73 réponses à ce sujet

[Googleness]

qunary.... weird question...

trying to hold myself...

 

 

 

 

 

 

can't.

 

 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

No. Did you read what I said?

 

Yes and I gave several reasons as to why the argument is flimsy, perhaps you should read them.

[mikeymoonshine]

Continuing this because I am bored. 

That is because he was a "big, scary, intimidating, monster" if we were to take the Mountain from A song of Ice and Fire I am sure they would consider him a "big, scary, intimidating, monster" too despite the fact that he is clearly human, it has more to do with size than race.

 

Also how he looked was the engines fault? Was the engine unable to produce humanoid creatures with features that clearly distinguish them from humans? How Sten looked was mostly down to the character artists and 3D modelers.

 

I seem to remeber Liandra in DA2 describing Sten as a terrifying "creature". Anyway, I was generalizing with my engine comment. The point is the Qunari are not meant to look like tall humans. If Sten did in the game that's just because his design did not fit the lore well enough. This was fixed in DA2. Hornless Qunari don't look like humans. 

 

 

 

I gave plenty of reason as to why your logic is flimsy, it is not my fault you choose to ignore it

 

Not in that comment you didn't, you just stated that it was flimsy. I also haven't ignored any of your arguments and responded to all of them. You actually haven't responded to all of mine so I find that comment a bit hypocritical, but whatever I guess. 

 

Also your reasoning was flimsy and downright ridiculous at times as I demonstrated to you. 

 

 

Yeah I saw that but I still dont see how a hornless Qunari looks any different from a big beefy human, if Qunari are so intimidated by hornless Qunari I still dont see why they wouldn't be intimidated by a big beefy human or why they wouldn't associate a hornless Qunari with a big beefy human, one would think that it would be far more logical for anyone to associate a hornless qunari with a big beefy human than a scary religious enforcer.

 

Well they are taller, more muscular, they have grey skin (mostly) and completely different facial structure. If you don't see the difference then fine bnut everyone else does. 

 

A human is not a qunari, Qunari can tell the difference between a human and a qunari. They associate hornless qunari with Ben- Hassrath because most Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari. It's not because of how one thing looks like the other thing or anything silly like that, it's a cultural association based on correlation. 

 

No, nobody except you would think that is far more logical because it is completely ridiculous

 

 

In a fictional universe reality is whatever you write it to be, however if you want your reality to be taken seriously it needs the essence of believability 

 

Why do you think I brought this up to begin with? In the real world people stereotype based on correlation so the fact that it also happens in a fictional world is not it is unbelievable, even if you say it is. 

 

 I have a hard time believing that in a world full of squishy no-horns a race of horned giants for some reason got it into their heads that having no horns is intimidating.  

 

This all seems like it's more about you than anything else. You decided horns are scarier than no horns. You stubbornly stick to the idea that this is always true and that nobody not even fictional beings in a fictional world could possibly disagree with you on that. 

 

It's not really the horns that are the issue. Hornless Qunari are considered special, if I was unfortunate enough to be arguing from your position this is the part I would attack btw. Because they are seen as special they are given special jobs, many are Ben-Hassrath for example. Ben-Hassrath are scary and intimidating, this has absolutely nothing to do with horns but the fact that most Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari tends to make the Qunari view hornless qunari as more intimidating/scary than other Qunari. 

 

If you don't see it then you don't see it but it seems perfectly reasonable to me. 

 

 

 

Just because I reject your ridiculous assertions doesn't mean I am ignoring them, I have read what you have had to say and find your arguments flimsy.

 

 

You ignored them in my responses and kept going on about "hornlessness" despite the fact that I had already clarified that I only mean hornless qunari not hornlessness in general. How is clarifying what I meant a ridiculous assertion or flimsy? Stop calling my reasoning names and actually argue with it, or don't. 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

Continuing this because I am bored. 

 

I seem to remeber Liandra in DA2 describing Sten as a terrifying "creature". Anyway, I was generalizing with my engine comment. The point is the Qunari are not meant to look like tall humans. If Sten did in the game that's just because his design did not fit the lore well enough. This was fixed in DA2. Hornless Qunari don't look like humans. 

 

There were hornless Qunari featured in Dragon Age 2? Mind pointing them out to me?

 

Not in that comment you didn't, you just stated that it was flimsy. I also haven't ignored any of your arguments and responded to all of them. You actually haven't responded to all of mine so I find that comment a bit hypocritical, but whatever I guess. 

 

Also your reasoning was flimsy and downright ridiculous at times as I demonstrated to you.  

 

If I haven't responded to a argument of yours it is probably because it isn't worth responding to, but if you desperately need closure then point out these arguments and I will tell you why it is flimsy.

 

Also while the "I know you are but what am I" defense may have worked in Kindergarten it doesn't make for a very good discussion here, just saying that you demonstrated something doesn't mean you actually did.

 

Well they are taller, more muscular, they have grey skin (mostly) and completely different facial structure. If you don't see the difference then fine bnut everyone else does. 

 

A human is not a qunari, Qunari can tell the difference between a human and a qunari. They associate hornless qunari with Ben- Hassrath because most Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari. It's not because of how one thing looks like the other thing or anything silly like that, it's a cultural association based on correlation. 

 

No, nobody except you would think that is far more logical because it is completely ridiculous

 

Funny thing about us humans, we come in all shapes and sizes and while it can be generally stated that Qunari on average would be bigger than your average human it is not inconceivable to imagine that humans can be tall and muscular too, while I admit that Sten looks like he has been beaten with the ugly stick a couple of times (though his skin is not grey) it is not inconceivable that a human could look like that, given what we see in game there are people in real life who would be as big or even bigger than Sten or any of the other hornless Qunari seen in the games. It is far more implausible to think that the Qunari for some reason wouldn't see a correlation between hornless Qunari and humans.

 

Why do you think I brought this up to begin with? In the real world people stereotype based on correlation so the fact that it also happens in a fictional world is not it is unbelievable, even if you say it is. 

 

I never said it was unbelievable that a fictional race could stereotype based on correlation, I merely said that it was unbelievable what they happened to correlate hornlessness with given the creatures they are surrounded with.

 

This all seems like it's more about you than anything else. You decided horns are scarier than no horns. You stubbornly stick to the idea that this is always true and that nobody not even fictional beings in a fictional world could possibly disagree with you on that. 

 

It could also be your own fanboy rage that prevents you from acknowledging flaws in the series you love so dearly, it is not an entirely uncommon affliction but for some reason it seems the fans put in so much more effort into making half baked plot points make sense than the writers themselves ever did even if it only results in digging the plot holes deeper, just look at the Loghain fans.

 

It's not really the horns that are the issue. Hornless Qunari are considered special, if I was unfortunate enough to be arguing from your position this is the part I would attack btw.

 

I was thinking about it but that is a whole other issue entirely, of course it is where the entirety of your argument stems from so why don't you go ahead and tell me why hornless Qunari are considered special? Did they for some reason idolize humans?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes and I gave several reasons as to why the argument is flimsy, perhaps you should read them.

 

No you didn't. Because a hornless human Qunari is not the same as a hornless Kossith Qunari. A hornless human is normal. A hornless Qunari is uncommon.

[mikeymoonshine]

There were hornless Qunari featured in Dragon Age 2? Mind pointing them out to me?

 

I meant Qunari look more Unique in DA2 and I am pretty sure you knew that. 

 

 

If I haven't responded to a argument of yours it is probably because it isn't worth responding to, but if you desperately need closure then point out these arguments and I will tell you why it is flimsy.

 

 

I just pointed out that it was hypocritical that you accused me of doing something that I didn't do and you did do. Don't try turn that around on me. 

 

 

 

Also while the "I know you are but what am I" defense may have worked in Kindergarten it doesn't make for a very good discussion here, just saying that you demonstrated something doesn't mean you actually did.

 

 

The difference is I explain to you the flaws in your logic, I don't just claim it's flawed. You don't provide reasons for your position half the time and when you do those reasons are themselves flimsy or completely irrelevant as I have explained to you by going through every response you have made to me. If you wish to discuss a previous point in our conversation them please point it out but lets not pretend it doesn't exist when we can both just go back and read it. 

 

 

 

Funny thing about us humans, we come in all shapes and sizes and while it can be generally stated that Qunari on average would be bigger than your average human it is not inconceivable to imagine that humans can be tall and muscular too, while I admit that Sten looks like he has been beaten with the ugly stick a couple of times (though his skin is not grey) it is not inconceivable that a human could look like that, given what we see in game there are people in real life who would be as big or even bigger than Sten or any of the other hornless Qunari seen in the games. It is far more implausible to think that the Qunari for some reason wouldn't see a correlation between hornless Qunari and humans.

 

Who said humans can't be tall and muscular? Imagine a DA2 or a DAI Qinari without the horns? Could a human look like that? Also no human in DAO looked like Sten. 

 

It's not unreasonable to assume they wouldn't find a correlation. It's downright ridiculous to say they would just so you can avoid admitting you were wrong. 

 

 

 

I never said it was unbelievable that a fictional race could stereotype based on correlation, I merely said that it was unbelievable what they happened to correlate hornlessness with given the creatures they are surrounded with.

 

You seemed to be implying that but ok. Again! NOT HORNLESSNESS!

 

 

 

It could also be your own fanboy rage that prevents you from acknowledging flaws in the series you love so dearly, it is not an entirely uncommon affliction but for some reason it seems the fans put in so much more effort into making half baked plot points make sense than the writers themselves ever did even if it only results in digging the plot holes deeper, just look at the Loghain fans.

 

Yay an accusation of fanboyism. 

 

I'm sure the writers care little about whether or not you find something as random as this believable and neither do I tbh. I am just interested to know how long you are going to continue with this silly argument. You didn't understand something, it was clarified by several people and then you threw all of your toys out of the pram. It's entertaining I guess. 

 

If you read my original comment, I wasn't even aware of the actual reason until someone in this thread pointed out what Gaider said about it. That's how much I didn't have a problem with the idea that the Qunari might find hornless qunari a bit intimidating. 

 

 

 

I was thinking about it but that is a whole other issue entirely, of course it is where the entirety of your argument stems from so why don't you go ahead and tell me why hornless Qunari are considered special? Did they for some reason idolize humans?

 

I don't know. I don't think there was ever a reason given, they just do. That's why I would attack that part if I was in your shoes. Ofc I am not actually a lore expert so there could have been a reason given I guess. 

 

Anyway I will stress again, the horns aren't the point. They don't find hornlessness by itself, intimidating so speculating about tall beefy humans is just a massive waste of time for you. 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

I meant Qunari look more Unique in DA2 and I am pretty sure you knew that. 

 

Yes the horned variety do, a great whopping set of horns will do that, but that said the only hornless Qunari we have seen in the series appeared in Origins and they look like little more than slightly larger tanned humans.

 

I just pointed out that it was hypocritical that you accused me of doing something that I didn't do and you did do. Don't try turn that around on me.

 

And what was the accusation? That I didn't address your posts? And you claim that you did? Well I am not sure which posts you claim I didn't address so I did ask you to point them out, you haven't so you have clearly ignored that part so the only hypocrite here is you.

 

The difference is I explain to you the flaws in your logic, I don't just claim it's flawed. You don't provide reasons for your position half the time and when you do those reasons are themselves flimsy or completely irrelevant as I have explained to you by going through every response you have made to me. If you wish to discuss a previous point in our conversation them please point it out but lets not pretend it doesn't exist when we can both just go back and read it.

 

Just saying something doesn't make it true, throwing around false accusations does not make them true, I addressed your logic and gave clear reason as to why it is flimsy however instead of addressing those posts you ignore them and focus instead on the false claim that I didn't in what I can only assume is an attempt to derail a discussion you clearly see you can't win but stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

 

I mean look at the rest of your post, should I go on? It rarely addresses the point at hand (and even in the rare cases it does it just re-iterates points that have already refuted) and the content in it is little more than mudslinging, the only real new point you have to bring up is that no human in Origins looked like Sten which anyone can see is because it is cheaper to develop the game if all humans (except for one fat innkeeper) share the same height and body model despite the fact that humans can come in many shapes and sizes including tall and muscular.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There were hornless Qunari featured in Dragon Age 2? Mind pointing them out to me?

 

 

[mikeymoonshine]

 

And what was the accusation? That I didn't address your posts? And you claim that you did? Well I am not sure which posts you claim I didn't address so I did ask you to point them out, you haven't so you have clearly ignored that part so the only hypocrite here is you.

 

Once again trying to turn it around on me. 

 

You accused me of ignoring reasons you gave to me that apparently prove that my logic is flimsy. I am pretty sure I have responded to every point you have made in this discussion so if I did miss something please point it out. 

 

You actually have ignored parts of my argument, you even admitted that and claimed they weren't worth responding to. I don't really care about that, it's your choice to ignore stuff but you were being a hypocrite by accusing me of "ignoring your reasons". We have also already discussed the part you ignored so can we stop playing these silly games?  

 

 

Just saying something doesn't make it true, throwing around false accusations does not make them true.

 

and just claiming an accusation is false doesn't make it false, 

 

I don't expect you to prove your points true, that would be silly because this discussion is mostly based on opinion anyway but you seriously do not provide reasons for an awful lot of your assertions. I was just pointing that out, It didn't need to become some flame war about who's points were more true. If you don't give reasoning for something then it is completely useless to me. 

 

 

 I addressed your logic and gave clear reason as to why it is flimsy however instead of addressing those posts you ignore them and focus instead on the false claim that I didn't in what I can only assume is an attempt to derail a discussion you clearly see you can't win but stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

I thought "I know you are but what am I" wasn't gonna work here.  

 

but seriously, what posts haven't I addressed, what reasons have I just completely ignored? 

 

 

 

I mean look at the rest of your post, should I go on? It rarely addresses the point at hand (and even in the rare cases it does it just re-iterates points that have already refuted) and the content in it is little more than mudslinging, the only real new point you have to bring up is that no human in Origins looked like Sten which anyone can see is because it is cheaper to develop the game if all humans (except for one fat innkeeper) share the same height and body model despite the fact that humans can come in many shapes and sizes including tall and muscular.

 

I think maybe we have a different idea of what the word "refuted" means. That's the only point you really gave a decent response to but I brought up many other points, in my opinion. Humans are tall and muscular but I don't think any of them are meant to look like Qunari. 

 

That whole whether or not Sten looks like humans thing is completely irrelevant anyway. I explained to you why it wasn't but you completely ignored that part and kept on going on about it. I discussed it merely to indulge you and because I like discussing things. 

 

Here's the relevant text just in case you plan on calling me a liar for accusing you of ignoring something you ignored. 

 

"It's not really the horns that are the issue. Hornless Qunari are considered special, if I was unfortunate enough to be arguing from your position this is the part I would attack btw. Because they are seen as special they are given special jobs, many are Ben-Hassrath for example. Ben-Hassrath are scary and intimidating, this has absolutely nothing to do with horns but the fact that most Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari tends to make the Qunari view hornless qunari as more intimidating/scary than other Qunari. "

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

Mikey you are just going round in circles, your latest post is pretty much the same as your last and I am getting tired of responding to the same arguments over and over just for you to ignore them, I never admitted to ignoring your posts at all and if you think that I did then it must be a failure to comprehend on your part, what I did say however that "if" (key word here "if") I did not for some reason respond to one of your points it probably wasn't worth responding to, I even gave you a chance to point them out which you have still failed to do leading to believe that your assertion that I am ignoring your points is little more than hot air.

 

If you are truly interested in having a civil conversation then stop throwing around accusations and post some points worth responding to, otherwise this conversation is going to go nowhere. 

[Osena109]

Humans, Elves, Dwarves ect, apparently hornless Qunari are supposed to be intimidating to other Qunari however I can't for the life of me figure out why, personally I would be more afraid of the guy with massive horns growing out of his head than the one without them but that is just me, just wondering what the logic is behind this snippet of lore is?

 

From what I can see a lot of the lore behind the Dragon Age universe is written without any real rhyme or reason, basically what they have done is take popular fantasy tropes and as a substitute for creativity done the opposite for no real reason other than to subvert expectations, most medieval fantasy settings are located in the Northern Hemisphere while Dragon Age is located in the Southern Hemisphere, Elves are usually depicted as Immortal and among the most respected races in their respective universe however in Dragon Age they are bottom feeders and servants, ect.

 

Perhaps there is something I am missing but it would be nice to get an idea from the writers behind some of the logic behind the writing of the Dragon Age universe.

they Say you allways fear what you don't understand  Hornless people would make them feel  initmidated

[mikeymoonshine]

Mikey you are just going round in circles, your latest post is pretty much the same as your last and I am getting tired of responding to the same arguments over and over just for you to ignore them, I never admitted to ignoring your posts at all and if you think that I did then it must be a failure to comprehend on your part, what I did say however that "if" (key word here "if") I did not for some reason respond to one of your points it probably wasn't worth responding to, I even gave you a chance to point them out which you have still failed to do leading to believe that your assertion that I am ignoring your points is little more than hot air.

 

If you are truly interested in having a civil conversation then stop throwing around accusations and post some points worth responding to, otherwise this conversation is going to go nowhere. 

 

I'm going round in circles because you are leading me round in circles and offering nothing but the same crap over and over again. I have had to reiterate almost every point I have made several times because you either insist on misrepresenting them or you just completely ignore them. 

 

I have already pointed out a couple of points I have made that you have ignored. They whole "i'm not talking about hopelessness" thing and the last one that I quoted for you in my last post. Anyway, once again you are turning this around on me, you are the one who accused me of ignoring you and then didn't specify what I ignored (and you still haven't). I just responded to that accusation by pointing out your hypocrisy and here we are. 

 

Why are you pretending that I have not specified? Why are you pretending that there are points you have made that supposedly debunk my position that I have apparently ignored? 

 

Civil conversation? Could you actually be any more of a ridiculous hypocrite, you called me a fanboy for **** sake! 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

I'm going round in circles because you are leading me round in circles and offering nothing but the same crap over and over again. I have had to reiterate almost every point I have made several times because you either insist on misrepresenting them or you just completely ignore them. 

 

I have already pointed out a couple of points I have made that you have ignored. They whole "i'm not talking about hopelessness" thing and the last one that I quoted for you in my last post. Anyway, once again you are turning this around on me, you are the one who accused me of ignoring you and then didn't specify what I ignored (and you still haven't). I just responded to that accusation by pointing out your hypocrisy and here we are. 

 

Why are you pretending that I have not specified? Why are you pretending that there are points you have made that supposedly debunk my position that I have apparently ignored? 

 

Civil conversation? Could you actually be any more of a ridiculous hypocrite, you called me a fanboy for **** sake! 

 

Calm down Mikey, perhaps you should take some time to cool off and organize your thoughts a little better as you are obviously agitated, I did not mean to cause offense and I was not aware that being called a Dragon Age fan was considered an insult, are you not a fan of the series?

 

You have already brought up your Ben-Hassrath argument multiple times and I have already told you that just because some hornless qunari are associated with them and some of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless there really isn't a strong enough correlation to create a stereotype.

[mikeymoonshine]

Calm down Mikey, perhaps you should take some time to cool off and organize your thoughts a little better as you are obviously agitated, I did not mean to cause offense and I was not aware that being called a Dragon Age fan was considered an insult, are you not a fan of the series?

 

Your intellectual dishonesty is annoying me slightly. Also no I was not particularly offended when you called me a "fanboy" but that is an insult btw. Just don't act like you are looking for a civil conversation. Don't criticize other people for doing things you yourself are guilty of, it's a very easy concept to grasp. 

 

 

You have already brought up your Ben-Hassrath argument multiple times and I have already told you that just because some hornless qunari are associated with them and some of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless there really isn't a strong enough correlation to create a stereotype.

My Ben-Hassrath argument? That was the reason Gaider gave. Most of my points centered around that but they were not just the "Ben-Hassrath argument" the only times I brought arguments up more than once was to reiterate them or to point out the parts you didn't respond to when you yourself asked me to do that. 

 

Told me? No you argued that and I addressed that argument already. You are using the word some again when it is not some it is most. This is my point, we have already been through all this and you have not taken any of my responses on board, obviously.

 

If MOST (not some) of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari then Ben-Hassrath could easily be stereotyped by many as hornless qunari. Again you are asserting that there isn't a strong enough correlation, this seems like a completely unjustified assertion to me. What would be a strong enough correlation? Do all of them have to be hornless qunari for you to accept this?

 

The fact that it is a common trait amongst Ben-Hassrath is certainly enough to create this link and I have no idea why you are saying it isn't. 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

Your intellectual dishonesty is annoying me slightly. Also no I was not particularly offended when you called me a "fanboy" but that is an insult btw. Just don't act like you are looking for a civil conversation. Don't criticize other people for doing things you yourself are guilty of, it's a very easy concept to grasp. 

 

 

My Ben-Hassrath argument? That was the reason Gaider gave. Most of my points centered around that but they were not just the "Ben-Hassrath argument" the only times I brought arguments up more than once was to reiterate them or to point out the parts you didn't respond to when you yourself asked me to do that. 

 

Told me? No you argued that and I addressed that argument already. You are using the word some again when it is not some it is most. This is my point, we have already been through all this and you have not taken any of my responses on board, obviously.

 

If MOST (not some) of the Ben-Hassrath are hornless qunari then Ben-Hassrath could easily be stereotyped by many as hornless qunari. Again you are asserting that there isn't a strong enough correlation, this seems like a completely unjustified assertion to me. What would be a strong enough correlation? Do all of them have to be hornless qunari for you to accept this?

 

The fact that it is a common trait amongst Ben-Hassrath is certainly enough to create this link and I have no idea why you are saying it isn't. 

 

Most Mafia families are Itallian, most Yakuza are Japanese does this mean that all Italians and Japanese are considered intimidating?

[mikeymoonshine]

Most Mafia families are Itallian, most Yakuza are Japanese does this mean that all Italians and Japanese are considered intimidating?

 

 Most Italians are not Mafia and most Japanese people are not Yakuza. 

 

Also Italian families are sometimes considered intimidating in parts of America because of the mafia so even then there can be stereotypes in certain situations. 

[Herr Uhl]

Most Mafia families are Itallian, most Yakuza are Japanese does this mean that all Italians and Japanese are considered intimidating?

 

Very few middle eastern people are suicide bombers or hi-jackers. Yet there are people that get intimidated by them when they go on an aircraft with them.

 

I don't find prejudice on this level unrealistic.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

 Most Italians are not Mafia and most Japanese people are not Yakuza. 

 

And most hornless in Thedas aren't Ben-Hassrath.

[mikeymoonshine]

And most hornless in Thedas aren't Ben-Hassrath.

 

Most hornless qunari are though. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the difference between a hornless qunari and anything else that doesn't have horns? 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

Most hornless qunari are though. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the difference between a hornless qunari and anything else that doesn't have horns? 

 

Because the Qunari themselves dont, either you are a part of the Qun or you are not, race is irrelevant.

[mikeymoonshine]

Because the Qunari themselves dont, either you are a part of the Qun or you are not, race is irrelevant.

 

They have no name for the race, that doesn't mean they can't tell the difference between a human and a qunari. 

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

They have no name for the race, that doesn't mean they can't tell the difference between a human and a qunari. 

 

I am sure the horns would be a big giveaway, but we aren't talking about the creatures with horns.

[LilyasAvalon]

Pretty sure Sten was born without his horns. It's considered a good sign if they are for whatever reason.

[mikeymoonshine]

I am sure the horns would be a big giveaway, but we aren't talking about the creatures with horns.

 

and the fact that it's a qunari.