Well Shale is by far a better character, however that doesn't make her...er...it...whatever...a better fighter...we've all taken down golems quite easily during game play so they can be beaten. Sten is a seasoned and well trained warrior, so I'd go with Sten on this occasion.
Well, we beat plenty of Qunari (Even Stens!) in gameplay as well, so...
I just really don't think Sten is much faster than Shale. Maybe its just the impression given by DA:O's combat mechanics. If I recall, the attack rate for Shale was faster than for a two hander character. Nothing in DAs fiction has given me the impression that golems are especially slow, at least not much more so than a warrior with a heavy weapon.
Think about it, a humanoid made of flesh and bone, who's wearing light armor and has been training his entire life with these weapons compared to a being entirely made out of slabs of stone, Sten is going to be significantly faster.
A lot of people against STen seem to think he's a slow brute, but only the game mechanics suggested that and he was just as fast as any other character with a greatsword so that argument is flawed, we can go to the arishok in DA2 who was fast as hell. if we want to use the Comics as a reference (though i dont) he Alistair was barely getting out of the way of the maul, so something made of stone will not have his agility.
Think about it, a humanoid made of flesh and bone, who's wearing light armor and has been training his entire life with these weapons compared to a being entirely made out of slabs of stone, Sten is going to be significantly faster.
A lot of people against STen seem to think he's a slow brute, but only the game mechanics suggested that and he was just as fast as any other character with a greatsword so that argument is flawed, we can go to the arishok in DA2 who was fast as hell. if we want to use the Comics as a reference (though i dont) he Alistair was barely getting out of the way of the maul, so something made of stone will not have his agility.
Well, we are talking about a being moved entirely by magical means here. I'm not making any assumptions just because its stone.
Think about it, a humanoid made of flesh and bone, who's wearing light armor and has been training his entire life with these weapons compared to a being entirely made out of slabs of stone, Sten is going to be significantly faster.
A lot of people against STen seem to think he's a slow brute, but only the game mechanics suggested that and he was just as fast as any other character with a greatsword so that argument is flawed, we can go to the arishok in DA2 who was fast as hell. if we want to use the Comics as a reference (though i dont) he Alistair was barely getting out of the way of the maul, so something made of stone will not have his agility.
The simple fact is a maul like that is also like taking a sledgehammer to stone it will break and the rest of the stone becomes flawed, Shale litter will start falling apart and each hit just makes it worse.
The simple fact is a mail like that is also like taking a sledgehammer to stone it will break and the rest of the stone becomes flawed, Shale litter will start falling apart and each hit just makes it worse.
On the other hand, Shale doesn't feel pain as far as I know. So even if she took one blow, she could concievably power through and deliver a crushing punch to his unarmored torso.
Well, we are talking about a being moved entirely by magical means here. I'm not making any assumptions just because its stone.
Gameplay would suggest they're very slow, since their animations are entirely unique to them, its up to you whether you want to make the assumption that they reflect their speed.
To me personally if they wanted to suggest that Golems weren't slow, they would've shown that in their animations since again, they're unique to Golems. Just from common sense, i automatically think "well rocks are heavy and their animations show them swinging twice every 4 seconds so it seems they intended golems to be slow damage dealers"
Gameplay would suggest they're very slow, since their animations are entirely unique to them, its up to you whether you want to make the assumption that they reflect their speed.
To me personally if they wanted to suggest that Golems weren't slow, they would've showed that in their animations since again, they're unique to Golems. Just from common sense, i automatically think "well rocks are heavy and their animations show them swinging twice every 4 seconds so it seems they intended golems to be slow damage dealers"
Gameplay would suggest Shale has a faster rate of attack than Sten wielding a two hander on normal attacks. Even the other golems aren't slugs once they start hitting (That big windup punch aside), and Shale's shaved down for speed! 
On the other hand, Shale doesn't feel pain as far as I know. So even if she took one blow, she could concievably power through and deliver a crushing punch to his unarmored torso.
Its not a matter of pain even a magical construct would start falling apart when damage is dealt to its structure it becomes unstable and Shale will have to start working out how to move differently. Plus those crystals that are part of its structure will have issues.
Gameplay would suggest Shale has a faster rate of attack than Sten wielding a two hander on normal attacks. Even the other golems aren't slugs once they start hitting (That big windup punch aside), and Shale's shaved down for speed!
Thought the wife of the mage that owned before had the mage cut down her size.
Gameplay would suggest Shale has a faster rate of attack than Sten wielding a two hander on normal attacks. Even the other golems aren't slugs once they start hitting (That big windup punch aside), and Shale's shaved down for speed!
You might want to look at gameplay again
Its not a matter of pain even a magical construct would start falling apart when damage is dealt to its structure it becomes unstable and Shale will have to start working out how to move differently. Plus those crystals that are part of its structure will have issues.
That depends on just how badly the structural damage would be from a single strike, which... honestly we can't say. Those crystals do provide magical protection, don't they?
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
That depends on just how badly the structural damage would be from a single strike, which... honestly we can't say. Those crystals do provide magical protection, don't they?
Magical protection from magic. It's not like Shale gets tele/psychokinesis from them.
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Are you sure it has no armor value *Not in a position to check at the moment*Magical protection from magic. It's not like Shale gets tele/psychokinesis from them.
Magical protection from magic. It's not like Shale gets tele/psychokinesis from them.
Are you sure it has no armor value *Not in a position to check at the moment*
It does have armor value. Along with constitution I believe.
Being hefty and unbalanced doesnt make a weapon "bad" it just shows that it's optimized for a different task, a maul is the perfect weapon to use against a walking stone slab. Are you aware how two handed weapons are swung, you dont swing it like a baseball bat.
Yes, if a weapon is poorly balanced then it is a poor weapon. This is exactly why double-bitted axes and sledgehammers were tools, not weapons. And your question regarding how one swings a two-handed weapon is perplexing, not only because "two-handed" is a term that can be applied to a lot of different weapons that are handled differently, but also because Sten's weapon is a creation of total fiction. Its proper use is entirely up to whoever happens to be in charge of the canon.
Its not a point about grabbing the head its the point that she'll probably be hit by the head trying to grab the shaft of the weapon. She is hands down the slowest person in this roster, i dont see her covering that amount of space in the amount of time it would take for Sten to back off and keep his distance. Him not engaging a golem in any other scenario has nothing to do with either of our points.
If he's gripping it at the end of the handle for maximum leverage, that means it'll take him longer to swing, and it'll be harder to control once he gets it swinging. This makes the task of getting behind its optimal range much easier, even for an opponent like Shale. If he grips it halfway along the shaft (like he did against Alistair) not only is he not swinging with as much power, he is also not able to make full use of the weapon's length.
And why not? If he couldnt recover a weapon fast enough after swinging, he'd been killed a long time ago.
Total generalization. Weapons are different, encounters are different, opponents are different. Using the lighter and more maneuverable Asala against smaller, fleshier enemies is not the same at all.
No one is talking about how effect one is over the other, you tried to say the thought of her punching is funny, i responded by saying, thats all she's ever done and can do besides grabbing so of course she'll try to punch. As for the effectiveness of grabbing, its kind of hard grabbing someone thats faster than you, has a better reach and is swinging a massive maul.
Given that she can rip stones from the earth and throw them, punching is certainly not all that she has done. And if your opponent insists on using a massive maul, it certainly makes it that much easier to grab them.
I still fail to see why you call it a dumb hammer when it clearly has the potential to be effective, just because you think a weapon needs to be balanced in order to function properly doesnt make that a fact. Its optimized to crush things and thats best done when all the weight of the weapon is on the striking end
It is a fact, that's why a weapon like that never saw conventional use, ever. As I said earlier, just because a sledgehammer is optimized for "crushing" things in the same fashion doesn't mean it's optimized for combat.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
It does have armor value. Along with constitution I believe.
It does protect her like another layer of rock would. But it's not magical invisible force field protection. Now people are just making stuff up.
Doesn't the constitution bonus indicate that the magical crystals would help maintain her structural integrity though? I imagine that's what constitution would be in the context of a stone golem anyway. And even if they just provided something between Shale's actual body and Sten's hammer, that's something.It does protect her like another layer of rock would. But it's not magical invisible force field protection. Now people are just making stuff up.
It does protect her like another layer of rock would. But it's not magical invisible force field protection. Now people are just making stuff up.
well it is magical, though I would say it reduces damage instead of providing immunity to it.
You might want to look at gameplay again
Actually, they're right. At base attack speed, the golems have slightly better base attack time, and the time between winding their arms back and delivering the punch is much faster than a warrior striking with a 2 handed weapon.
Though this is of limited relevance, because I'm hardly basing my argument off of gameplay.
Again, for the third time, I have to ask you guys to stop the arguing. I don't want to derail this thread, as now we need votes to get us a winner. Discussion seems to me to be more appropriate after the fight is done. Right now the only discussion I see valuable is if one of you guys were to be convinced by the other's arguments, but I don't see that happening at all right now. So please, take the discussion elsewhere or stop it altogether.
Yes, if a weapon is poorly balanced then it is a poor weapon. This is exactly why double-bitted axes and sledgehammers were tools, not weapons. And your question regarding how one swings a two-handed weapon is perplexing, not only because "two-handed" is a term that can be applied to a lot of different weapons that are handled differently, but also because Sten's weapon is a creation of total fiction. Its proper use is entirely up to whoever happens to be in charge of the canon.
That is completely wrong, balance is dependent on the role of the weapon, an axe or hammer will be top heavy because they really percussion, a sword on the other hand is typically balanced toward the hilt. The term "Two Hander" is used for weapons that require two hands and its a generally accepted term to refer to greatswords, Two Handed just means a weapon that truly requires two hands. The weapon is not myth, this form of the weapon is an exaggeration of real war hammers therefore the most accurate assumption we can draw from is info on how to wield real pole arms. Also double-bitted axes did exist in combat
If he's gripping it at the end of the handle for maximum leverage, that means it'll take him longer to swing, and it'll be harder to control once he gets it swinging. This makes the task of getting behind its optimal range much easier, even for an opponent like Shale. If he grips it halfway along the shaft (like he did against Alistair) not only is he not swinging with as much power, he is also not able to make full use of the weapon's length.
You seem to be relying way too heavily on this idea that she's just going to catch this thing without a doubt, this isnt a baseball, this is a weapon being used by someone who has used weapons their entire life. Holding the weapon halfway down the shaft reduced power, that in no way means the power he's delivering wont be lethal.
Total generalization. Weapons are different, encounters are different, opponents are different. Using the lighter and more maneuverable Asala against smaller, fleshier enemies is not the same at all.
Asala was given to Sten right before he left for the mainland, he could've used any weapon in any order, the fact that he chose a maul (if you want to use the comic as support) supports that he's had training with it. Plus you just made this conclusion that he wont recover the weapon before being hit, what information supports that he's that slow? Again if we go by the comic, it would imply that he was barely missing Alistair let alone Shale
Given that she can rip stones from the earth and throw them, punching is certainly not all that she has done. And if your opponent insists on using a massive maul, it certainly makes it that much easier to grab them.
You mean that one other attack thats clearly just a gameplay mechanic? I just dont understand why you insist on arguing that its not far fetched to assume that she'll try to punch him. How much easier? Again im not following this assumption that weapons are easy to grab from an opponents hands who has the intention of killing you in a one on one duel
It is a fact, that's why a weapon like that never saw conventional use, ever. As I said earlier, just because a sledgehammer is optimized for "crushing" things in the same fashion doesn't mean it's optimized for combat.
Again its an exaggerated fantasy design for an actual weapon, in this world if functions as one despite its size, plus he's a 7ft+ qunari make of that what you will
Again, for the third time, I have to ask you guys to stop the arguing. I don't want to derail this thread, as now we need votes to get us a winner. Discussion seems to me to be more appropriate after the fight is done. Right now the only discussion I see valuable is if one of you guys were to be convinced by the other's arguments, but I don't see that happening at all right now. So please, take the discussion elsewhere or stop it altogether.
Sorry use to GM on fantasy combat and rp type fights on mu*s and the like, hard habbit to break.
That is completely wrong, balance is dependent on the role of the weapon, an axe or hammer will be top heavy because they really percussion, a sword on the other hand is typically balanced toward the hilt. The term "Two Hander" is used for weapons that require two hands and its a generally accepted term to refer to greatswords, Two Handed just means a weapon that truly requires two hands. The weapon is not myth, this form of the weapon is an exaggeration of real war hammers therefore the most accurate assumption we can draw from is info on how to wield real pole arms. Also double-bitted axes did exist in combat
That different weapons have different points of balance does not mean that simply making a hammer top-heavy makes it optimal for combat. If you examine a real polehammer like the Lucerne hammer, a bec de corbin, or a fusstreithammer (weapons that the maul in question doesn't resemble in the slightest) you'll see that the mass of the head is constructed with regards to proper maneuverability.
You seem to be relying way too heavily on this idea that she's just going to catch this thing without a doubt, this isnt a baseball, this is a weapon being used by someone who has used weapons their entire life. Holding the weapon halfway down the shaft reduced power, that in no way means the power he's delivering wont be lethal.
And I have no reason to believe that a single strike delivered in this fashion would in fact be lethal.
Asala was given to Sten right before he left for the mainland, he could've used any weapon in any order, the fact that he chose a maul (if you want to use the comic as support) supports that he's had training with it. Plus you just made this conclusion that he wont recover the weapon before being hit, what information supports that he's that slow? Again if we go by the comic, it would imply that he was barely missing Alistair let alone Shale.
He's not "that slow", it's plain inertia. Gripped for maximum leverage, she only has to take a few paces forward before she's behind the striking distance of the head. In this scenario, he'll either have to change his grip, or withdraw and give ground so he has the space necessary to attack again.
You mean that one other attack thats clearly just a gameplay mechanic? I just dont understand why you insist on arguing that its not far fetched to assume that she'll try to punch him. How much easier? Again im not following this assumption that weapons are easy to grab from an opponents hands who has the intention of killing you in a one on one duel
Being able to pull boulders from any surface is obviously a mechanic, that she can pick up large objects and throw throw them is not. Of course, that likely won't happen on the roof of Fort Drakon.
Grapples and throws are a very important part of armed (and armored) dueling, and longer weapons make these techniques easier to accomplish. While grabbing hold of an opponent's weapon is a very risky move for a normal person, this does not apply to Shale. Her weight, strength, and stone construction allows her to have free reign if she manages to close the distance.
That different weapons have different points of balance does not mean that simply making a hammer top-heavy makes it optimal for combat. If you examine a real polehammer like the Lucerne hammer, a bec de corbin, or a fusstreithammer (weapons that the maul in question doesn't resemble in the slightest) you'll see that the mass of the head is constructed with regards to proper maneuverability.
Your over complicating an issue of fantasy design, this is thedas not Earth and he's not human
And I have no reason to believe that a single strike delivered in this fashion would in fact be lethal.
Where did i say a single strike would no doubt be lethal? Though if she was cracked with the maul over the head, thats easily a done deal
He's not "that slow", it's plain inertia. Gripped for maximum leverage, she only has to take a few paces forward before she's behind the striking distance of the head. In this scenario, he'll either have to change his grip, or withdraw and give ground so he has the space necessary to attack again.
If an attack will leave him vulnerable, why would he attempt it?
Being able to pull boulders from any surface is obviously a mechanic, that she can pick up large objects and throw throw them is not. Of course, that likely won't happen on the roof of Fort Drakon.
Grapples and throws are a very important part of armed (and armored) dueling, and longer weapons make these techniques easier to accomplish. While grabbing hold of an opponent's weapon is a very risky move for a normal person, this does not apply to Shale. Her weight, strength, and stone construction allows her to have free reign if she manages to close the distance.
You completely missed the point of what i said, im not questioning the usefulness of grabs or doubting that she'd attempt it, my point for the third time was originally that you doubted and said that the idea of her punching was laughable, when thats literally 95% of what she's done in the game. Of course she's going to try to punch him occasionally.
Now moving on, again you're assuming that grabbing a weapon from a seasoned fighter is just as simple as sticking your hand out and grabbing it, her reflexes arent fast, she is slow and the person that is swinging this weapon has fought many times before, to just assume that its a simple step by step process is overestimating her capabilities, all the while she is trying not to get hit, close distance, and grab a weapon, yet you're under the impression that grabbing the leader of the qunari is simple.
PS sorry OP but its the final stretch and we're too far into this, its not like we're insulting each other or being belligerent
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