385 réponses à ce sujet

[DrBlingzle]

Instead of arguing which one is more determined, let's just assume that all contestants are 100% dedicated and will do whatever it takes to win. You can't say for certain that Shale will be a big goof or be lazy in this battle, nor can you say Sten will be dead serious. It's just guessing.

Talking about which one is more dedicated is pointless, not to mention it's a horrible way to determine the winner because it's not something you can really measure. It's all "well maybe Sten can do this" or "Maybe Shale can do this", well if we're going with stuff like that, maybe the tower will collapse and they both end up dead.

We should just stick to physical factors, like training, armor, offense, stuff that we can actually judge.

No offence (and unlike a lot of people on BSN I actually mean that), but if we're not allowed to guess whats the point of this tournament?

[Feybrad]

Sten - He is his People. The Arishok is not a man, but an idea. The idea that one fulfills his or her duty unflinchingly. An idea whose collective conviction is harder than the stone from which Shale was built. The idea that the impossibility of millions becoming one and imposing order on a chaotic world is not only possible, but Shown and Proven. Arishok is Certainty. In that moment atop Fort Drakon Arishok is the Qun. 

 

That was... beautiful.

 

I could've prophesized this would be the Finale and I think it's a worthy one. Truly the two greatest Warriors out of the Combatants are faced against one another. And although I would say Shale has the clear Advantage over the Origin Sten we all know and love, that Hammer changes Things. Thus Sten will win - with that Hammer he will be able to crush the Stone her Body is made of, while Shale is too cocky to recognize the actual Threat the Qunari poses. He would, of course, have a hard Time, but his indomitable Will and his, I think, slightly superior tactical Knowledge give him an Edge over Shale's brute Force.

[elfdwarf]

shale win because boulders and to damage shale really hit hard but would be sten down fall

[Heimdall]

Sten - He is his People. The Arishok is not a man, but an idea. The idea that one fulfills his or her duty unflinchingly. An idea whose collective conviction is harder than the stone from which Shale was built. The idea that the impossibility of millions becoming one and imposing order on a chaotic world is not only possible, but Shown and Proven. Arishok is Certainty. In that moment atop Fort Drakon Arishok is the Qun.

Ideals are pretty, but often fall down in the face of practical realities like, say, over a ton of stone Golem.

[BlueFlame527]

Shale: This is obviously going to be an up close and personal fight between two brutes which means that there are two factors, defense and strength. Sten is very strong and has a giant hammer but it is not enough to shatter a golem reinforced with magical crystals in time before Shale just starts pounding Sten into the ground Sten. Shale wins in both regards so I'm giving her the victory.

[Ravenmyste]

shale hands down she can just tire out  sten just by letting him attack her her body cant really be harmed by common  weapons like swords and such

[FairfaxGal]

Sten - one blow from Shale is not going to knock out the heavily armored and experienced Sten like it would a mage. I believe that Sten, with that massive hammer, would be able to inflict more devastating blows on Shale than Shale could inflict devastating blows on him. Especially since Sten has rested and eaten his fill of cookies. (I know, I know - no joking allowed but it was a serious point about the time allowed to rest.)

[The Baconer]

Absolutely Shale.

 

Get close, make the long hammer useless, close out with Spinning Piledriver.

[The Baconer]

The problem with stone is that if it cracks, the entire slab is pretty much compromised, one good hit from a maul like that being swung by a beast of a qunari definitely has the potential to do major damage, her previous opponents couldnt deal that type of damage  

 

They certainly could (Morrigan), but lack of rest instantly demolished any chance she might have had in that encounter.

 

In all seriousness, this is definitely one of the easier matchups for Shale. Even though that big dumb hammer would appear to be an ideal weapon to face an opponent like Shale, it's far too easy to get behind the head and make it totally useless, and if Shale gets a hold of it, or Stenishok, the fight is done.

 

Even if he were to get a hit, unless it is enough to disable her in a single strike it would provide the perfect opportunity to grab it by the handle (because **** off, he is not that fast). All this talk about "dodging" punches is just too funny. Why would she waste time throwing swings when she could just get close and fold him like a shirt.

[Heimdall]

They certainly could (Morrigan), but lack of rest instantly demolished any chance she might have had in that encounter.

 

In all seriousness, this is definitely one of the easier matchups for Shale. Even though that big dumb hammer would appear to be an ideal weapon to face an opponent like Shale, it's far too easy to get behind the head and make it totally useless, and if Shale gets a hold of it, or Stenishok, the fight is done.

 

Even if he were to get a hit, unless it is enough to disable her in a single strike it would provide the perfect opportunity to grab it by the handle (because **** off, he is not that fast). All this talk about "dodging" punches is just too funny. Why would she waste time throwing swings when she could just get close and fold him like a shirt.

Agreed, Sten is faster than Shale, but not by much of a margin.  That, and the maul requires a bigger windup than most of Shale's punches.  The moment she gets in range, she can deal out damage faster than he can.

[SerCambria358]

They certainly could (Morrigan), but lack of rest instantly demolished any chance she might have had in that encounter.

 

In all seriousness, this is definitely one of the easier matchups for Shale. Even though that big dumb hammer would appear to be an ideal weapon to face an opponent like Shale, it's far too easy to get behind the head and make it totally useless, and if Shale gets a hold of it, or Stenishok, the fight is done.

 

Even if he were to get a hit, unless it is enough to disable her in a single strike it would provide the perfect opportunity to grab it by the handle (because **** off, he is not that fast). All this talk about "dodging" punches is just too funny. Why would she waste time throwing swings when she could just get close and fold him like a shirt.

1."Big dumb hammer" Its dumb because you'tr under the impression that its a clumsy weapon? How is it easy to get behind the head of the weapon? Nothing gives that impression let alone with Sten swinging it. I think you also missed the part where Shale is not small or fast by any means, to say its as simple as "getting behind the head" is just exaggerating her reflexes .

 

2.Grabbing a moving hammer is never a good idea, if im made of stone, the last thing i want to do is attempt to catch a moving maul from a seasoned warrior.

 

3. Where is this notion coming from that he's slow? WHere has it been shown or said that he is slow? You say "**** off" yet nothing supports this claim and you act as if its so hard to believe that something made of flesh and bone is significantly faster than something purely made of rock, that has been shown to be clumsily slow.

 

4."Why would she waste time swinging"....because thats her only means of attack?!!? She only punches things so of course its logical to assume that she's going to try to punch him

 

5. You imply grabbing is an easy thing to do, just charging at someone trying to grab them is hard enough when its two average human being let alone trying to do it being as slow as she is against someone who isnt hindered in that way at all. Armor does not slow your movements down, it fatigues you therefore hindering your performance, but this is a fresh fight so it wont be a factor. 

 

Agreed, Sten is faster than Shale, but not by much of a margin.  That, and the maul requires a bigger windup than most of Shale's punches.  The moment she gets in range, she can deal out damage faster than he can.

Lol so someone who has trained in combat their entire life is only faster than a boulder by a margin? I really am not getting where its implied that Sten is slower than molasses. You dont wind up weapons and have you seen golems throw punches? What makes you think Sten is just gonna stand there when she does try to approach him, in a fight you dont stay where your opponent is strongest

[TheLittleBird]

Again:

 

Now, guys, it's obvious you won't be able to reach an understanding or agreement here either, so let's just drop it, okay? I'd like to give others the chance of voting, rather than having the thread turn into an argument about the fight itself.

[Heimdall]

Lol so someone who has trained in combat their entire life is only faster than a boulder by a margin? I really am not getting where its implied that Sten is slower than molasses. You dont wind up weapons and have you seen golems throw punches? What makes you think Sten is just gonna stand there when she does try to approach him, in a fight you dont stay where your opponent is strongest

Shale isn't half as slow as you seem to think.  Where did you get the idea that Sten is light as a feather?

 

EDIT:  Sorry TheLittleBird, I'll stop

[MrMrPendragon]

No offence (and unlike a lot of people on BSN I actually mean that), but if we're not allowed to guess whats the point of this tournament?

Not everything is guess work. For example, judging from Sten's lack of armor on his torso, one hit from Shale can cripple him. That's not guessing as it only makes sense that Sten will be severely damaged if a fist made of rocks was to hit him directly on his unarmored chest.

Another thing is Shale's crystals which gives her an edge because it empowers her physical attacks. Example of guessing and assumption is saying that "maybe sten can hit hard enough with a hammer that it will crush Shale". You can't say that with certainty. You can only say that Sten has a hammer that he can use against Shale. And you can only say that Shale has crystals for defense and offense.

You can easily draw conculsions based on factors such as strength, armor, agility, and equipment. What I'm saying is that you CAN'T do that with factors such as "determination" or "will to fight" or any intangible factors, so I proposed that it is better to just assume that both competitors will do anything it takes to win, and that we stick to what we can judge.

[SerCambria358]

Not everything is guess work. For example, judging from Sten's lack of armor on his torso, one hit from Shale can cripple him. That's not guessing as it only makes sense that Sten will be severely damaged if a fist made of rocks was to hit him directly on his unarmored chest.

Another thing is Shale's crystals which gives her an edge because it empowers her physical attacks. Example of guessing and assumption is saying that "maybe sten can hit hard enough with a hammer that it will crush Shale". You can't say that with certainty. You can only say that Sten has a hammer that he can use against Shale. And you can only say that Shale has crystals for defense and offense.

You can easily draw conculsions based on factors such as strength, armor, agility, and equipment. What I'm saying is that you CAN'T do that with factors such as "determination" or "will to fight" or any intangible factors, so I proposed that it is better to just assume that both competitors will do anything it takes to win, and that we stick to what we can judge.

i Agreed until the second half.

 

Golems arent indestructible and its a legitimate assumption to think that something like a maul significantly damage a being made entirely of stone and crystals. 

 

Also you definitely can draw conclusions about two individuals determination when they have such drastically different upbringings and views, its very safe to conclude that Sten's philosophies are a stronger drive than someone who really has no motives. As i've said before, the mental game is just as important as the physical, thats a fact.

 

(I think everyone is accepting that sten has plate armor on)

[DrBlingzle]

 

(I think everyone is accepting that sten has plate armor on)

Nah, Bird said he's got the armour he wears in the picture provided.

Spoiler

Edit: Okay yeah, it has got plates, but its certainly not full plate armour.

[SerCambria358]

Nah, Bird said he's got the armour he wears in the picture provided.

Spoiler

Edit: Okay yeah, it has got plates, but its certainly not full plate armour.

Thank you, in that case, a bare chested 7ft qunari without the hindrance of armor swinging around a giant Chisel

 

[The Baconer]

1."Big dumb hammer" Its dumb because you'tr under the impression that its a clumsy weapon? How is it easy to get behind the head of the weapon? Nothing gives that impression let alone with Sten swinging it. I think you also missed the part where Shale is not small or fast by any means, to say its as simple as "getting behind the head" is just exaggerating her reflexes .

 

Because, in purely realistic terms, that's exactly what it is. Hefty and unbalanced. Its length, and the time spent gearing up for a strike are all factors that make it easier to get behind its optimal range. If he tries to mitigate this by grasping it closer to the head then it means he won't be striking with as much power.

 

2.Grabbing a moving hammer is never a good idea, if im made of stone, the last thing i want to do is attempt to catch a moving maul from a seasoned warrior.

 

Why would one try and grab it by the head? Start closing the distance when he lifts it up to strike. If she's too close then he'll either strike her with the pole (which will do **** all) or he'll have to withdraw to gain more space. Or he can change his grip like I said above, but that hurts his ability to make a lethal blow. A seasoned warrior like Stenishok would not even waste time trying to fight a golem one-on-one in this format.

 

3. Where is this notion coming from that he's slow? WHere has it been shown or said that he is slow? You say "**** off" yet nothing supports this claim and you act as if its so hard to believe that something made of flesh and bone is significantly faster than something purely made of rock, that has been shown to be clumsily slow.

 

Where did I say he was slow? When I say he's "not that fast", I mean he's not fast enough to be able to make a non-lethal strike (or at least a strike that doesn't stagger her) and recover before she can grab the weapon in retaliation.

 

4."Why would she waste time swinging"....because thats her only means of attack?!!? She only punches things so of course its logical to assume that she's going to try to punch him

 

That's just daft. She's got two arms, two legs, and weighs as much as a car. Considering the conditions of the battle, and her own girth, grappling would be a much more reliable and effective option than punching.

 

5. You imply grabbing is an easy thing to do, just charging at someone trying to grab them is hard enough when its two average human being let alone trying to do it being as slow as she is against someone who isnt hindered in that way at all. Armor does not slow your movements down, it fatigues you therefore hindering your performance, but this is a fresh fight so it wont be a factor. 

 

Saying "Armor does not slow you down" is as much hyperbole as "you can't jog/sprint/roll/do x in armor". Of course, given that Stenishok is wearing Qunari-style armor any hindrance to his mobility is probably undetectable.

 

The big dumb hammer is another matter.

[MrMrPendragon]

Uh, Yes I can. I did it twice in the last two pages. And you're not a exactly a neutral party so it's kind of hard to accept you as the shot caller. Unless Littlebird says "Sten being zealot doesn't count" or something along those lines I'll keep doing so.

The fact is that in EVERY competition since the beginning of time motivation and determination have factored into how those competitions have played out.

I'm just giving out suggestions, not shot calling. I'm not taking "motivation" out of the battle. I'm just saying that I'm basing my arguments while assuming that both competitors have the same "amount" (if you can even accurately "measure" determination) of motivation coming into battle.

But for some reason, you insist that they have varying degrees of motivation. That may be true, but that type arguing will get us nowhere because there is no "scale" we can use to measure perseverance. Well how much "determination" exactly does Shale have? How do you compare upbringings and teachings? Is one "better" than the other? Qunari are ruthless so they make better warriors?

Another thing is dictating how one competitor attacks. You can't say for certain Sten will only attack head on, nor can you say Shale will only attack with her fist. Maybe Sten will do some crazy footwork and out maneuver Shale. Maybe Sten does do this, and so on. Can't just use that because it may happen or it may not, which makes it easy for voters on both sides because they'll just pick their own conditions in which their pick will gain advantage.

Sten is more disciplined I'm sure, but Shale isn't really going into battle thinking "Well I was really apathetic about most things throughout my life, so maybe I'll be exactly that in the upcoming battle" Maybe she will be undisciplined and apathetic person with absolutely zero motives coming into battle, maybe she won't be like that. You can't be certain, not unless Bird lists out the conditions. So until then I'm going to base purely on physical factors.

[Beliar86]

Sten has the reach and it's going to let him get the first blow, and it will do terrible, terrible damage with that hammer.  Of course shale is going to retaliate against on open chested Sten, and it will also do terrible, terrible damage.  Sten gets a second hit, breaking apart the golem.  Sten dies to internal injuries minutes later.  Shale dies first though, giving the win to STEN

[Heimdall]

The hammer may or may not do enough damage in one blow to stun Shale, but it unless he hits her dead on in the head it probably won't kill her, but if Shale gets close enough to render it ineffective, she's also close enough to end the battle with one or two blows to his unprotected chest.

[Silver Moone]

Well Shale is by far a better character, however that doesn't make her...er...it...whatever...a better fighter...we've all taken down golems quite easily during game play so they can be beaten. Sten is a seasoned and well trained warrior, so I'd go with Sten on this occasion. 

[SerCambria358]

 

 

Because, in purely realistic terms, that's exactly what it is. Hefty and unbalanced. Its length, and the time spent gearing up for a strike are all factors that make it easier to get behind its optimal range. If he tries to mitigate this by grasping it closer to the head then it means he won't be striking with as much power.

 

 

Why would one try and grab it by the head? Start closing the distance when he lifts it up to strike. If she's too close then he'll either strike her with the pole (which will do **** all) or he'll have to withdraw to gain more space. Or he can change his grip like I said above, but that hurts his ability to make a lethal blow. A seasoned warrior like Stenishok would not even waste time trying to fight a golem one-on-one in this format.

 

 

Where did I say he was slow? When I say he's "not that fast", I mean he's not fast enough to be able to make a non-lethal strike (or at least a strike that doesn't stagger her) and recover before she can grab the weapon in retaliation.

 

 

That's just daft. She's got two arms, two legs, and weighs as much as a car. Considering the conditions of the battle, and her own girth, grappling would be a much more reliable and effective option than punching.

 

Saying "Armor does not slow you down" is as much hyperbole as "you can't jog/sprint/roll/do x in armor". Of course, given that Stenishok is wearing Qunari-style armor any hindrance to his mobility is probably undetectable.

 

The big dumb hammer is another matter.

 

Being hefty and unbalanced doesnt make a weapon "bad" it just shows that it's optimized for a different task, a maul is the perfect weapon to use against a walking stone slab. Are you aware how two handed weapons are swung, you dont swing it like a baseball bat.

 

Its not a point about grabbing the head its the point that she'll probably be hit by the head trying to grab the shaft of the weapon. She is hands down the slowest person in this roster, i dont see her covering that amount of space in the amount of time it would take for Sten to back off and keep his distance. Him not engaging a golem in any other scenario has nothing to do with either of our points.

 

And why not? If he couldnt recover a weapon fast enough after swinging, he'd been killed a long time ago. 

 

No one is talking about how effect one is over the other, you tried to say the thought of her punching is funny, i responded by saying, thats all she's ever done and can do besides grabbing so of course she'll try to punch. As for the effectiveness of grabbing, its kind of hard grabbing someone thats faster than you, has a better reach and is swinging a massive maul.

 

The point about plate armors hindrance ill let slide since he's only wearing the shoulder pieces.

 

I still fail to see why you call it a dumb hammer when it clearly has the potential to be effective, just because you think a weapon needs to be balanced in order to function properly doesnt make that a fact. Its optimized to crush things and thats best done when all the weight of the weapon is on the striking end

[Heimdall]

I just really don't think Sten is much faster than Shale.  Maybe its just the impression given by DA:O's combat mechanics.  If I recall, the attack rate for Shale was faster than for a two hander character.  Nothing in DAs fiction has given me the impression that golems are especially slow, at least not much more so than a warrior with a heavy weapon.