140 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

I can't be the only one who thinks both versions about the fall of the Dales aren't mutually exclusive. As far as we know, neither side can deny the other's accusations. The only difference is the importance they give to the events.

 

According to the Dalish, they were living in peace without attacking anybody until the Chantry sent missionaries, then Templars were sentand, voila!, war happened. The Red Crossing incident? Who cares.

 

According to the humans, the Dalish were isolationist jerks who never helped them and then one day they decided to attack Red Crossing just like that and war happened. The missionaries and templars? Who cares.

 

Even taking both versions into account, there's a blank between the missionaries and templars were sent and the attack on Red Crossing. Something happened in between. However, far from expecting some kind of conspiracy or the definite proof that one side is right, I feel that it was probably a tragic misunderstanding or a series of mistakes that led to that.

 

Yes i think your right, that was as far as I recall the only instance dalish could affirm their religion outside the dalish origin. Though I think I recall dwarves having a few more instances to praise the stone. It's dalish really that got shafted

 

Well, there were many options, but most of them were about not believing in the Maker, rather than saying that you believed in the Creators. Now that I think about it, not only the PC, Dalish in general don't praise the Creators as often as Andrastians praise the Maker or Andraste's something, or the Dwarves praise the Stone.

 

Including having a precocious crush on the biggest, most awesome dork of the series?

 

I approve, but I think Alistair is already taken.

 

Hey, remember that there's still Cullen Nevertheless, Sasha Braus' Tophquisitor idea sounds very promising.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to the source that claims the Templars were sent in before Red Crossing. Credibility can come after, but just the source that Templars were one of the provocations.

 

None of the Chantry sources that I can find claim it, and none of the Dalish codex that I can find about the Dales do either. Especially the Dales codex from the Dalish perspective, the most cited source, doesn't actually claim that: that Codex not only doesn't mention Red Crossing at all, it doesn't place the Templars as a provocation. The structural logic is 'missionaries, then templars, then we were scattered', not 'missionaries, then Templars, then there was a war.' Templars are attributed as scattering the Dalish and destroying the Dales- something that only occurred a decade after the missionaries could have been an instigating factor. The only context in which this makes sense is if 'Templars' is the Dalish short-hand for 'the Exalted March' and the Chantry's intervention- otherwise the Dalish provide no attribution about what scattered them. But this runs into the fact that the Exalted March resolved the conflict, not started it. Which fits the structural use of the Templars as a decisive factor, rather than an instigating one.

 

I can't find a codex or lore source that suggests the Templars were before Red Crossing, and I can't recall any credible Dalish claiming so either. I'm half convinced that this theory is one of those consistently repeated headcanons that turns into popular fanon, regardless of a lack of support. It fits and vindicates a lot of other views that a good number of people have.

[Mistic]

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to the source that claims the Templars were sent in before Red Crossing. Credibility can come after, but just the source that Templars were one of the provocations.

 

None of the Chantry sources that I can find claim it, and none of the Dalish codex that I can find about the Dales do either. Especially the Dales codex from the Dalish perspective, the most cited source, doesn't actually claim that: that Codex not only doesn't mention Red Crossing at all, it doesn't place the Templars as a provocation. The structural logic is 'missionaries, then templars, then we were scattered', not 'missionaries, then Templars, then there was a war.' Templars are attributed as scattering the Dalish and destroying the Dales- something that only occurred a decade after the missionaries could have been an instigating factor. The only context in which this makes sense is if 'Templars' is the Dalish short-hand for 'the Exalted March' and the Chantry's intervention- otherwise the Dalish provide no attribution about what scattered them. But this runs into the fact that the Exalted March resolved the conflict, not started it. Which fits the structural use of the Templars as a decisive factor, rather than an instigating one.

 

I can't find a codex or lore source that suggests the Templars were before Red Crossing, and I can't recall any credible Dalish claiming so either. I'm half convinced that this theory is one of those consistently repeated headcanons that turns into popular fanon, regardless of a lack of support. It fits and vindicates a lot of other views that a good number of people have.

 

True, now that I look into it, the Templar reference is a common interpretation of the Dalish codex about the Dales, but nothing more. Your interpretation about it being a way to mention the Exalted March (like Muslim sources called the Crusaders 'Franks', even Crusaders from other countries) sounds more than plausible.

 

(What I don't understand is the 'decade' part. What are you referring to?).

 

I hope that the upcomig game will provide more lore about the war. I mean, we're going to visit the Dales themselves, I'd be surprised if we don't find a codex entry or two, apart from the ones we already know. As I said, templars or not, there's a big blank in both versions between "missionaries" and "attacking Red Crossing".

[Mykel54]

So why didn´t the Dalish just accept the missionaries and convert? Couldn´t they see it would be politically convenient to do so? Plus, Andraste saved them from slavery, and she was guided by the Maker, so they have more reasons to respect her.

 

Why do the Dalish insist on worshipping some ancient gods (who are dead?) of the fallen Arlathan? I mean, what have those ancient gods ever done for them? Did they free them from slavery? I don´t think so.

 

In my mind the Dalish are simply stubborn, and i think the main reason they refuse to convert is because the keepers are mages and know what would await them in andastrian society, so they would rather keep the old system were they are in charge. Very selfish if you ask me, if the elves of the Dales had converted then they would have kept the homeland the humans gave them.

[Mistic]

So why didn´t the Dalish just accept the missionaries and convert? Couldn´t they see it would be politically convenient to do so? Plus, Andraste saved them from slavery, and she was guided by the Maker, so they have more reasons to respect her.

 

Why do the Dalish insist on worshipping some ancient gods (who are dead?) of the fallen Arlathan? I mean, what have those ancient gods ever done for them? Did they free them from slavery? I don´t think so.

 

In my mind the Dalish are simply stubborn, and i think the main reason they refuse to convert is because the keepers are mages and know what would await them in andastrian society, so they would rather keep the old system were they are in charge. Very selfish if you ask me, if the elves of the Dales had converted then they would have kept the homeland the humans gave them.

 

From a pragmatic point of view, it may be so, but religion is something more than a politically convenient set of rules for people who practice it. Andraste freed them and there were some, like Shartan himself, who converted. Yet it was their right to choose. If people's faith depended on the answer to the question "What has God done for me lately?", few believers would exist today. And the same is true for Thedas. I mean, it's even more true, since Andrastianism actually states that the Maker has abandoned them, but if they prove that they love Andraste very much, He will come back. Probably.

 

Also, being Andrastian doesn't stop countries from going to war. Tevinter is Andrastian, yet it has suffered many Exalted Marches because of their interpretation about magic. Hell, they suffered an Exalted March even before the schism happened (2:80 Exalted March against Tevinter for Starkhaven). Ferelden is White Chantry Andrastian, yet Orlais invaded and conquered it in the past.

[The Ascendant]

My Dalish Mage Inquisitor will have respect for Andraste as she was an extraordinary woman who helped free the elves. He believes that she was not divine just a powerful mage who fought to free people from the Imperium.
He visits the temple out of scholarly curiosity and to see how the Chantry's view on magic might affect the Dalish.

[Dean_the_Young]

True, now that I look into it, the Templar reference is a common interpretation of the Dalish codex about the Dales, but nothing more. Your interpretation about it being a way to mention the Exalted March (like Muslim sources called the Crusaders 'Franks', even Crusaders from other countries) sounds more than plausible.

 

(What I don't understand is the 'decade' part. What are you referring to?).

 

At least according to the dates from the wiki, the fall of the dales was a decade-long affair. Red Crossing was 2:9 glory. Montsimmard was captured in 2:10 Glory, which is when the elves were on the figurative doorstep of Val Royeaux. The Dales were ultimately crushed by 2:20 Glory.

 

On the other hand, the wiki does insinuate that the Chantry was responsible for the anti-elf rumors without a source supporting that claim. So maybe the wiki is wrong.

 

 

I hope that the upcomig game will provide more lore about the war. I mean, we're going to visit the Dales themselves, I'd be surprised if we don't find a codex entry or two, apart from the ones we already know. As I said, templars or not, there's a big blank in both versions between "missionaries" and "attacking Red Crossing".

 

 

Oh, indeed. Read between the lines on both sides and it's pretty much a border dispute between bad neighbors. I can't recall the source (one of the books? Asunder?), but I seem to recall there's one Dalish who claims that Red Crossing was just one exceptionally bad border raid in a period of raids.

 

Of course, I also expect that Dalish history is generally filled with things the Dalish have preferred to have forgotten, and their supporters would prefer not to believe: Masked Empire revealed elven slavery, for example. When it comes to the Dales themselves, I'd be more surprised if they weren't an authoritarian, religiously intolerant state that ruthlessly repressed dissidents and cultural deviants. Entire societies don't adopt monolithic positions in the best of times, let alone a cultural purity campaign coinciding with xenophobic isolationism and a lack of known dissident refugees without serious coercive measures.

 

Far from being a haven of elven cultural freedom, there probably wasn't much of a choice if you were born and lived in the Dales. You either contributed to the reclamation of elven culture, as defined by the authorities empowered to separate elven culture from human corruption, or... well, no known elven refugees disagreed. And there are always dissenters.
 

[Killdren88]

Yeah Dalish are Elves who embraced their old traditions and religions. If you are a Andrastian. You are not Dalish. If anything you are an elf who dabbled in Dalish culture, but never converted.

[Chari]

At least according to the dates from the wiki, the fall of the dales was a decade-long affair. Red Crossing was 2:9 glory. Montsimmard was captured in 2:10 Glory, which is when the elves were on the figurative doorstep of Val Royeaux. The Dales were ultimately crushed by 2:20 Glory.

On the other hand, the wiki does insinuate that the Chantry was responsible for the anti-elf rumors without a source supporting that claim. So maybe the wiki is wrong.


Oh, indeed. Read between the lines on both sides and it's pretty much a border dispute between bad neighbors. I can't recall the source (one of the books? Asunder?), but I seem to recall there's one Dalish who claims that Red Crossing was just one exceptionally bad border raid in a period of raids.

Of course, I also expect that Dalish history is generally filled with things the Dalish have preferred to have forgotten, and their supporters would prefer not to believe: Masked Empire revealed elven slavery, for example. When it comes to the Dales themselves, I'd be more surprised if they weren't an authoritarian, religiously intolerant state that ruthlessly repressed dissidents and cultural deviants. Entire societies don't adopt monolithic positions in the best of times, let alone a cultural purity campaign coinciding with xenophobic isolationism and a lack of known dissident refugees without serious coercive measures.

Far from being a haven of elven cultural freedom, there probably wasn't much of a choice if you were born and lived in the Dales. You either contributed to the reclamation of elven culture, as defined by the authorities empowered to separate elven culture from human corruption, or... well, no known elven refugees disagreed. And there are always dissenters.

Level of dalishphobia?
Its over 9000!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I can't be the only one who thinks both versions about the fall of the Dales aren't mutually exclusive. As far as we know, neither side can deny the other's accusations. The only difference is the importance they give to the events.

 

According to the Dalish, they were living in peace without attacking anybody until the Chantry sent missionaries, then Templars were sentand, voila!, war happened. The Red Crossing incident? Who cares.

 

According to the humans, the Dalish were isolationist jerks who never helped them and then one day they decided to attack Red Crossing just like that and war happened. The missionaries and templars? Who cares.

 

Even taking both versions into account, there's a blank between the missionaries and templars were sent and the attack on Red Crossing. Something happened in between. However, far from expecting some kind of conspiracy or the definite proof that one side is right, I feel that it was probably a tragic misunderstanding or a series of mistakes that led to that.

 

 

Well, there were many options, but most of them were about not believing in the Maker, rather than saying that you believed in the Creators. Now that I think about it, not only the PC, Dalish in general don't praise the Creators as often as Andrastians praise the Maker or Andraste's something, or the Dwarves praise the Stone.

 

I keep saying this too. Even their "conflicting" accounts of the true reasons and motives of both sides starting the war aren't mutually exclusive. The elves seem to think that the Chantry and Orlais coveted the Dales and wanted it's people to convert. The Chantry says the they were only responding to the elves' attacks at Red Crossing and Montsimmard. Both could still be true, especially since we don't know who started the border clashes.

 

Although I also keep saying that the lore doesn't really say that the Chantry sent in Templars to the Dales. The Dalish codex is the only thing that mentions it and it's so abbreviated that I think it's a reference to the Exalted March itself not a reference to to an incident prior to the war.

[Mykel54]

So if a kid throws a stone in the face to other, and then the hurt kid goes and brings his dog and throws it on the first kid. Who is at fault here?

It seems to be what you are debating, "who threw the first stone?". It seems like a very school-ground like moralism.

 

I don´t think you could ever know it for sure (you could find one written evidence, but what about all the unwritten evidences? like a kid getting bullied, you could see one bruise, but is this the first time? how long has the kid been abused? you don´t know, specially if the kid can´t talk because he is dead.)

 

An besides, i don´t think it is important, like many wars in the middle east these days, conflicts escalate from small things, and there is no point in trying to find out who was the one to give the first punch when the whole place is surrounded by dead from all sides, even the bystanders.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hey, remember that there's still Cullen Nevertheless, Sasha Braus' Tophquisitor idea sounds very promising.

Thanks.

 

And tbh Cullen was possibly going to be that character's LI. A Chantry Templar and a Dalish Mage is the ultimate opposite worlds thing, and he does use a one handed sword like Sokka.

[Dean_the_Young]

Level of dalishphobia?
Its over 9000!

 

Dalishphobia would be an irational fear of the Dalish.

 

I can't say I'm particularly afraid of the Dalish, and my pessimism comes more from historical commonalities between highly isolationist groups that had explicit goals of cultural purity. None that come to mind had anything approaching a liberal or open-minded polity. It would be far more irrational if I backwards project the Dalish's current social attitude backwards onto the Dales, but I've long been one of the few to argue that the Dalish probably have very little in common with the Dales culturally.

[Mistic]

Of course, I also expect that Dalish history is generally filled with things the Dalish have preferred to have forgotten, and their supporters would prefer not to believe: Masked Empire revealed elven slavery, for example. When it comes to the Dales themselves, I'd be more surprised if they weren't an authoritarian, religiously intolerant state that ruthlessly repressed dissidents and cultural deviants. Entire societies don't adopt monolithic positions in the best of times, let alone a cultural purity campaign coinciding with xenophobic isolationism and a lack of known dissident refugees without serious coercive measures.

 

Far from being a haven of elven cultural freedom, there probably wasn't much of a choice if you were born and lived in the Dales. You either contributed to the reclamation of elven culture, as defined by the authorities empowered to separate elven culture from human corruption, or... well, no known elven refugees disagreed. And there are always dissenters.

 

That' assuming far too much. A lack of known dissident refugees isn't a lack of dissidents, but a lack of sources mentioning them. It would be like assuming that there weren't dissidents in Tevinter before Dorian appeared, since until now no dissident was mentioned. Not to talk about mixing a xenophobic isolationist state with a police state. Orzammar is the first, the Qunari are the second. As you can guess, I think that Orzammar is a good example of what we could expect of the Dales and/or Arlathan.

 

Thanks.

 

And tbh Cullen was possibly going to be that character's LI. A Chantry Templar and a Dalish Mage is the ultimate opposite worlds thing, and he does use a one handed sword like Sokka.

 

See? The signs are already there! It's meant to happen! XD Now, if only Cullen had a boomerang...

[Dean_the_Young]

That' assuming far too much. A lack of known dissident refugees isn't a lack of dissidents, but a lack of sources mentioning them. It would be like assuming that there weren't dissidents in Tevinter before Dorian appeared, since until now no dissident was mentioned. Not to talk about mixing a xenophobic isolationist state with a police state. Orzammar is the first, the Qunari are the second. As you can guess, I think that Orzammar is a good example of what we could expect of the Dales and/or Arlathan.

 

Unlike the sources we have of Tevinter, which do establish dissident movements and rebellions of a semi-regular basis, the sources we have of the Dales specifically include a lack of information of what goes inside it. In cases of extremely insular societies, knowledge about their workings comes from the dissidents and exiles who flee them: no knowledge generally corresponds to extremely few exiles. This can be because few people want to leave, or few people are able to leave.

 

Of the three you mention, the Qunari are likely the most relevant example of what the Dales might have been like, and even then we have a lore-significant exile population of dissidents and former-Qunari in the Tal-Vashoth. Orzammar and the Tevinter are both far less secretive societies and have well established dissident groups (that often correspond with leaving the group): Orzammar politics have helped feed a small but significant population of surface dwarves who even retain trading contacts with the city, and Tevinter both had regular slave rebellions and was never insular at all, having trade contacts and close relations with the Dwarves.

 

But unlike Orzammar, Tevinter, and even the Qunari, the Dalish were so reclusive that they wouldn't even entertain trade contacts. They were deliberately creating and seeking to preserve a state of affairs that was an effective and total social isolation in both directions. And they kept a security apparatus and extensive border guard that could not only prevent small-scale intrustions and snooping on a scale to systematically gather information, but one robust enough to sack settlements as well. They had, in other words, the means to keep the outside out... and the inside in.

 

Which do you think is more likely: that the Dales kept a society in which anyone was free to leave, but so few chose to that human scholars only mention dark but undetermined rumors nearly a millenia later? Or that the same border guards that kept humans out also kept elves in?

 

I'd be interested in what historical analog to the Dalish seclusion and cultural purity efforts makes you think the answer you do.  Like I said, I'd be more surprised at the former than the later.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There isn't a whole lot of information revealed to the audience about the Dales in general. You can't really assume all that much about what it was like or that the lack of information we do have comes with sinister connotations.

[Dean_the_Young]

There isn't a whole lot of information revealed to the audience about the Dales in general. You can't really assume all that much about what it was like or that the lack of information we do have comes with sinister connotations.

 

It's THE Dragon Age Setting- everything and everyone comes with sinister connotations. It's virtually a requirement of the setting that every major faction or region or nation have a dark underbelly for pain and misery.

 

(And isn't that just a morbid thing to laugh at?)

 

As for why I suspect the racially-culturally xenophobic and extremely insular Dales were authoritarian... well, that's because I've never seen or read about a xenophobic and extremely insular society that wasn't heavily slanted towards authoritarianism. Cloistered social groupings are not natural states of being:  they have to be enforced and use coercive measures to keep the separation between inside and outside. That cultural purity groups also frequently use a wide variety of coercive norms to enforce proper adherence is just a reinforcing aspect.

[Dean_the_Young]

That isn't the case at all with them. It's not like they're some cult or militia. It's one thing to not like the Dalish, but try not to invent things to do it. Just say you don't like them and be done with it. They bonded by one saying "Never again shall we submit". Their culture revolves around the dislike of being controlled. Fat chance they are authoritarians.

And as much as swear to protect their Keepers, they'll hunt them down and kill them too if the mage goes awry.

 

Seems to me their basic structure is simply "da'len" and "hahren". Elder and younger.

 

'All of them'? What are you talking about?
 

I'm not talking about the Dalish. I was talking about the Dales. Two significantly different societies with significantly different practices and means and abilities of social control and influence. The Dalish couldn't do what the Dales did if they tried, which is in and of itself a significant grounds for cultural departure even ignorring the Dalish's own cultural splintering via different tribal practices and policies.

 

 

As for this-

 

 

Their culture revolves around the dislike of being controlled. Fat chance they are authoritarians.

 

I laughed. Then I remember the Russian revolution, and I cried.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well technically Shartan was their first leader but he perished before the Long Walk. Not that I necessarily disagree with your larger point though.

[Dean_the_Young]

I could see you arguing that for Arlathan, but not even the Dales. This is a society first led by Shartan and Andraste and knew little about Arlathan. They were just slaves trying to rebuild what sh*tty lives they had left. And what we know of the Dalish now is passed on from them specifically. If they were so bad, it would have at least rubbed off on contemporary Dalish somewhat. I don't think it has. I just don't see it.

 

We have a sad and terrible history of victimized and oppressed peoples, when given the chance to build their own nations, turning on and victimizing and oppressing their own. It is, if anything, one of the most common trends of the decolonization period. Freed slaves trying to rebuild shitty lives are freed slaves with a weak or nonexistent state. People with weak or nonexistent states are often at the most risk to the growth of an authoritarian regime. Because they had so little, it can promise them so much: safety, security, a return to glory in exchange for their following.

 

As for the connection between the Dalish and the Dales, at this point it has always been more inspirational than practical. We don't know what the Dales were precisely, but we know many of the things they were not: nomadic tribes facing cultural splintering for a lack of unity in policy and views, and whose cultural game plan is to stay out of the way of humans and hope they all kill each other off.

 

As for what the Dalish kept... well, religious myths is likely, but what the Dalish feel was bad and what was actually bad can easily be two different things. Self-destructive xenophobia towards humans can easily be a trait to survive the destruction of the Dales.

 

 

 

 

If you want to imagine they're like the USSR, go for it. I guess. It's impossible to talk to you then. That's too big of a jump for me.

 

 

I think you missed the historical irony with your statement. The Russian Revolution was a revolution against extreme authoritarianism. It created, if anything, an even more extreme and oppressive authoritarianism that constantly validated itself and villified the enemies in the revolutionary context. What you revolt against is not necessarily what will be your antithesis.

 

I wasn't saying the Dales were like the USSR. I was laughing and crying at your reasoning, which has too many counter-examples to count.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

See? The signs are already there! It's meant to happen! XD Now, if only Cullen had a boomerang...

The only other option may be Solas if he is like Aang, since those two at one point were supposed to be love interests(hence her being his vision in the swamp) but then they decided to stick with Aang/Katara.