385 réponses à ce sujet

[SerCambria358]

Well we don't know either ones experience levels completely, so it cant really be proven that he has more. Skill I would say goes to Leliana, using a bow is much harder then swinging a sword and requires a person to have plenty of skill. raw power vs agility is kind of something that has been fought over for like all of human history(at least up till guns took over) so in the end id say those 2 negate each other. Perception, I would give to Leliana because being a bard pretty much depends on it. She has said shes mastered the ability to judge and manipulate others and while puppy dog eyes wont work on sten, Im willing to bet she could make him think she weaker then she appears(overplaying her wounds etc). Combine that with Stens underestimating thing and that seems like a big weakness(or strength for her). Also there is the matter of rage... sten does have the capability of loosing himself to it, meaning all judgment goes out the window. While Leliana is in perfect control of her emotions(again part of being a bard). She could even purposefully draw that rage out and Im sure she could find a way to do so.

Whoa whoa whoa, shooting a bow DOES NOT take more skill than learning to use a sword, infact the bow is one of the easiest ancient weapons to use, people who knew how to use a greatsword in reality, were actually paid double because it was a skilled area of expertise.

 

Yes we can draw conclusions of their experience because for one both of them tell us of their experiences, not only that but sten is a warrior of the Qunari, that automatically means he was training since he could walk, Leliana we know spent a lot of time with nobles learning to play The Game, thats good and all but that doesnt help in a one on one fight to the death.

 

Her being able to manipulate men with sex appeal does not translate over to mind games in combat. Just because Sten doesnt like to put up with bs that doesnt mean he loses himself to anger in the middle of combat, he isnt the Hulk. The fact that he knew the demons mind games in the fade were in fact mind games, shows his mental fortitude, in fact he outwitted Morrigan in a piece of party banter which is saying something about his ability to ward off mind games.

 

As for the raw power vs agility, i've already established that Sten is more than just raw power ive listed his advantages several times (power,skill,experience,will) Lelianas only advantage in this particular fight is her agility and as ive said before, that will only get her so far because agility alone doesnt win fights when your opponent outmatches you in every other facet 

[NoForgiveness]

ugh.. whatever. im done. arguing with people online is tough work. 

[SerCambria358]

ugh.. whatever. im done. arguing with people online is tough work. 

[TheLittleBird]

Now now, no need to argue. Both of you have given extremely well-represented arguments to back up your votes, so they won't be overlooked. But in the end, the votes decide.

I'll be honest, if I were to vote, I wouldn't know which of the two would get mine; Leliana or Sten. It's a tough one for sure.

[FairfaxGal]

Fight 1
Leliana - Leliana is both a Seeker and a Bard, trained as she was under Marjolaine, of whom she now carries the bow. During her time with the Hero of Ferelden, she was hardened. Previously in the tournament, Leliana defeated Varric, Isabela, and Sigrun.
vs
Sten - After the Blight and the death of the previous one in Kirkwall, Sten became the new Arishok. He still carries Asalaa, the sword the Warden gave him. Previously in the tournament, Sten defeated, Fenris, Aveline, and Loghain.

Sten - he has better stamina, better armor and is tough enough to survive Leliana's arrows until he can close with her and finish her off.

Fight 2
Morrigan (DA:O) - Morrigan never went through with the Dark Ritual she offered to the Warden. She holds in her possession her mother's grimoires, which the Warden gave her. She is still a Shapeshifter, as she was during the Blight. Previously in the tournament, Morrigan defeated Grey Warden Bethany, Awakening's Anders, and Merrill (DA2).
vs
Shale - Having traveled with the Hero of Ferelden, Shale knows her true identity, and she has also been equipped with Brilliant Crystals. Previously in the tournament, Shale defeated an Ogre, Cailan the King of Ferelden, and Keeper

Morrigan Shale will have taken a lot of damage in beating Zathrian and won't be able to stand against a slightly weakened but still formidable Morrigan. And by starting fairly far apart, Morrigan will have the time necessary to slow Shale down so she can inflict some major damage before Shale can close. And if Shale is able to close, Morrigan can turn into the bearskarn or flying swarm and do major damage in a form that is almost as tough as Shale's.

Edit: for typos

[Just My Moniker]

Fight 1: Sten - If they haven't been allowed to rest, then Leliana must be running low on or even be out of arrows by now. Also, Sten has the determination of the Qun, which he will follow and carry out to the death.

 

Fight 2: Shale - The same with Morrigan, if she hasn't been allowed to rest then she must be running low on mana, and rest isnt something Shale needs so I think this would be a rather easy fight.

[The Baconer]

 people who knew how to use a greatsword in reality, were actually paid double because it was a skilled area of expertise.

 

Not saying it's not an area of expertise... but I thought the double pay was an acknowledgement that they would be among the first to die.

[BloodyTalon]

Not saying it's not an area of expertise... but I thought the double pay was an acknowledgement that they would be among the first to die.

Depends on the country in some places they served has the vanguard and shock troops, remember depending on the type of greatsword they could cut horses in half and other things.

Someone skilled in that type of sword could deal with a lot of things on the battleflied that rank and file couldn't, in some causes the normal troops would tie up things so the greatswords could get in and get to work without dying.

[BlazinAces30]

Fight 1
Leliana - Leliana is both a Seeker and a Bard, trained as she was under Marjolaine, of whom she now carries the bow. During her time with the Hero of Ferelden, she was hardened. Previously in the tournament, Leliana defeated Varric, Isabela, and Sigrun.
vs
Sten - After the Blight and the death of the previous one in Kirkwall, Sten became the new Arishok. He still carries Asalaa, the sword the Warden gave him. Previously in the tournament, Sten defeated, Fenris, Aveline, and Loghain.

Leliana-Sten has the most intense fights. He will have nothing left in the tank. Leliana will be able to out last a very tiresome warrior that has been through the ringer in every match so far. The very heavy plate armor will only slow Sten down even more. Leliana will just keep her distant with her bow and when Sten is least expecting it Leliana is behind him with several well place back stabs. Match over.

Fight 2
Morrigan (DA:O) - Morrigan never went through with the Dark Ritual she offered to the Warden. She holds in her possession her mother's grimoires, which the Warden gave her. She is still a Shapeshifter, as she was during the Blight. Previously in the tournament, Morrigan defeated Grey Warden Bethany, Awakening's Anders, and Merrill (DA2).
vs
Shale - Having traveled with the Hero of Ferelden, Shale knows her true identity, and she has also been equipped with Brilliant Crystals. Previously in the tournament, Shale defeated an Ogre, Cailan the King of Ferelden, and Keeper 

Morrigan-Shale is too cocky when it comes to fighting mages. The fight againist the ogre, Calian, and the keeper was about as tough as all the fights that Sten faced. Shale might also be missing an limb or two after the fight with the keeper. Still will be a tough fight.

[The Baconer]

Depends on the country in some places they served has the vanguard and shock troops, remember depending on the type of greatsword they could cut horses in half and other things.

 

In the literal sense? I won't believe it.

[SerCambria358]

Not saying it's not an area of expertise... but I thought the double pay was an acknowledgement that they would be among the first to die.

No you're thinking of the "Forlorn" which were the vanguard. Dopplesoddners (im pretty sure thats misspelled, needed to prove that they were skilled with the weapon by providing proof that they've taken several lessons, it was a weapon used by a lot of bodyguards. 

 

Plus the point still stands that a sword is much harder to use than a bow, the notion that it takes little skill to use one is ridiculous 

[Swaggerjking]

No you're thinking of the "Forlorn" which were the vanguard. Dopplesoddners (im pretty sure thats misspelled, needed to prove that they were skilled with the weapon by providing proof that they've taken several lessons, it was a weapon used by a lot of bodyguards. 

 

Plus the point still stands that a sword is much harder to use than a bow, the notion that it takes little skill to use one is ridiculous 

Yes while in reality it doesn't take skill to use a sword but to use it right it does especially which the Sten would would have from all of his time in the Qun  while bows do not take a lot of skill to use but to know were to fire and land the shots in the armor  so both take skill to use in the military for them to be effective   

 

Sten just because i feel he can with stand more than Leliana 

 

Shale just once again i feel he can stand up to more and doesn't need rest while Morrigan does and shape shifting doesn't not give her any advantage it would give her shale could easily destroy a swarm in one or two punches and same with the spider while the the bear maybe give her a few more hits she would need to get in close and that would the shale get to big of a hold on her and reduce er overall mobility 

[ElementalFury106]

You're overestimating the ability to dodge while underestimating the ability to time attacks, nothing about Leliana has implied that she can dodge at these levels let alone consistently without being hit at all. Thats also assuming sten is slow, which is not said or hinted to at all, in fact using a sword for your entire life would imply that it wouldnt hinder him as much as you seem to think. 

 

You say Stens skills are limited but i say the opposite, Lelianas one and only weapon is agility, Sten outmatches her in every other facet. I dont understand this notion that sten cant catch her, he isnt some mindless brute that swings a club, he's a seasoned warrior who would clearly know that timing is key to beating someone with speed, which again is her one and only advantage in this fight. If a boxer went in to the ring against a champion who was stronger bigger more experienced and had better technique, speed alone will not save them from being knocked out. Same thing in this scenario

 

No, I think you're underestimating it. Scoundrel rogues are literally built to take down larger, slower foes through exploits and such. To imply Sten is quick enough to where Leliana won't be able to dodge his huge swings...nope not seeing it. A lot of others don't see it either.

 

And no, I don't see Sten out matching Leliana in everyway. In fact, all he has over her is strength, reach, and endurance. She's quicker, more agile, more varied, more cunning, more perceptive. The sum of her parts give her the ultimate advantage, therefore I feel she would win.

 

If you're confused, reread my other posts. There's no further explanation needed.

 

/Discussion. Let others chime in before we make the entire tournament all about our back and forth debate.

[The Baconer]

No you're thinking of the "Forlorn" which were the vanguard. Dopplesoddners (im pretty sure thats misspelled, needed to prove that they were skilled with the weapon by providing proof that they've taken several lessons, it was a weapon used by a lot of bodyguards. 

 

Well, Doppelsoldner was not at all a term exclusive to those who used greatswords, so I don't see how it could be used to suggest how a greatsword would take more or less finesse than a bow (especially since bows had long fallen out of conventional usage during the time Doppelsoldners were a thing).

 

But I digress, as this has **** all to do with the topic at hand.

[TheLittleBird]

The voting on ROUND 4 will close in approx. 24 hours

[SerCambria358]

No, I think you're underestimating it. Scoundrel rogues are literally built to take down larger, slower foes through exploits and such. To imply Sten is quick enough to where Leliana won't be able to dodge his huge swings...nope not seeing it. A lot of others don't see it either.

 

And no, I don't see Sten out matching Leliana in everyway. In fact, all he has over her is strength, reach, and endurance. She's quicker, more agile, more varied, more cunning, more perceptive. The sum of her parts give her the ultimate advantage, therefore I feel she would win.

 

If you're confused, reread my other posts. There's no further explanation needed.

 

/Discussion. Let others chime in before we make the entire tournament all about our back and forth debate.

Thats putting Sten in the same category as some random brutes whose only strength is physical power. We've already established he's not solely a fighter of pure strength. Im implying that she cant dodge him forever especially this late into a fight, fatigue and injuries would not allow her to consistently keep this pace even with these exaggerated levels of agility, putting aside that argument even the quickest fighter in the world gets caught once in a while, to just outright say that because she is fast, she wont be caught, IS exaggerating especially since nothing supports the notion of sten being slow, he may be "slower" than his oppenent but that doesnt mean he's swinging an anchor around. 

 

Agility and speed fall under the same category, i dont see how varation helps, its been agree that her bow will have little effect leaving her blades which leaves her with the issue of a 5-7ft reach to deal with, what about her perception would help in this fight? She knows the weak points in armor but thats not anything unique to her. You also left out his biggest strength, experience. That in my opinion is the deal breaker, he's faced natives like her before on Seheron and has trained his entire life for situations just like this, Leliana was raised with a noble class learning politics and manipulation while Sten was learning to kill in scenarios just like this.

 

Im confused as to the notion that speed alone is the end all, because it implies that she wont ever be caught in the engagement, lets say she tags him a few times, all it takes is one hit from him and she's split in two. 

[SerCambria358]

Well, Doppelsoldner was not at all a term exclusive to those who used greatswords, so I don't see how it could be used to suggest how a greatsword would take more or less finesse than a bow (especially since bows had long fallen out of conventional usage during the time Doppelsoldners were a thing).

 

But I digress, as this has **** all to do with the topic at hand.

I already said because they needed to provide credentials in using the weapon, regardless to the other weapons they may have used (although the Zweihander was the primary weapon) Archery was never a field of expertise that demands this, people can pick up archery in a literal week, swordplay takes years.

 

It ties into the topic because it supports the earlier point i made

[TheLittleBird]

As it seems like those of you involved in this "Leliana vs Sten" -debate can't seem to come to an agreement, I'm going to have to ask you to take this discussion elsewhere, for the sake of not derailing this thread and turning it into a full-blown discussion on the subject, even if it is relevant to the tournament. You have all made some excellent points to back up your votes and I'm surely going to take your votes into account, so you don't have to worry about that.

[Pateu]

Leliana - Sten

 

 

Sten wins. Leliana is tired and Sten still has his armor to protect him from her attacks, which are ill fitted against anything sturdy- such as plate, scale- which Sten is most likely to wear.

 

Once Sten gets his hands on her, she is dead.

 

Morrigan vs Shale

 

I'd say Morrigan. For all the durability Shale has, Morrigan is not only an intelligent mage, she's also a shapeshifter. She can slowly lower Shale's defences and go for the kill or shapeshift when she runs out of mana.

 

Also, I will -NEVER-, -EVER- forgive BSN for saying Aveline wins over Alistair.

 

I have no words.

[DrBlingzle]

Okay this one was a toughie.

1. Sten. Now at first I was thinking Leliana was going to wound Sten greatly before he even got to her due to the lack of plate armour (Dammit Sten, why?). However as Just My Moniker pointed out Leliana is probably running out of arrows by now. On top of that I think Sten has a much higher endurance than Lelian, having had the training for long drawn out battles where as Leliana was trained for short skirmishes. In the end I think Sten would just scrape victory albeit heavily wounded.
2. Shale. I kind of hate myself for saying this (Morrigan is one of my favourite characters) but I think shale would win. She's a golem so again she wouldn't really get tired as opposed to Morrigan. A lot of people are saying that Morrigan can just stay at a distance and wear shale down but Shale can throw goddamn boulders which at the very least would stun morrigan enough to allow shale to get close. And lets face it when that happens the fights pretty much over. If they had this fight at the beginning then I think Morrigan would win but as it is, I think Shale scraps a win. 

[TheLittleBird]

Also, I will -NEVER-, -EVER- forgive BSN for saying Aveline wins over Alistair.

 

I have no words.

 

It's the majority's decision, and you have to respect that. I would have voted on Alistair as well, but it's interesting to see other peoples' opinions on the matter. And I'm not to choose sides here, but merely to see to it that the voting process goes well. 

[LostInReverie19]

Fight 1

Sten. Leliana may be quick, but I believe Sten would close the distance quickly, maybe taking a few hits from Leliana's bow, but it barely slows him down. Once he's within close range, Leliana's finished. She can't stand up to Sten's brute strength. 

 

Fight 2

Shale. Shale's crystals allow her to sense magic. Morrigan would not be able to surprise her. Also, she's already stomped one mage to death. I can't see any of Morrigan's spells or abilities slowing Shale down for long. 

[Wolfen09]

so we went from trying to decide which character was the best at their role (rogue v rogue, warrior v warrior, etc.) to lets just pit whoever is left against another regardless of class?  and here i did that 8 pages ago, hmpph i was doing it before it was cool

[TheLittleBird]

so we went from trying to decide which character was the best at their role (rogue v rogue, warrior v warrior, etc.) to lets just pit whoever is left against another regardless of class?  and here i did that 8 pages ago, hmpph i was doing it before it was cool

 

It's what was planned all along. Right now it's the 'best rogue' against the 'best warrior' and the 'best mage' against the best of the listed NPC's.

[Wolfen09]

hmmph.... should have just done it all mixed up from the beginning, would have been way more interesting....