140 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

According to the human records of the time, after they ransacked and robbed an entire nation, and therefore have every reason to retroactively lie to ease their own conscience, so you can shove that up your bum.

Even the biased Dalish storyteller thinks the Dalish probably played a part in their downfall. But lets look at the string of events.

 

Tensions between Orlais and Dales strain due to Dales not helping in Second Blight

Chantry sends missionaries to Dales to spread Chant

Dales kick missionaries out

Chantry sends Templars to defend missionaries

Dales butcher the town of Red Crossing then start carving through Orlais

Orlais asks for help which the Chantry gives in an Exalted March

Dales forces pushed back into the Dales and have the ability to make war stripped from them

 

Also, why the personal attack in the underlined. I never said you, I said that elf. 

[Dean_the_Young]

According to the human records of the time, after they ransacked and robbed an entire nation, and therefore have every reason to retroactively lie to ease their own conscience, so you can shove that up your bum.

 

Strange that the Dalish never deny the charge then. They don't even provide a counter-scenario of a sequence of events leading to the war. Their series of events just goes 'missionaries, then templars,' without mentioning anything in between.

 

Of course, the Dalish don't mention a lot of things about the Dales-Orlais war, even the parts that are a matter of historic record. They don't mention Dale policies towards their neighbors during the previous Blight. They don't mention Red Crossing. They don't even mention how their armies were nearly at the Orlais captial. They're also pretty vague on the nature and reasoning of the Exalted March and international coalition against them.

 

The Dalish don't really dispute or challenge the official series of events. Which is odd if you think the Andrastian nations made up a reason to go to war with the Dales, because accusing the aggressors of lying would be the obvious and sensible thing to do if the Dalish were the innocent victims.

 

But the Dalish don't. They just gloss over the human perspective, and call the destruction of the Dales a betrayal because reasons.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That doesn't mean they attacked first or that the events played out the way the humans claim they did.

 

Also, the "biased" (oh right, like Andrastian historians scholars - who are all clerics by the way - aren't biased) Dalish storyteller also points out that human version of that part of history was written from the point-of-view of the winners.

I never said the Chantry people weren't. The chain of events I listed are from World of Thedas however, and that book is Word of God. What that book says happens, happened. 

 

I only said biased because he casts all blame on humans when that is not so, hence biased. 

 

 

 

And humans finding elves creepy for living in their own country and practicing their own religion.

 

Quoth the Daish Codex from human POV: "But the old era wasn't through with the[ elves]. In their forest city, the elves turned again to worship their silent, ancient gods. They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse. Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods."

 

It wasn't just the second Blight, humans also couldn't stand elves living in their own country, minding their own business, not wanting to be bothered as well as not bothering others, preferring to worship their own Gods instead of converting to the one the humans felt they should worship instead.

 

Dark rumors circulate about all nations. I'm sure the Dalish didn't think anything dark about the humans.

The relations wasn't really strained however until the Second Blight when the Dales forces literally just sat and watched as Orlais was decimated. 

 

 

Even though the elves didn't ask for and didn't want them there.

They can just say they aren't interested. Kicking out, or possibly worse, people just because they want to inform others of their religion is pretty messed up. 

 

 

Which the elves were well within their rights to do since it was their country and their religion, and they could refuse the Chant if they didn't want it.

 

Imagine if the elves had sent missionaries trying to convert humans to their religion, humans told them to GTO, then elves sent their Emerald Knights to try to force the humans to keep their unwanted missionaries within their borders to convert their people?

Where does it say they have rights to kick out humans? Please share.

Their nation was a gift from who? Oh yeah, the followers of the eventual religion they were kicking out. The least they can do is let them preach in the corner and just ignore them. 

I'd think the elves were being logical in defending their missionaries. 

 

 

Why would they need to "defend" the missionaries if the elves were just kicking them out? Unless they were just trying to keep them from getting kicked out, which sounds an awful lot like forcing their religion on the Dales to me. If the elves don't want them there, they don't have to keep them there. The missionaries and Templars should have taken the hint and kindly left, not tried to force the elves to let them stay in.

 

Because the missionaries felt threatened. The Dalish could still say "Sorry, not interested." 

 

 

According to the humans, the elves started the war by butchering Red Crossing. They claim the attack was unprovoked and the village completely defenseless (and imply it was the first attack), but I'm not sure. Considering humans had already been poisoning people's views of elves by "rumoring" of human kidnappings and sacrifices to elven gods (with no proof), provoking the elves by trying to push their way into their borders, push their religion onto them, then sent armed Templars in response to the elves throwing the missionaries out, I rather doubt it. It sounds like humans attacked first, and/or there was already fighting and/or there was already war by the attack on Red Crossing and/or the carving through Orlais. (Toward the Andrastian capital where most of the Templars are, after Templars had been sent into elven territory.)

 

Before the war, it was humans who consistently wanted into elven territory and not the other way around. After the war, it was humans who got ownership of the elven territory they had wanted into before. Just saying.

 

Orlais asks for help which the Chantry gives in an Exalted March

 

Against the elves that rejected their missionaries, then fought against the Templars they sent in response to the elves rejecting their missionaries.

 

World of Thedas states that the Dales started their offensive campaign by butchering the town of Red Crossing because they were housing the missionaries and Templars there due to being a border town. So according to Bioware, that is the first battle

 

What it seems was that people didn't know anything about a race that didn't share anything about themselves, and their only interaction with humans was kicking them out. And despite the fear of the Dales, the Dales had no right whatsoever to raid, kill, rape, and who knows what else Orlesian civilians whose only crime was being in the way.

 

The land that was given to the Dalish who in turned ignored helping those in need of it. Anmd the victors get the spoils. You know if Orlais had lost the Dales would have claimed all of it. Just saying.

 

And no, the Exalted March was declared when the Dales armies were practically on the Orlesian capital's doorstep, not when the missionaries and Templars were kicked out.

 

 

If they made war in the first place at all. More like "have the ability to reject Anstrastianism [as a nation] stripped away from them."

 

I say again, just because the humans claimed x, y, and z happened doesn't mean their version is automatically the correct one.

 

Again, the first battle of the war according to WoT is the battle of Red Crossing.

 

And just because the humans won doesn't mean everything they say about the war is a lie. You have no proof it is. 

 

And as Dean said, for a story full of lies like you think the Dalish sure don't try to correct it but just go "It's the shemlen's fault.". 

 

And don't reply please. I was just answering your post as a courtesy. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

World of Thedas says that the fighting started with border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais in 2:5 Glory. Four years later Red Crossing was attacked by a raiding party.

 

Tension mounted mainly because of 1) anti-elven sentiment left over from the Second Blight. 2) The Dales seemed isolationist and guarded their borders with the Emerald Knights 3) The Chantry became angry when the Dales expelled the Chantry missionaries and rejected the Maker.

 

If you believe that Orlais has the moral right to do whatever they want because they won the war with the Dales, then the same thing should apply to anything the elves did.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

World of Thedas says that the fighting started with border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais in 2:5 Glory. Four years later Red Crossing was attacked by a raiding party.

 

Tension mounted mainly because of 1) anti-elven sentiment left over from the Second Blight. 2) The Dales seemed isolationist and guarded their borders with the Emerald Knights 3) The Chantry became angry when the Dales expelled the Chantry missionaries and rejected the Maker.

 

If you believe that Orlais has the moral right to do whatever they want because they won the war with the Dales, then the same thing should apply to anything the elves did.

And we have no idea who started those border skirmishes. Some were probably human. Some were probably Dalish. 

 

All logical things to have tension build up for. 

 

And I believe that Orlais had the right to make sure the Dales were unable to make war, as in disarm their military, as a means of ensuring their defense and claim the Dales for themselves. With the former done, the claiming of the land could have been a blessing in disguise since otherwise it would have been torn apart by nations wanting a chunk for themselves. The treatment of the City Elves I despise. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Regardless, we should stay on topic. This is about whether our Dalish Inquisitors can convert to other religions or drop all religions, not who was right in the Dales-Orlais War. 

[Cy.]

Makes as much sense to Cy, as a Christian-Witch Doctor

[Finnn62]

On topic: I hope Elven Inquisitors don't get the chance to express Andrastiansim. But I'm sure they will because of roleplaying freedom and all that.

 

I hope that all races have a chance to express belief in all the other races' belief systems. We should be able to play an elf who believes in the Ancestors and thinks we all go back to the stone when we die, a qunari who believes in the Creators, a human who follows the Qun, or a dwarf who follows Andrastianism. Or just for fun make a character who believes in all the religions, Life of Pi style 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I hope that all races have a chance to express belief in all the other races belief systems. We should be able to play a elf who thinks everyone goes back to the stone when they die, an qunari who believes in the creators, a human who follows the qun, or a dwarf who follows andrastianism. Or just for fun make a character who believes in all the religions, Life of Pi style 

I don't think the Qun will be an option since the Inquisition can't exist if you're with the Qun. They couldn't even let the Qunari be of the Qun because of the incredibly small RP options it provides.

[Finnn62]

I don't think the Qun will be an option since the Inquisition can't exist if you're with the Qun. They couldn't even let the Qunari be of the Qun because of the incredibly small RP options it provides.

Alright, I guess, so… but all the others should be possible, and maybe the option to express a very high respect of Qunari religious views 

[KC_Prototype]

While an elf could be raised Dalish and convert to Andrastrianism, I doubt they would identify as Dalish anymore at that point.

The same reason why a human or elf would convert to the Qun. They find that religion more appealing.

[Joe25]

I would find to hard for the Dalish to even be on speaking terms with the Chantery in Orlais. After, the fall of the Dales the Chantery censored all elves and Dalish from the pictorial history. In a way I can't see the Dalish and Chantery to be on any terms until the Divine says publicly "If it wasn't for you we'd wouldn't be here. And, we had no right to take your land.". But, that is never going to happen because their land is not the Chantery's to give back.     

[Chari]

My Mahariel belived in Creators, Stone Ancestors, Old Gods and the Maker
The more the merrier

[Hanako Ikezawa]

My Mahariel belived in Creators, Stone Ancestors, Old Gods and the Maker
The more the merrier

Didn't believe in the Qun?

You fail!

[Chari]

Didn't believe in the Qun?
You fail!

Oh my, forgive me Almighty Koslun
Yeah, Qun too thanks to Sten

[Who Knows]

If my inquisitor has to follow a belief system I hope I can choose the elven pantheon. It's easily the least morally troubling.

[LenaMarie]

I remember being totally annoyed in da:o about the "What in andrastes name is going on here!" Dialogue option at the Circle tower when I did the dalish and dwarf runs

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Were those your only options though? There's a lot of generic Andrastian options that all origins got, it's only a problem if there is no other choices.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Were those your only options though? There's a lot of generic Andrastian options that all origins got, it's only a problem if there is no other choices.

Only time i remember Dalish wardens having a choice to praise the creators was after defending Redcliff, was Andrastian phrases otherwise.

[LenaMarie]

Only time i remember Dalish wardens having a choice to praise the creators was after defending Redcliff, was Andrastian phrases otherwise.

Yes i think your right, that was as far as I recall the only instance dalish could affirm their religion outside the dalish origin. Though I think I recall dwarves having a few more instances to praise the stone. It's dalish really that got shafted

[Kimarous]

Didn't believe in the Qun?

You fail!

 

Isn't the Qun more a way of life than a religion? I thought the Qunari didn't give a crap what you believed as long as it didn't interfere with productivity.

[Dean_the_Young]

On the other hand, the elves stick to what actually happened. Both the human and elven version agree the conflict involved humans sending missionaries into the Dales, the missionaries getting kicked out, then humans sending Templars after. Yet, most of the human details given beyond these are just unflattering descriptions demonizing the elves; poisoning the reader against them before getting into what they actually did wrong. I'm seeing Poisoning the Well and Ad Hominem here.

 

Dalish Codex, Human POV: "But the old era wasn't through with them. In their forest city, the elves turned again to worship their silent, ancient gods. They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse." Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods."

 

 

Jeez, how melodramatic can this thing get? And are these unflattering details really necessary to explain what happened? Or is it just there to paint the elves as horribly as they can before so the reader hates them as much as possible so as to take the Andrastians' side by the time they decide to invade and take the Dales?

 

Also, "dark rumors" "whispers of humans sacrificed and sacrifces"? No proof whatever that these rumors were true, but the humans will still treat them as being true before the supposed attack at Red Crossings, and use it as "proof" that the elves were evil and untrustworthy and deserving of having their land stripped even before the supposed attack.

 

I'm inclined to believe the side that doesn't Poison the other's Well.

 

It's kind of hard to say the Dalish stick to what actually happened when they are the most fact-adverse society in Thedas. Their lore sources are extremely scarce of any facts that could be historically verified one way or another, and (un)impressively devoid of quite relevant historical information like names, important leaders, locations, dates, and so on. They treat history like they treat their myths, which is to say the only names worth remembering are the legendary ones, and everything and everyone else gets blended together. Which makes sense- the Dalish are an oral culture, and oral histories rarely bother with that sort of thing- but to suggest that they are any less biased or any more objective is rather silly.

 

Heck, they don't even mention the Exalted March by name- even though the Chantry's involvement and entry into the conflict ('the Templars' that tore down the Dales) was, by historical record, almost a year after the Dales-Orlais war even started. The Dalish narrative doesn't even mention the Dalish-Orlais war at all- as in, the fact that Elven armies were at the Orlais capital before the international coalition formed is completely airbrushed from the historical record.

 

Seriously: look at the Dalish accounting of the war.

 

 

You will hear tales of the woman Andraste. The shemlen name her prophet, bride of their Maker. But we knew her as a war leader, one who, like us, had been a slave and dreamed of liberation. We joined her rebellion against the Imperium, and our heroes died beside her, unmourned, in Tevinter bonfires.

 

But we stayed with our so-called allies until the war ended. Our reward: A land in southern Orlais called the Dales. So we began the Long Walk to our new home.

Halamshiral, "the end of the journey," was our capital, built out of the reach of the humans. We could once again forget the incessant passage of time. Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery.

 

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

 

We took a different path. We took to the wilderness, never stopping long enough to draw the notice of our shemlen neighbors. In our self-imposed exile, we kept what remained of elven knowledge and culture alive.

 

This is it. Four short sentences, two of which don't even describe the war itself. When people talk about the Dalish claiming the Templars were a provocation, they are misreading the Dalish position. The Dalish don't claim there were Templars sent to the borders, and thus a war that they ended up losing. The Dalish place the Templars at the resolution, not beginning.

 

Notice anything missing, though? Such as any reference to a decade long war? Any border conflict and raiding, justified or otherwise, with Orlais? The Exalted March? Heck, reason we know about the Emereld Knights is the Chantry source. Same with dates.

 

 

If you want to go with sources of unbiased objectivity, the Dalish aren't the society to adhere to. The Human records reflect biases, but also provide historical facts that could be independently verified by outside sources or observers. Were their dark sacrifices? Who knows- even the Chantry-written codex we get doesn't claim it. Were there rumors of dark sacrifices that influenced sentiment at the time? That's the relevant description of the tensions, and that is a historical fact not in dispute.

 

If you don't want to believe the society that poisoned the other's well, I can hardly stop you, but it seems silly to think the society that actually talks about their own poisoning of others wells is somehow less credible than the one that doesn't.