138 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Not sure how you can gauge the mortality rate of the other cycles.  I think the number I mentioned is probably about accurate for the lowest estimate, give or take a hundred, and there's no telling how many smaller ships they've got stashed away. 

 

Of course, ME3 blew the possibilities out of the water by canonizing that the Leviathan of Dis was a Reaper, something that was frequently speculated among the fanbase. 

How many capital reapers do you think the Protheans killed? My guess is that at least one is a safe guess. 

Because of all of this, ME3 created another problem. It was too wishy-washy for how strong the Reapers were. It isn't clear.

However, I can't fault the writers for this. People expected to fight the Reapers directly. The common-sense thing for making the game was to fight the Reapers directly. But, it is incredibly hard to write a Individual v. Collective conflict as the central crisis, especially when it's so lopsided. The hole was dug and it would've been hard not to have dug it in the past. While ME had Saren as the antagonist, and ME2 had the Collectors, ME3 had a supposedly unbeatable enemy. 

If ME2 had done its job as a part 2 to a trilogy, then ME3 would've been a lot better. 

[AlanC9]

Because of all of this, ME3 created another problem. It was too wishy-washy for how strong the Reapers were. It isn't clear.

It isn't? You sure the unclarity isn't just people projecting their expectations onto a game that never supported them?

However, I can't fault the writers for this. People expected to fight the Reapers directly. The common-sense thing for making the game was to fight the Reapers directly. But, it is incredibly hard to write a Individual v. Collective conflict as the central crisis, especially when it's so lopsided. The hole was dug and it would've been hard not to have dug it in the past. While ME had Saren as the antagonist, and ME2 had the Collectors, ME3 had a supposedly unbeatable enemy. 

If ME2 had done its job as a part 2 to a trilogy, then ME3 would've been a lot better.

This depends on what you think ME2's job was, doesn't it? Not defending ME2, but it doesn't have much to do with this topic. The Reaper War was never going to be won by anything but Shepard fighting his way to the place where he can hit a Magic Win Button, just as the Kilrathi War was never going to be won by anything other than Blair blowing up something in his starfighter.

[dreamgazer]

How many capital reapers do you think the Protheans killed? My guess is that at least one is a safe guess. 

 

Sure.  Some cycles might have knocked out more than a few, some might have success with only one or two, while others---I'm willing to bet it's the lion's share---might not have knocked out any at all.  One civilization's technological apex isn't like the other. That's why I'd be willing to work with about 100 or so net capital ship losses across 37m years,  and that's assuming they don't try and make up for the losses with double-duty creation (perhaps with another species who gets "promoted" from Destroyer to Capital creation to offset a loss, which would be logical). 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well it's debatable if we fought the Reapers here.  Or did we flail ineffectively at them until their "guiding intelligence" decided to offer a suicide pact to Shepard?

 

Reapers invaded? Check.

Galaxy fired upon them? Check.

Reapers lost casualties? Check.

Galaxy lost casualties? Check.

Buildings were wrecked? Check.

Someone lost and someone won? Check.

 

This is seeming more like a war then the Falkland islands war was, so yeah I think it counts as a war.

[AlanC9]

Sure.  Some cycles might have knocked out more than a few, some might have success with only one or two, while others---I'm willing to bet it's the lion's share---might not have knocked out any at all.  One civilization's technological apex isn't like the other. That's why I'd be willing to work with about 100 or so net capital ship losses across 37m years,  and that's assuming they don't try and make up for the losses with double-duty creation (perhaps with another species who gets "promoted" from Destroyer to Capital creation to offset a loss, which would be logical).

Also, the timing of the cycles is wholly at the Reapers' discretion. If they ever feel that their margin of victory is getting a bit thin, they can start the next 15 or 20 cycles before the organics develop (insert threshold tech here).

(Best not to think about this too hard, because it's not quite clear why the Reapers ever wait as long as they typically do. )

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Sure.  Some cycles might have knocked out more than a few, some might have success with only one or two, while others---I'm willing to bet it's the lion's share---might not have knocked out any at all.  One civilization's technological apex isn't like the other. That's why I'd be willing to work with about 100 or so net capital ship losses across 37m years,  and that's assuming they don't try and make up for the losses with double-duty creation (perhaps with another species who gets "promoted" from Destroyer to Capital creation to offset a loss, which would be logical). 

Protheans: Galaxy spanning empire, more technologically advanced than the modern cycle. 

I'd say they killed as many as the modern cycle. They didn't have access to the relays, otherwise I bet they would have killed a lot more.

[TurianRebel212]

So, OP, you been hearing any hums recently and having dreams of burning kids with oily shadows and stuff????

[TurianRebel212]

Also, there are 10,000 or so Sovereign Class Reapers, give or take. 

 

 

But I totally sure we can take em......

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Also, there are 10,000 or so Sovereign Class Reapers, give or take. 

 

 

But I totally sure we can take em......

Any proof of this? Whatsoever? I never saw any. 

I count 79 Reapers in space over Earth. For the planet "bearing the brunt" of the reaper attack, that seems like a low number. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

a joke ? Come on we needed the crucible to defeat them. It was the only way to defeat the reapers. The only way ! We were lucky that we found plans for the crucible. Shepard mentioned that also.

 

The Reapers were hilariously overpowered and poorly written. That's how they're a joke. It turns into a game-breaker.

[Farangbaa]

Also, the timing of the cycles is wholly at the Reapers' discretion. If they ever feel that their margin of victory is getting a bit thin, they can start the next 15 or 20 cycles before the organics develop (insert threshold tech here).

(Best not to think about this too hard, because it's not quite clear why the Reapers ever wait as long as they typically do. )

 

Bear in mind that this is not a typical cycle. There's a big chance Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel before the Geth awoke.

 

Any proof of this? Whatsoever? I never saw any. 

I count 79 Reapers in space over Earth. For the planet "bearing the brunt" of the reaper attack, that seems like a low number. 

 

Please, don't use cutscenes for this. Use the Codex. Cutscenes are horrible

[78stonewobble]

Any proof of this? Whatsoever? I never saw any. 

I count 79 Reapers in space over Earth. For the planet "bearing the brunt" of the reaper attack, that seems like a low number. 

 

We don't know how many reapers there are for sure. 

 

However, the reapers have been around for approximately 2,2 billion years and reaps every 50.000 years (Though I agree it's silly to assume that it's exactly 50.000 years in between). 

 

At every reaping, they could construct 0, 1 or more reapers (full capital ships, destroyers and/or both). Or they could lose 0, 1 or more... 

 

If we assume that it all averages out to 1 reaper added per cycle, it adds up to 44.000 reapers. 

 

Again, we don't know for sure, but the numbers could easily be in the tens of thousands range. 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Please, don't use cutscenes for this. Use the Codex. Cutscenes are horrible

I would, but there's nothing in the codex for this. But yes, they are horrible. 

 

We don't know how many reapers there are for sure. 

 

However, the reapers have been around for approximately 2,2 billion years and reaps every 50.000 years (Though I agree it's silly to assume that it's exactly 50.000 years in between). 

 

At every reaping, they could construct 0, 1 or more reapers (full capital ships, destroyers and/or both). Or they could lose 0, 1 or more... 

 

If we assume that it all averages out to 1 reaper added per cycle, it adds up to 44.000 reapers. 

 

Again, we don't know for sure, but the numbers could easily be in the tens of thousands range. 

The oldest reaper age is nearly a billion years, from the Leviathan of Dis. 

They construct one capital-class reaper every cycle. There is no way that they would lose any less than five. No matter what. The Turians alone killed a lot of them. 

Really, the Reapers are incredibly poorly written. It's almost as if each game was written separately without any thought to narrative cohesiveness, trilogy formatting, or solid lore.  

[Farangbaa]

That they construct one capital-class reaper per cycle is pure speculation though, no one has ever counted the Reapers at the start of the war, lived through the cycle and counted them again in the next. (except the Thorian... which you kill by default, and the Leviathan)

 

Available information suggests that a single race is harvested during each cycle to produce Reaper Capital Ships; it appears that other space-faring races harvested during the cycle are used to produce Destroyer-class Reapers. Exactly how or why this distinction is made is unknown.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

That they construct one capital-class reaper per cycle is pure speculation though, no one has ever counted the Reapers at the start of the war, lived through the cycle and counted them again in the next. (except the Thorian... which you kill by default, and the Leviathan)

 

Available information suggests that a single race is harvested during each cycle to produce Reaper Capital Ships; it appears that other space-faring races harvested during the cycle are used to produce Destroyer-class Reapers. Exactly how or why this distinction is made is unknown.

When there is evidence pointing one way, and none the other, you go the way with evidence. 

[Farangbaa]

When there is evidence pointing one way, and none the other, you go the way with evidence. 

 

Oh, I just saw that the line I was quoting explicitly says 'Reaper Capital Ships', so we're both wrong

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Any proof of this? Whatsoever? I never saw any. 

I count 79 Reapers in space over Earth. For the planet "bearing the brunt" of the reaper attack, that seems like a low number. 

 

It's actually notionally higher. Consider that, if looking at the evidence for the Reapers being at least one billion years old (approximated of course) and at least one large Reaper ala Sovereign every 50,000 years, you're looking at at least 20,000 full-size Reapers, and a presumably much higher number of smaller ones.

[78stonewobble]

I would, but there's nothing in the codex for this. But yes, they are horrible. 

 

The oldest reaper age is nearly a billion years, from the Leviathan of Dis. 

They construct one capital-class reaper every cycle. There is no way that they would lose any less than five. No matter what. The Turians alone killed a lot of them. 

Really, the Reapers are incredibly poorly written. It's almost as if each game was written separately without any thought to narrative cohesiveness, trilogy formatting, or solid lore.  

 

I could have sworn, that somewhere in leviathan, they mention the creation of the catalyst and the first reaper(s?) are taking place atleast 2 billion years ago, but I might be mistaken. 

 

It's not explicitly stated that all 44000 cycles (if they're 2,2 billion years old), 20.000 cycles (if only 1 billion years old) lead to the creation of exactly one Reaper. Whether all cycles are exactly 50.000 years apart. Or whether the word Reaper exclusively refers to their capital ship class, rather than also including the smaller destroyers and/or footsoldiers. Ie. in some contexts reaper refers to footsoldiers too...

 

 

I don't quite agree that any of this is badly written, since I think it's somewhat irrelevant. Or put in another way. This isn't the part about the reapers that trouble me. 

[Iakus]

It's actually notionally higher. Consider that, if looking at the evidence for the Reapers being at least one billion years old (approximated of course) and at least one large Reaper ala Sovereign every 50,000 years, you're looking at at least 20,000 full-size Reapers, and a presumably much higher number of smaller ones.

 

Yeah, as if making them so massively overpowered wasn't bad enough.

 

An enemy with 20,000+ warships of any kind plus support  could conquer the galaxy even without being Eldritch Abominations.

 

This, though, was like creating a Blight where every darkspawn was an archdemon.

[andy6915]

Yeah, as if making them so massively overpowered wasn't bad enough.
 
An enemy with 20,000+ warships of any kind plus support  could conquer the galaxy even without being Eldritch Abominations.
 
This, though, was like creating a Blight where every darkspawn was an archdemon.

Well it does come down to perspective. A blight of nothing but archdemons would be unbeatable for the Dragon Age universe, but putting that same force into another fiction could get a whole different outcome. How well would that blight of archedemons works out if they were in Mass Effect where turning a planet into a glass parking lot is easy? How well would that blight last in the Asura's Wrath universe where the end-boss chucks full sized (realistically sized) stars at you and at one point an entire planet is also thrown at you and you have to break all the way through it while flying?
 
The Reapers are only unbeatable in some fictions. Put them in others with more overpowered characters, and you could have them being beaten by guys flying around throwing energy blasts and punching with enough force to break Harbingers head open in one hit.

[Farangbaa]

I can't believe people frown upon the reapers being unbeatable. That's one of the few things that's consistent over every part of the series

[Iakus]

Well it does come down to perspective. A blight of nothing but archdemons would be unbeatable for the Dragon Age universe, but putting that same force into another fiction could get a whole different outcome. How well would that blight of archedemons works out if they were in Mass Effect where turning a planet into a glass parking lot is easy? How well would that blight last in the Asura's Wrath universe where the end-boss chucks full sized (realistically sized) stars at you and at one point an entire planet is also thrown at you and you have to break all the way through it while flying?
 
The Reapers are only unbeatable in some fictions. Put them in others with more overpowered characters, and you could have them being beaten by guys flying around throwing energy blasts and punching with enough force to break Harbingers head open in one hit.

Well, that's just it.  In the Mass Effect universe, a fleet that size with anything close to parity with the tech level of the Council racews could steam roll over just about anybody.

 

Give them the tech level of the Reapers and that's just plain overkill.

 

Because Mass Effect doesn't have theguys with enegy blasts or super-strength.  Thus we needed some other space magic, along with the cooperation of the Reapers themselves, to beat them.

[KaiserShep]

I can't believe people frown upon the reapers being unbeatable. That's one of the few things that's consistent over every part of the series

 

 I'm just a wee bit surprised it doesn't go so far as to say that the reapers just remotely hack reactors left and right, making them melt down, kittens spontaneously combust and clouds of reaper nanites spread over cemeteries, raising the huskified dead.

[Farangbaa]

 I'm just a wee bit surprised it doesn't go so far as to say that the reapers just remotely hack reactors left and right, making them melt down, kittens spontaneously combust and clouds of reaper nanites spread over cemeteries, raising the huskified dead.

 

The Reapers take into consideration it's a video game

[78stonewobble]

I don't think it's too incredulous. 

 

What is a reaper? 

 

A warship, somewhat larger than a dreadnought, somewhat faster FTL (a dreadnought has that too), a somewhat powerfull main weapon (scaled up thanix cannon or laser?) and a big biological or techno/biological computer inside. Oh yeah and there are many of them. 

 

Presumably you could build an equally capable human ship, by scaling up the various technologies involved in a dreadnought and/or other technologies available and with enough time (x billions of years) you could certainly build enough to beat the reapers. 

 

The only problem in this arms race of technology, but mostly numbers, is time. X billions of years of it, as a headstart to the reapers. 

 

It doesn't seem too incredulous considering that and it seemed pretty obvious throughout the entire series that to overcome that would require some kind of "magic bullet".

 

Still, it would have been nice to see a wee bit more of the whole point of uniting the fleets and armies. Everyone likes space combat and splosions...