes the Dalish any worse than any other group of race? Dalish aren't the ones who consider almost anyone who even visits the outside worlds to be so irreversibility tainted that they become literal scum in the eyes of the law. That's the dwarves. The Qunari consider all people not of the Qun to not even be people at all, but "things." And I'm sure I don't need to tell you just how pervasively racist the society of every single human nation is. Even City Elves are extremely insular and hostile to outsiders. They have their own racial slur for elves that leave the alienage.

 

Since we're quoting Sten, then his quote about people not being simple applies:

 

"People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'The elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty.'"

[DarthLaxian]

I really want to play as a Dalish Andrastian.

 

Would have loved to be able to play as a City Elf, so I'm going to try and reject the Dalish culture whenever I can as I play through Inquisition.

 

Hm...

 

rejecting their "culture" (and I use that term loosely, as I do not think they have much of a culture left...they hang on to what they have left, but can't stop losing more and more...It's inevitable, after all clans are whiped out, keepers die before their time, stuff is stolen/lost etc. and nothing new is discovered/made, they are a sad, stagnant bunch...there will be a time when they only have their pride left (some might say: arrogance!)) is fine...

 

but why adopt the maker? - A non-believer is more believable (after all: the creators didn't help his people, why should the maker (why should he even exist?))

 

greetings LAX

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Or you could say it goes back to when the Tevinter Imperium conquered and enslaved the elves of Arlathan. Also the true origins of the Dales/Orlais war are unclear. The earliest record of it only mention border skirmishes without naming only one perpetrator. Besides, the way Orlais so thoroughly and disproportionally dismantled the elven nation after the war is more than enough for the Dalish to be resentful of what was done to them.

 

You can't be a xenophobe be affiliation. You can only be personally xenophobic or not. Besides, Dalish culture isn't inherently about hating humanity. It's about maintaining their culture lore and religion. All of which is illegal under human rule. And all of that anti-Dalish policy was made from the start. Not because of anything the Dalish clans did to "earn" hostility from humans.

 

Besides, you really think this makes the Dalish any worse than any other group of race? Dalish aren't the ones who consider almost anyone who even visits the outside worlds to be so irreversibility tainted that they become literal scum in the eyes of the law. That's the dwarves. The Qunari consider all people not of the Qun to not even be people at all, but "things." And I'm sure I don't need to tell you just how pervasively racist the society of every single human nation is. Even City Elves are extremely insular and hostile to outsiders. They have their own racial slur for elves that leave the alienage.

 

Since we're quoting Sten, then his quote about people not being simple applies.

 

"People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'The elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty.'"

I don't count Tevinter in their hatred of non-Tevinter countries since they got a homeland after helping Andraste from said countries. If someone hates people who give them a nation, then that person have a messed up sense of gratitude. Then again the Dales was the nation that just sat back as the human nations fought the Second Blight...

 

And they are more xenophobic because they want nothing to do with humans. Dwarves still work with surface Dwarves, and both humans and Qunari welcome anyone of any race to join them. They are racist, well the humans anyway, but not xenophobic. 

 

But let's stop. You will never convince me the Dalish aren't one of the more xenophobic cultures anymore than I will convince you they are. 

[Mistic]

It was really a low blow by Bioware to force the inquisitor to be dalish, so i am hoping that it isn´t a harcore dalish origin but more like "you were raised in a dalish clan", and then you can rp whatever you want from there.

 

Your guess is as good as any at this point. However, so far Bioware has provided some limited backgrounds for their protagonists in the last games, nothing like TES blank slates. I must admit that I prefer Bioware's approach, mind you.

 

For example, let's take the Dalish origin. You had a best friend, some other friends, a guardian and you could know the story of both your parents. No room for a "raised by the Dalish" background. Okay, Mass Effect's backgrounds were much more open, but even then you had limits. The trick would be how to play with them.

 

For example, a Dalish Inquisitor might think that his or her people's point of view is too narrow, especially after going on adventure through Thedas. They might have always been curious, and I'm sure there will be many Chantry codex entries in the game to read. Or they might be inspired by devout Andrastian companions or NPCs. They might know the City Elves' struggle and think theirs is the true elven cause.

 

Besides, you really think this makes the Dalish any worse than any other group of race? Dalish aren't the ones who consider almost anyone who even visits the outside worlds to be so irreversibility tainted that they become literal scum in the eyes of the law. That's the dwarves. The Qunari consider all people not of the Qun to not even be people at all, but "things." And I'm sure I don't need to tell you just how pervasively racist the society of every single human nation is. Even City Elves are extremely insular and hostile to outsiders. They have their own racial slur for elves that leave the alienage.

 

Well, that doesn't make the Dalish less xenophobic. That makes everyone a jerkass. And they are, in fact. Thedas is a horrible place to live in.

[Iakus]

 

The point is, though, that it doesn't go against being a Dalish to revere Andraste and want to follow her teachings because that is not the same as following the Chantry.     Shartan was comfortable with it and since he was willing to die for her, it would seem that Andraste was happy to accommodate whatever he believed.   She even gave him an ancient sword that had a chance of giving you the power over your opponent's mind when you struck them.   So much for her aversion and opposition to magic, as opposed to the Tevinter Magisters, as claimed by the Chantry.     So following Andraste is not necessarily a betrayal of elf beliefs or Shartan would not be a hero to the Dalish, which he definitely is.     It is the Orlesian Chantry and the humans that follow it that the Dalish despise because they are the ones who betrayed the promise of a homeland for the elves.

To revere Andraste as one who helped free the elves from Tevinter subjugation might not go against the Dalish beliefs.  Though mentioning that would likely be frowned upon , much as mentioning Shartan is frowned upon by the Chantry.

 

Worshiping the Maker, however, would be something entirely different.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't count Tevinter in their hatred of non-Tevinter countries since they got a homeland after helping Andraste from said countries. If someone hates people who give them a nation, then that person have a messed up sense of gratitude. Then again the Dales was the nation that just sat back as the human nations fought the Second Blight...

 

And they are more xenophobic because they want nothing to do with humans. Dwarves still work with surface Dwarves, and both humans and Qunari welcome anyone of any race to join them. They are racist, well the humans anyway, but not xenophobic. 

 

But let's stop. You will never convince me the Dalish aren't one of the more xenophobic cultures anymore than I will convince you they are. 

 

Since we are talking in generalities, Tevinter is still a human nation. The distinction between Tevinter and non Tevinter nations is an arbitrary one drawn by the Chantry. Elves have little reason to recognize it. Many human nations are also enemies of Orlais but that doesn't mean they treat the Dalish Elves any better.

 

You think the Dalish should show gratitude to all humans for actions of a few for giving them a nation but not be resentful of them all for a few humans taking it away? The events Second Blight is irrelevant to larger relationship between elves and humans. The Dales are hardly the only nation to try to skip out on helping others against Darkspawn or leave others to die in a Blight. Tevinter is guilty of it at least twice.

 

Plus it's established that clans also sometimes trade with human settlements and David Gaider said that some of them have peaceful relations with humans.

 

And since you asked for an example of a Clan that didn't react with hostility: Velanna's Clan.

[Lorien19]

Your guess is as good as any at this point. However, so far Bioware has provided some limited backgrounds for their protagonists in the last games, nothing like TES blank slates. I must admit that I prefer Bioware's approach, mind you.

 

For example, let's take the Dalish origin. You had a best friend, some other friends, a guardian and you could know the story of both your parents. No room for a "raised by the Dalish" background. Okay, Mass Effect's backgrounds were much more open, but even then you had limits. The trick would be how to play with them.

 

For example, a Dalish Inquisitor might think that his or her people's point of view is too narrow, especially after going on adventure through Thedas. They might have always been curious, and I'm sure there will be many Chantry codex entries in the game to read. Or they might be inspired by devout Andrastian companions or NPCs. They might know the City Elves' struggle and think theirs is the true elven cause.

 

 

Well, that doesn't make the Dalish less xenophobic. That makes everyone a jerkass. And they are, in fact. Thedas is a horrible place to live in.

This is pretty much how I plan to RP my main Dalish character,still loves her people,wants to preserve their culture and see them thrive,but more open-minded about other people and their beliefs.

And yeah,Thedas is indeed a horrible place to be but I like that they managed to make the universe grey than having one group portrayed as evil while another one as good.And now that having characters like Mae and possibly Dorian, who represent a more "noble" side of the Tevinter imperium,is also refreshing.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, that doesn't make the Dalish less xenophobic. That makes everyone a jerkass. And they are, in fact. Thedas is a horrible place to live in.

 

Well my point was more about the Dalish being singled out.

[myahele]

It's understandable why they are so xenophobic. Each clan varies by number, though I doubt that they'll be that large. Think less than 50 per clan and not all of which are warriors. They have to live off the land and constantly travel.

 

They are considered roaming barbarians by most people and they harbor at least 2 apostates.

 

A lord with a simple military, Templars, or maybe even a group of bandits, etc can massacre them or at least kill many of them.

[Mistic]

This is pretty much how I plan to RP my main Dalish character,still loves her people,wants to preserve their culture and see them thrive,but more open-minded about other people and their beliefs.

And yeah,Thedas is indeed a horrible place to be but I like that they managed to make the universe grey than having one group portrayed as evil while another one as good.And now that having characters like Mae and possibly Dorian, who represent a more "noble" side of the Tevinter imperium,is also refreshing.

 

I agree. As much as people love to work with stereotypes (makes life easier, but not better), even in Thedas groups aren't monolithic. I think Inquisition will provide several cases of that, such as Dorian "the Nice Tevinter Magister" or Iron Bull "The Undercover Fun-Loving Qunari". Being critic about your group doesn't mean not being part of it, no matter what the No True Scotsman fallacy says.

 

I mean, DA:O already provided examples of different approaches to culture and religion, including the Dalish Origin itself.

 

Paivel: "Children, hear of the fall of the Dales! Hear the tale of what makes you Dalish. Would you care to begin, da'len?"

Dalish Warden: "Well, children, it begins with a mommy and daddy elf..."

 

(Every time I play that scene, I just can't not use the third option )

 

That initial dialogue with Paivel is the equivalent of the Human Noble's dialogue with the Chantry priest at their castle. It serves to paint your character as a serious and devout follower, a snarky and irreverent believer, a person who just doesn't care about those issues or even an atheist, among different roleplaying choices. I hope Inquisition will provide scenes like that.

 

Well my point was more about the Dalish being singled out.

 

I understand. However, this is a thread about elves, so it's understandable to have the Dalish hat mentioned. And let's be honest, as much as I love Dalish lore and culture, they have their issues. As Lorien19 pointed out, there's no white in Thedas. Everyone has their own share of being victims and jerks. Well, maybe Tevinter could be called 'black', but it seems Dorian is here to change even that.

[Sifr]

To revere Andraste as one who helped free the elves from Tevinter subjugation might not go against the Dalish beliefs.  Though mentioning that would likely be frowned upon , much as mentioning Shartan is frowned upon by the Chantry.

 

Worshiping the Maker, however, would be something entirely different.

 

Velanna in Awakening is a good example of this. Despite being quite intolerant of Humans and even City Elves, she openly admits that she reveres Andraste for her role in helping the Elves free themselves from slavery, even if she doesn't believe in her god or the chantry she founded.

 

I could see a Dalish maybe taking bits from Andraste and the Dalish's teachings, but I doubt they'd go the full hog and embrace the Maker entirely. I'd more suspect that like with Pol, who was raised Andrastian and later came to worship the Creators, they'd be more likely to be polytheistic.

 

_{(On a similar note, Varric worships both the Maker and the Dwarven Ancestors, so it's not unheard of for some people in Thedas to practice this).}

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Just about every Dalish character's perspective on Andraste has been positive, although Velanna says that she "should" hate her but doesn't. I get the sense she's usually considered a secular heroic or inspirational figure.

[Jessihatt]

Hm...
 
but why adopt the maker? - A non-believer is more believable (after all: the creators didn't help his people, why should the maker (why should he even exist?))
 
greetings LAX

Good point!
Personally I believe the Chantry know a lot more than they are letting on (Legacy DLC for example), and that there might be some truth behind the religion.

Course my Dalish Inquisitor won't know about Corypheus or have extensive knowledge on Darkspawn.
If Andrastian isn't available for my Dalish, non-believer it is

Their arrogance and pride as you mentioned doesn't really endear me towards them.

[Finnn62]

Hey, don't know if anyone's mentioned, but didn't Pol, at one point say something like "Thank Andrast… I mean, the creators!". He was "worldly" Merrill said, but it sounds like there are some Dalish elves who get to be more accustomed human religion than their own.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hey, don't know if anyone's mentioned, but didn't Pol, at one point say something like "Thank Andrast… I mean, the creators!". He was "worldly" Merrill said, but it sounds like there are some Dalish elves who get to be more accustomed human religion than their own.

Well, Pol was a City Elf, so it is more he hasn't broken the habit fully yet. 

[Dean_the_Young]

This reminds me of my plans for my Tophquisitor: a Dalish Mage who hates all the rules that Dalish society has and revels in being able to do what she wants now. Based after Toph in Avatar: The Last Airbender.

 

Including having a precocious crush on the biggest, most awesome dork of the series?

 

I approve, but I think Alistair is already taken.

 

 

(But, no, I agree: Toph was an incredibly awesome, non-stereotypical female character. Who was awesome.)

[Finnn62]

Well, Pol was a City Elf, so it is more he hasn't broken the habit fully yet. 

 

Yeah, you're right. I had forgotten that he did come from the city originally. I guess, that's true. Still I don't think it's far fetched to imagine that some Dalish could internally question whether the creators are the truth or whether maybe the humans are correct about Andraste. Although, I guess as a whole the Dalish would be pretty unified in their religious views.

[Dean_the_Young]

I fail to see how being Dalish means you can't identify as an Andrastian. In the same way a person who is of Jewish ethnicity who identifies as Christian. The two can co-exist. One is a cultural group, the other religious. Is it common? No. Do they mesh well together? Not always.

 

Also, can a Qunari Inquisitor be an Andrastian? Since they were born and raised outside the Qun, I would say so.

 

Dalish isn't an ethnic or racial identity: Dalish is a cultural identity. The Dalish culture is defined by, well, it's culture, including the adherence to the Dalish faith. Someone who is Andrastian is not practicing the Dalish culture and is thus, by definition, not Dalish.

 

Rather than Christian Jew, where the identities are not mutually exclusive because one can  be ethnic but not imply religion, the comparison would be a Christian Muslim.
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

God, I hope not. I'm sick of Andrastians proselytizing other people.

 

Ostagar priestess: "The Maker accepts all those who would hear Him."

Elven Warden: "And does he steal the homeland of those who don't?"

Dalish attacked first, so that elf can shove it up their bum. 

[Dean_the_Young]

While I fully support the ability for players to not play as an Andrastian, including Dalish being able to choose Dalish-oriented dialogue...

 

I would really like to be able to express pro-Andrastian (and even pro-Chantry) sentiment even as a Dalish or Qunari. I have an interest in playing a Dalish as one disillusioned with the Dalish past and open or interested in conversion. Even without an actual direct dialogue plot, I'd appreciate the ability to have headcanon-compatible scenes or dialogue options to that effect;