73 réponses à ce sujet

[Eveangaline]

Would they find hornless ogres scarier?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think this applies to other races. They find Kossith Qunari intimidating because they have become associated with the much feared Ben-Hassrath.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

I don't think this applies to other races. They find Kossith Qunari intimidating because they have become associated with the much feared Ben-Hassrath.

 

So is there a reason most but not all Ben-Hassrath are hornless?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think hornless Qunari are believed to be destined for great things or something.

[Kirikou]

Honestly guys the wiki exists for situations like this.

Hornlessness is a rare genetic variation in Qunari, akin to red hair in humans. Those born without horns are considered special and are often given prestigious roles in Qunari society such as a Ben-Hassrath or an envoy to the other races.[6] Sten, who became a companion of the Warden as a soldier of the Beresaad, falls into this category. Culturally, Qunari associate not having horns with being imposing or scary, and because of this Tal-Vashoth often decide to remove their own horns.[7] Likewise, Saarebas, the Qunari mages, have their horns removed to warn of their danger.

[mikeymoonshine]

Most but not all Ben-Hassrath are hornless? And most importantly not all Hornless are Ben-Hassrath? I don't accept the reason because there is still no logic to it, it would be like saying Albinos are intimidating because you know an Albino who is a cop, I would like to think the writers at Bioware could give a better reason than that.

 

Have you ever spent any time around people? People very easily associate one thing with another if there is a correlation. If you are a Qunari most hornless Qunari are scary religious enforcers and you see a hornless Qunari you are very likely to think of a scary religious enforcer when you see them. That's a perfectly understandable response to have. The reasoning behind the idea is perfectly logical. 

 

and that's a false comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

Even among people who hate mice and spiders I doubt you will find anyone who would call them intimidating, disgusting maybe but not intimidating.

 

It's a rather meaningless distinction to make. To be intimidating you also have to be scary and as I demonstrated people can be scared by things that aren't necessarily that dangerous. So it's not really a stretch to assume a hornless grey giant could intimidate a grey giant with horns under the right circumstances. 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

Have you ever spent any time around people? People very easily associate one thing with another if there is a correlation. If you are a Qunari most hornless Qunari are scary religious enforcers and you see a hornless Qunari you are very likely to think of a scary religious enforcer when you see them. That's a perfectly understandable response to have. The reasoning behind the idea is perfectly logical.

 

Sten himself disagrees.

 

"People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'The elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty.'"

[mikeymoonshine]

Sten himself disagrees.

 

"People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'The elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty.'"

 

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. 

 

The fact that common behaviors exist amongst humans (and other races) does not negate that fact so that fact is completely irrelevant. I didn't try to summarize anyone, I simply pointed out a behavior that humans exhibit. 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. 

 

The fact that common behaviors exist amongst humans (and other races) does not negate that fact so that fact is completely irrelevant. I didn't try to summarize anyone, I simply pointed out a behavior that humans exhibit. 

 

So are Qunari intimidated by humans? Do the Qunari associate humans with the Ben-Hassrath? If the Qunari find hornlessness intimidating then why dont they find the rest of the races in Thedas intimidating? I do not deny that humans aren't guilty of stereotyping however I still find your reasoning for why the Qunari consider hornlessness intimidating stupid, the whole argument hinges off the flimsy argument that some (but not all) of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless while ignoring that, A) not all the Ben-Hassrath are hornless, B( not all hornless are Ben-Hassrath, and, C) Being hornless is a trait more commonly associated with races they find inferior.

[ShawDawg94]

From what I can see a lot of the lore behind the Dragon Age universe is written without any real rhyme or reason, basically what they have done is take popular fantasy tropes and as a substitute for creativity done the opposite for no real reason other than to subvert expectations, most medieval fantasy settings are located in the Northern Hemisphere while Dragon Age is located in the Southern Hemisphere, Elves are usually depicted as Immortal and among the most respected races in their respective universe however in Dragon Age they are bottom feeders and servants, ect.

 

So Thedas being on the southern hemisphere is substituting creativity?

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

So Thedas being on the southern hemisphere is substituting creativity?

 

There is nothing wrong with a fantasy continent being placed in the southern hemisphere however there is nothing really creative about it either. I get the feeling the decision to do this was made merely to subvert the expectation that most medieval fantasy stories happen in the northern hemisphere and when your only real creative input when creating a fantasy universe is to take what everyone else has done and merely do the opposite on certain things I am not sure you are trying all that hard.

[mikeymoonshine]

So are Qunari intimidated by humans? Do the Qunari associate humans with the Ben-Hassrath? If the Qunari find hornlessness intimidating then why dont they find the rest of the races in Thedas intimidating? I do not deny that humans aren't guilty of stereotyping however I still find your reasoning for why the Qunari consider hornlessness intimidating stupid, the whole argument hinges off the flimsy argument that some (but not all) of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless while ignoring that, A) not all the Ben-Hassrath are hornless, B( not all hornless are Ben-Hassrath, and, C) Being hornless is a trait more commonly associated with races they find inferior.

 

Who said the Qunari find hornlessness intimidating? They find hornless qunari intimidating because most of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari, more correctly they generally find them more intimidating than other Qunari. The rest of the races in Thedas aren't associated with religious enforcers who's job it is to indoctrinate, re-educate and even sometimes kill people who step out of line. 

 

Again, i never said they find hornlessness intimidating. 

 

"the whole argument hinges off the flimsy argument that some (but not all) of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless"

 

Flimsy because you say so? Oh and it's most of them not some of them. 

 

A: Most are and we have already discussed how people stereotype based on correlation. 

B: But they are generally given important positions and important people are generally more intimidating that people who are not important. Again, it's correlation. 

C: You are basing your entire response on something nobody ever argued. 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

Who said the Qunari find hornlessness intimidating? They find hornless qunari intimidating because most of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari, more correctly they generally find them more intimidating than other Qunari. The rest of the races in Thedas aren't associated with religious enforcers who's job it is to indoctrinate, re-educate and even sometimes kill people who step out of line.

 

But they are hornless and if I hadn't been told Sten was a Qunari I would have just assumed he was a tall human, so if the Qunari are intimidated by other Qunari that look like humans why aren't they intimidated by humans? 

 

Flimsy because you say so?

 

Logical because you say so? I can play that game too, but no it is flimsy because it hinges on the idea that despite the fact that most other hornless humanoid creatures aren't considered intimidating and the fact that being hornless is not a pre-requisite for being Ben-Hassrath and that there are a lot of hornless Qunari that arent Ben-Hassrath they just happened to ignore all this and associate "hornlessness" with "scary religious enforcer", there is just too much to ignore for this assertion to be taken seriously.

[mikeymoonshine]

But they are hornless and if I hadn't been told Sten was a Qunari I would have just assumed he was a tall human, so if the Qunari are intimidated by other Qunari that look like humans why aren't they intimidated by humans? 

 

 

That's terrible logic, the way Sten looked in Origins is entirely a result of the engine. Also him looking "just like a tall human" is just your opinion. Everyone in Lothering and many others in the game found him to be a big, scary, intimidating, monster. 

 

 

 

Logical because you say so? I can play that game too, 

 

I explained the logic behind it, as have many other people. You rejected it as flimsy and gave no reason, you are the only one playing games.

 

 

 but no it is flimsy because it hinges on the idea that despite the fact that most other hornless humanoid creatures aren't considered intimidating 

 

Hornless qunari! not Hornlessness in general, that would be stupid. I already clarified this, why are you being so disingenuous? 

 

and the fact that being hornless is not a pre-requisite for being Ben-Hassrath and that there are a lot of hornless Qunari that arent Ben-Hassrath 

 

But MOST of them are Ben-Hassrath and once again this is because people often stereotype due to correlation. If you don't agree with that then fine but you are ignoring reality and calling it stupid.  

 

 

they just happened to ignore all this and associate "hornlessness" with "scary religious enforcer", there is just too much to ignore for this assertion to be taken seriously.

 

You are the only one that is ignoring anything. You are ignoring the fact that NOBODY associates hornlessness with "scary religious enforcers" they associate hornless qunari with them because most Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari. 

[ShawDawg94]

There is nothing wrong with a fantasy continent being placed in the southern hemisphere however there is nothing really creative about it either. I get the feeling the decision to do this was made merely to subvert the expectation that most medieval fantasy stories happen in the northern hemisphere and when your only real creative input when creating a fantasy universe is to take what everyone else has done and merely do the opposite on certain things I am not sure you are trying all that hard.

 

It was my understanding that the Dragon Age world was created to be a 'what if this were real' scenario. The elves being servants is more of a take on what would happen if humans and elves really had to co-exist rather than a simple "lets do the opposite of what everyone else is doing". It's not doing it oppositely, its doing it differently. As for Thedas being on the southern hemisphere, there's not a lot of options. Your either going to be doing what everyone else is doing or your going to be doing the opposite.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

That's terrible logic, the way Sten looked in Origins is entirely a result of the engine. Also him looking "just like a tall human" is just your opinion. Everyone in Lothering and many others in the game found him to be a big, scary, intimidating, monster. 

 

That is because he was a "big, scary, intimidating, monster" if we were to take the Mountain from A song of Ice and Fire I am sure they would consider him a "big, scary, intimidating, monster" too despite the fact that he is clearly human, it has more to do with size than race.

 

Also how he looked was the engines fault? Was the engine unable to produce humanoid creatures with features that clearly distinguish them from humans? How Sten looked was mostly down to the character artists and 3D modelers.

 

I explained the logic behind it, as have many other people. You rejected it as flimsy and gave no reason, you are the only one playing games.

 

I gave plenty of reason as to why your logic is flimsy, it is not my fault you choose to ignore it

 

Hornless qunari! not Hornlessness in general, that would be stupid. I already clarified this, why are you being so disingenuous? 

 

Yeah I saw that but I still dont see how a hornless Qunari looks any different from a big beefy human, if Qunari are so intimidated by hornless Qunari I still dont see why they wouldn't be intimidated by a big beefy human or why they wouldn't associate a hornless Qunari with a big beefy human, one would think that it would be far more logical for anyone to associate a hornless qunari with a big beefy human than a scary religious enforcer.

 

But MOST of them are Ben-Hassrath and once again this is because people often stereotype due to correlation. If you don't agree with that then fine but you are ignoring reality and calling it stupid.  

 

In a fictional universe reality is whatever you write it to be, however if you want your reality to be taken seriously it needs the essence of believability and I have a hard time believing that in a world full of squishy no-horns a race of horned giants for some reason got it into their heads that having no horns is intimidating.  

 

 

You are the only one that is ignoring anything. You are ignoring the fact that NOBODY associates hornlessness with "scary religious enforcers" they associate hornless qunari with them because most Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari. 

 

Just because I reject your ridiculous assertions doesn't mean I am ignoring them, I have read what you have had to say and find your arguments flimsy.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

It was my understanding that the Dragon Age world was created to be a 'what if this were real' scenario. The elves being servants is more of a take on what would happen if humans and elves really had to co-exist rather than a simple "lets do the opposite of what everyone else is doing". It's not doing it oppositely, its doing it differently. 

 

If that was their goal then the Witcher did it already 10x better, in the Witcher universe you can see a clear line of evolution of how the world and its various races and nations came to be in the positions they are in using a more realistic and less idealistic take on human nature and events. In Dragon Age it looks more like it was a conscious decision to make the Elves the downtrodden oppressed race and how they ended up in that position was more of an afterthought.

 

As for Thedas being on the southern hemisphere, there's not a lot of options. Your either going to be doing what everyone else is doing or your going to be doing the opposite.

 

I have no problem with Thedas being in the southern hemisphere, just making an observation that there is nothing really creative about it either.

[tmp7704]

Sten himself disagrees.
 
"People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'The elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty.'"

But by your own (and Sten's) logic, just because Sten, an individual, holds that view, it doesn't mean it's universal attitude held by all -or even the majority-- of the qunari. There may be lot of them who do readily stereotype. Just like it happens with humans (#notallhumans stereotype, but plenty of them do)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So are Qunari intimidated by humans? Do the Qunari associate humans with the Ben-Hassrath? If the Qunari find hornlessness intimidating then why dont they find the rest of the races in Thedas intimidating? I do not deny that humans aren't guilty of stereotyping however I still find your reasoning for why the Qunari consider hornlessness intimidating stupid, the whole argument hinges off the flimsy argument that some (but not all) of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless while ignoring that, A) not all the Ben-Hassrath are hornless, B( not all hornless are Ben-Hassrath, and, C) Being hornless is a trait more commonly associated with races they find inferior.

 

No. Did you read what I said? Qunari don't find the general notion of not having horns intimidating. They find it intimidating on Kossith Qunari because Kossith Qunari are associated with the Ben-Hassrath. Also they don't find other races inferior. They find people not of the Qun inferior.

[Samahl]

So are Qunari intimidated by humans? Do the Qunari associate humans with the Ben-Hassrath? If the Qunari find hornlessness intimidating then why dont they find the rest of the races in Thedas intimidating? I do not deny that humans aren't guilty of stereotyping however I still find your reasoning for why the Qunari consider hornlessness intimidating stupid, the whole argument hinges off the flimsy argument that some (but not all) of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless while ignoring that, A) not all the Ben-Hassrath are hornless, B( not all hornless are Ben-Hassrath, and, C) Being hornless is a trait more commonly associated with races they find inferior.

But they don't even see other races on the same level as qunari either, or at least, non-viddathari i,e, most everyone. The same things that are intimidating on one race/species need not be intimidating on others.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well if you read a few posts up someone has already pointed out that most of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless. Ben-Hassraths are like religious enforcers/police. There is a logical reason, you are just not accepting it because you have decided horns are scarier than no horns. 

 

As to your butterfly point. Many people find mice and spiders (among other things) scary and intimidating, fear is not always rational or based on how formidable the thing you are afraid of actually is. 

 

Honestly if everyone had horns, then the people who didn't have horns would most likely be precieved similarly to those who have horns, as weirdos who look strange and have that exotic intimidation factor to them.

 

Also, most qunari don't speak thedesian, or can't speak it well, and get embarrased by this fact. They don' know how to properly act around them, and so are intimidated by the prospect of meeting them.

 

This was information I got from the wiki, it may be wrong, but I think theres so merit to there being a social anxiety around interacting with those of another group within the qunari, especially with how ordered their society is for everyone to be the same.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To answer the topic, no the Qunari don't see the other races as intimidating.

[Lurklen]

Yes the qunari find the other races intimidating. It doesn't have to do with their horns though( That said when your whole race has horns, except for certain people who are then placed into a position of authority do to their being hornless, you might find it unsettling at first to be around an entire people who do not. Like if one of us were to suddenly go to a place where no one had noses. Scary? Not really but certainly weird.) it has more to do with them thinking the rest of the world is teetering on the brink of madness and widespread destruction.

 

 From their perspective the entire world apart from them is managed by the whims and graces of a multitude of violent petty children. Who allow mages to roam practically free and then quail in the face of the inevitable problems that arise. Who place the workings of the world at the feet of some invisible spirit who governs their lives(the Maker, Andraste, elven gods etc..) and who have no way of ordering themselves for the betterment of the whole aside from murdering those who possess what they want or passing responsibility down to their children. Now they do have some major points, the rest of the world has been in a state of chaos for the better part of a century at this point while Qunari lands have been at relative peace(As far as we know.) though their philosophy is just as full of weird assumptions and crazy leaps of logic as any of the other races. So the reasons for that peace might just be that they have more of a strangle hold on their lands.

 

 That is part of why they want to spread the qun. They see the rest of the world as dangerous, like they were before they found their "path". Which really makes me wonder just how nuts their people were before the qun.