385 réponses à ce sujet

[ShawDawg94]

by way shale older then Zathrian

 

Shale has spent most of those years being dormant or a servant to who ever held her control rod. Zathrian has probably been more productive with his 300.

[DrBlingzle]

Okay I've got to know: Is sten wearing plate armour like he was in DA:O or the arishok armour like he was in Those who speak?

[SerCambria358]

Sten has shown to be impatient. As much as I enjoy his character, he isn't as cunning or perceptive as other fighters we've encountered. We know Leliana isn't just talented in espionage...she stood side by side with the warden battling darkspawn (and others) for a year. She has a varied fighting style, and is very adaptive. I'm not saying it's a definite victory, but the only time(s) I ever seen Sten winning is when he either gets her with a really powerful well placed blow from Asala, or successfully dodgers her "one-two hit" and retaliates (which mind you, isn't very likely/often). I can see Leliana winning in several ways. So I feel my 7:3 victory is justified, Leliana does have an edge in my opinion. If this battle was against Alistair, Loghain, or Aveline...that'd be a different story. It does not matter that he is the Arishok, as honorable it is, it's just a title. And titles don't win battles (as the previous Arishok can tell you).

 

As for Shale, if there's one thing we learned from playing role-playing games, especially Dragon Age, it's that resistances can be negated through debuffing. Morrigan excels in entropic magic, and can negate any magical (and physical) resistance Shale has from these crystals she may or may not have. Also, it's not as if Shale resists the brittling effect from being resistant to cold damage. She'll take less damage from cold spells, but she won't resist the brittling/freezing effect. This is proven in DA:O and DA:2, where enemies who are immune to cold damage can still be frozen/brittled from winter's grasp/cone of cold. As for what other spells can be effective besides cold against Shale; any one of them could. Once Shale is debuffed and brittled, any of the magics could obliterate her- fire, lightening, spirit, nature, whichever. She'll be total weak to withstand it.

 

You seem to understand where I'm coming from with my decisions. Indeed I am assuming on things, but isn't that the rules of the game? At least I provide logical/fair explanations for all my choices. This is, after all, up to creative interpretations. Though I do admit, some choices are easier to make/justify than others.

You seem to be overly hypothesizing based on gameplay however. Gameplay is a different story on its own, regardless to how they performed in your personal playthroughs, lore implies otherwise, thats what i've been judging on since its a stable base of information to debate off of. So basing it off of that, i stick with what i said, Leliana isnt a slouch by any means but her biggest strength is not in one on one combat, while Sten has trained in this area his entire life. Being Arishok is much more than just a title, same way being a boxing champion is much more than a title, it implies that you are superior to those in the same discipline as your own. You say her "one-two" hit as if its as simple as that, Sten wields a 6-7ft greatsword the reach wouldnt make it as simple as that and if she uses her bow, that only postpones him. The strength of archery is found in group combat not duels.

 

Would debuffing work on a golem using crystals?

 

You are providing legitimate reasons IF personal gameplay experience was taken into account, thats why again, i prefer to just stick with what we know through lore and their background

[SerCambria358]

Okay I've got to know: Is sten wearing plate armour like he was in DA:O or the arishok armour like he was in Those who speak?

Id say plate, the shoulder pieces seem more traditional or ceremonial 

[ElementalFury106]

You seem to be overly hypothesizing based on gameplay however. Gameplay is a different story on its own, regardless to how they performed in your personal playthroughs, lore implies otherwise, thats what i've been judging on since its a stable base of information to debate off of. So basing it off of that, i stick with what i said, Leliana isnt a slouch by any means but her biggest strength is not in one on one combat, while Sten has trained in this area his entire life. Being Arishok is much more than just a title, same way being a boxing champion is much more than a title, it implies that you are superior to those in the same discipline as your own. You say her "one-two" hit as if its as simple as that, Sten wields a 6-7ft greatsword the reach wouldnt make it as simple as that and if she uses her bow, that only postpones him. The strength of archery is found in group combat not duels.

 

Would debuffing work on a golem using crystals?

 

You are providing legitimate reasons IF personal gameplay experience was taken into account, thats why again, i prefer to just stick with what we know through lore and their background

 

Actually if I was basing this on actual gameplay-style simulations then Sten would definitely win, as in Origins Rogues don't really dodge or fight with finesse. If it appears that way to you, let me clarify that I'm not intentionally doing that. Sorry, but I don't see Sten being the Arishok as being an advantage here, in this particular battle it's merely a title. Just as Leliana's title of Nightingale doesn't actually provide an advantage in this context. 

 

Also like others said, I doubt Leliana, who is proficient in finesse-combat, would let Sten get her with his mighty swing of a 5-7 foot Asala. Like I said before, he could get a lucky hit, or Leliana can fumble and he can quickly retaliate, but that's a much smaller chance than Leliana systematically wearing him down and taking him out.

 

We can agree to disagree on Sten vs Leliana. I see your points, but they're not winning me over. You see my points, and they don't seem to be winning you over either.

 

As for Shale vs Morrigan, yes I do believe debuffing works on crystals. These crystals provide a magical effect (resistance, specifically) do they not? Isn't Morrigan all about magic? She specializes in debuff/offensive magic, both in lore and in the actual game. So she has a wide arsenal of spells and techniques to subdue Shale. 

 

Also, and this applies to everyone, would you feel the same if it was Morrigan vs Any Golem? I honestly doubt that. A lot of people think Shale has some advantage over other Golems (besides her freedom), she does not. And you bet your ass I believe a witch as powerful as Morrigan can defeat any Golem, Shale included.

[Feybrad]

Fight 1:

Sten. I think, Leliana would get a few Arrows in, but I also think that Sten would have enough of a Brain to cover the really important Areas with Armour. If the Batlefield is as small as posted, he would be able to reach her before he takes too much Hits and then Leliana is on the Run. A run she would loose, since Sten is still far bigger and ONCE he gets even a grasp of her it's game over. However, I admit to it being a close Match.

Unlike...

 

Fight 2:

Shale. I simply fail to see how Morrigan could ever beat Shale. She has NOTHING to beat a Golem, absolutely nothing. She can try to run, fly away, but Golems never sleep, never tire. Morrigan could flee to the Ends of the World, but Shale would follow. And one Day, she would catch up. And then Morrigan would be squished.

[Aolbain]

Fight 1 - Sten. Unlike Lelianas earlier victims, Sten is an actuall warrior, which I think will win out.

Fight 2 - Morrigan. The witch has so many advantages that I see no way Shale can win this.

[NoForgiveness]

Also, and this applies to everyone, would you feel the same if it was Morrigan vs Any Golem? I honestly doubt that. A lot of people think Shale has some advantage over other Golems (besides her freedom), she does not. And you bet your ass I believe a witch as powerful as Morrigan can defeat any Golem, Shale included.

 

Not saying this would allow shale to win but it is not a normal golem. That dude did experiments on it, which allows for the crystals and generally being better then other golems.

[SerCambria358]

Actually if I was basing this on actual gameplay-style simulations then Sten would definitely win, as in Origins Rogues don't really dodge or fight with finesse. If it appears that way to you, let me clarify that I'm not intentionally doing that. Sorry, but I don't see Sten being the Arishok as being an advantage here, in this particular battle it's merely a title. Just as Leliana's title of Nightingale doesn't actually provide an advantage in this context. 

 

Also like others said, I doubt Leliana, who is proficient in finesse-combat, would let Sten get her with his mighty swing of a 5-7 foot Asala. Like I said before, he could get a lucky hit, or Leliana can fumble and he can quickly retaliate, but that's a much smaller chance than Leliana systematically wearing him down and taking him out.

 

We can agree to disagree on Sten vs Leliana. I see your points, but they're not winning me over. You see my points, and they don't seem to be winning you over either.

 

As for Shale vs Morrigan, yes I do believe debuffing works on crystals. These crystals provide a magical effect (resistance, specifically) do they not? Isn't Morrigan all about magic? She specializes in debuff/offensive magic, both in lore and in the actual game. So she has a wide arsenal of spells and techniques to subdue Shale. 

 

Also, and this applies to everyone, would you feel the same if it was Morrigan vs Any Golem? I honestly doubt that. A lot of people think Shale has some advantage over other Golems (besides her freedom), she does not. And you bet your ass I believe a witch as powerful as Morrigan can defeat any Golem, Shale included.

Then lets subtract my point about the Arishok for the sake of moving on, that still leaves all the other details standing which you've yet to explain away. I never doubted Lelianas ability to be agile but to conclude that her agility will allow her to dodge all attacks, only being hit if luck is involved, is a bit ridiculous dont you think? If that were the case, any rogue with her level of agility can dodge any qunari warrior. I dont buy that, i understand that its a factor in her skill set but agility alone does not win fights when you're facing someone that outmatches you in skill,strength, experience, and discipline. All this achieved from a LIFE TIME of training, while Leliana was learning politics, Sten was already battle hardened, he's seen people with her level of agility before, especially in Seheron with local natives. So to say "i doubt he'll get her with a 5-7ft asala" is just glossing over his entire set of skills by saying agility beats all as long as luck isnt involved.

 

As for Shale she is unique to those golems and as for the crystals, i dont think they fall into the same field of magic, ill have to look this up. 

[ElementalFury106]

Not saying this would allow shale to win but it is not a normal golem. That dude did experiments on it, which allows for the crystals and generally being better then other golems.

 

Maybe the crystals are more refined, but it's not as if other Golems don't have crystals. And they can/were defeated. Shale is no different, and Morrigan is a very powerful witch on top of that. I feel like it's a pretty clear victory.

[ElementalFury106]

Then lets subtract my point about the Arishok for the sake of moving on, that still leaves all the other details standing which you've yet to explain away. I never doubted Lelianas ability to be agile but to conclude that her agility will allow her to dodge all attacks, only being hit if luck is involved, is a bit ridiculous dont you think? If that were the case, any rogue with her level of agility can dodge any qunari warrior. I dont buy that, i understand that its a factor in her skill set but agility alone does not win fights when you're facing someone that outmatches you in skill,strength, experience, and discipline. All this achieved from a LIFE TIME of training, while Leliana was learning politics, Sten was already battle hardened, he's seen people with her level of agility before, especially in Seheron with local natives. So to say "i doubt he'll get her with a 5-7ft asala" is just glossing over his entire set of skills by saying agility beats all as long as luck isnt involved.

 

As for Shale she is unique to those golems and as for the crystals, i dont think they fall into the same field of magic, ill have to look this up. 

 

Literally in the end what could Sten do besides swing his sword? Nothing. It takes time to swing a sword as big as his, and someone like Leliana can definitely see it coming sooner than others. I just don't see him getting her, no matter how good of a warrior he is. This literally comes down to a scoundrel wearing down a warrior, then capitalizing the first chance they get. It's not honorable, and Sten may be one of the best warriors in the Dragon Age universe, but Leliana definitely has the advantage since Sten's fighting is so limited. Therefore, I feel 7:3 fits well.

[Pateu]

Aveline was an officer in Cailan's army, not a random soldier, and automatically more experienced than Alistair by virtue of being about 10 years older.

 

Also your analysis of Alistair's abilities and feats doesn't work for everyone because not everybody made Alistair king, or brought him along to kill dragons and Broodmothers (or even killed those dragons). I mean in that case you can also say that Aveline killed a High Dragon, a Forgotten One, Pride Demons, Rock Wraiths hell even the Arishok if you took the full-on brawl approach. 

 

Alistair dueled Sten, The Arishok, and won. ( and that's canon, regardless of your ingame choices )

 

Aveline's sidekick feats are instantly redundant.

 

And what experience does Aveline even have? She was an officer in an army lead by a moron, who knew nothing about tactics or defending a fortress.

 

She relies on Hawke to clean up her mess most of the time.

 

 

 

more experienced than Alistair by virtue of being about 10 years older.

 

The Warden is a youngling in most origins, doesn't stop him from wrecking everyone.

[TheLittleBird]

Okay I've got to know: Is sten wearing plate armour like he was in DA:O or the arishok armour like he was in Those who speak?

 

I'd say this one:

Spoiler

 

Sorry, that was a bad joke.

Well, considering he is the Arishok at this point, and he is wearing the same armour as DA2's Arishok in the comics, then I'd say it's pretty safe to say that his armor in those comics is the one intended for an Arishok. Now, considering the Arishok had been preparing for the attack on Kirkwall for years in Dragon Age II, the possibility of this armour being the one intended for combat is also pretty high. 

So I'd say the Arishok armour he was wearing in the comics. 

[SerCambria358]

Literally in the end what could Sten do besides swing his sword? Nothing. It takes time to swing a sword as big as his, and someone like Leliana can definitely see it coming sooner than others. I just don't see him getting her, no matter how good of a warrior he is. This literally comes down to a scoundrel wearing down a warrior, then capitalizing the first chance they get. It's not honorable, and Sten may be one of the best warriors in the Dragon Age universe, but Leliana definitely has the advantage since Sten's fighting is so limited. Therefore, I feel 7:3 fits well.

You're overestimating the ability to dodge while underestimating the ability to time attacks, nothing about Leliana has implied that she can dodge at these levels let alone consistently without being hit at all. Thats also assuming sten is slow, which is not said or hinted to at all, in fact using a sword for your entire life would imply that it wouldnt hinder him as much as you seem to think. 

 

You say Stens skills are limited but i say the opposite, Lelianas one and only weapon is agility, Sten outmatches her in every other facet. I dont understand this notion that sten cant catch her, he isnt some mindless brute that swings a club, he's a seasoned warrior who would clearly know that timing is key to beating someone with speed, which again is her one and only advantage in this fight. If a boxer went in to the ring against a champion who was stronger bigger more experienced and had better technique, speed alone will not save them from being knocked out. Same thing in this scenario

[SerCambria358]

Alistair dueled Sten, The Arishok, and won. ( and that's canon, regardless of your ingame choices )

 

Aveline's sidekick feats are instantly redundant.

 

And what experience does Aveline even have? She was an officer in an army lead by a moron, who knew nothing about tactics or defending a fortress.

 

 

 

 

The Warden is a youngling in most origins, doesn't stop him from wrecking everyone.

Thats only canon to Dark Horse comics

[TheLittleBird]

Thats only canon to Dark Horse comics

 

But Alistair's strength in battle against the Arishok in the comics is likely canon in every world state, provided he's not dead or the drunk version of himself.

[SerCambria358]

But Alistair's strength in battle against the Arishok in the comics is likely canon in every world state, provided he's not dead or the drunk version of himself.

No doubt but the outcome is skewed due to it just being a story by Dark Horse. Think about it, if Sten won, the plot would be shattered, its clearly for story telling purposes rather than it being a legitimate telling of their capabilities

[TheLittleBird]

No doubt but the outcome is skewed due to it just being a story by Dark Horse. Think about it, if Sten won, the plot would be shattered, its clearly for story telling purposes rather than it being a legitimate telling of their capabilities

 

You could say that about a lot of things, but the fact remains that this is the story as it stands, meaning that Alistair's strength in it is considered a part of canon, whether or not it was for story purposes.

[SerCambria358]

You could say that about a lot of things, but the fact remains that this is the story as it stands, meaning that Alistair's strength in it is considered a part of canon, whether or not it was for story purposes.

Im not doubting Alistair's skill, im doubting the outcome of the fight

[NoForgiveness]

You're overestimating the ability to dodge while underestimating the ability to time attacks, nothing about Leliana has implied that she can dodge at these levels let alone consistently without being hit at all. Thats also assuming sten is slow, which is not said or hinted to at all, in fact using a sword for your entire life would imply that it wouldnt hinder him as much as you seem to think. 

 

You say Stens skills are limited but i say the opposite, Lelianas one and only weapon is agility, Sten outmatches her in every other facet. I dont understand this notion that sten cant catch her, he isnt some mindless brute that swings a club, he's a seasoned warrior who would clearly know that timing is key to beating someone with speed, which again is her one and only advantage in this fight. If a boxer went in to the ring against a champion who was stronger bigger more experienced and had better technique, speed alone will not save them from being knocked out. Same thing in this scenario

 

/sigh... agility isn't her only strength... she's a lot more cunning and perceptive, her bow/a dagger is perfect for hitting his weak spots(eye hole, neck, arm pit, back of the knee etc), sten literally doubts every single person in thedas(except the warden) which means he underestimates them, Also  no matter how good you are with it, a greatsword is slower then most other weapons. The armor makes him slow compared to Leliana as well.

 

Besides, has game of thrones taught you nothing? I can name at least 3 fights in which the quicker/less armored person wins or would win if not for some outside intervention. In fact now that I think about it there isn't any one on one fights in which the rogueyer person doesn't win(or the line about outside intervention)... except jorah vs the dothraki. but im not sure if the dothraki are rogues.....

[Bond]

F1 - Leliana

F2 - Morrigan

[SerCambria358]

/sigh... agility isn't her only strength... she's a lot more cunning and perceptive, her bow/a dagger is perfect for hitting his weak spots(eye hole, neck, arm pit, back of the knee etc), sten literally doubts every single person in thedas(except the warden) which means he underestimates them, Also  no matter how good you are with it, a greatsword is slower then most other weapons. The armor makes him slow compared to Leliana as well.

 

Besides, has game of thrones taught you nothing? I can name at least 3 fights in which the quicker/less armored person wins or would win if not for some outside intervention. In fact now that I think about it there isn't any one on one fights in which the rogueyer person doesn't win(or the line about outside intervention)... except jorah vs the dothraki. but im not sure if the dothraki are rogues.....

It isnt her only strength, but its the only strength that'll be of any use in this fight. He may underestimate people, that doesnt mean he wont fight to kill. Yes he would be slower, but that seems to be the only point anyone can make and again why would that automatically make him lose? He's a smart fighter unlike those in game of thrones and if you want a quote from one of the best fighters in that universe here you go "your friends dead, Meryn Trant's not, caus Trant had armor on, and a big f***ing sword"

 

Being serious though, you cant compare those fights because they arent under the same circumstances nor do the characters have to same strengths as these two characters.

 

When someone outmatches you in experience, skill, and power, speed alone will not win you the fight. hitting the slits in armor in a one on one fight with a bow is ridicuosly hard, to deduce the fight to being just her shooting them is a bit much. Especially since nothing beyond gameplay would imply that she's this all mighty archer, being a bard doesnt give her Legolas level marksmanship 

[Feybrad]

By the Way, isn't it funny how most of the Votes boil down to "the tough Warriors will win" vs. "the agile Girls will win"

 

I would've thought of a better Word than "girls", but there isn't much else that Leliana and Morrigan have in common. I still think, they would both loose, though.

[PillarBiter]

Fight 1: It will come down to: Will leliana be able to put an arrow accurate enough into sten to stop him before he reaches her, and if he reaches her, will he have the strength to strike accurately and strengthfully enough to finish it with one blow?

 

My thinking is that leliana will not be able to pierce the armor of sten in a matteringly enough way to stop sten before he reaches her. And even if leliana could dodge, the physical prowess of sten is too overwhelming to keep dodging in close combat.

 

Sten would be damaged from near-fatal shots, but sten wins.

Sten 75%chance to win

Leliana 10% chance to win

 

 

Fight 2: It'll boil down to Morrigan's cunning and attacking pattern. Shale is pretty resistant to magic, so morrigan can not win by attacking with normal magic. Since shale's tactics boil down to 'get close and squish', the fight will depend on the use of the shapeshifter abilities. None of the shapes from DAO really have a chance of winning, since they are all physical fighters, and shale wins that hands down, except for maybe the swarm. THAT is morrigan's only chance. Physical attacks are basically pointless against the swarm. She WOULD win, if not for shale's last trump card: brilliant crystals. They add element damage, and thus obliterate the swarm.

 

As much as I'd liek morrigan to win, she has very little chance to win from shale.... by DA:O standards.

 

HOWEVER! I do believe a sorceress as powerful as morrigan has a LOT more tricks up her sleeve than we have seen in DA:O. She undoubtfully has many old magics which would be able to hurt, kill, seal, poison, desoul, ...etc the golem. By these standards, the %s are switched around.

Shale 90% chance to win

DA:O Morrigan 10% chance to win.

 

Shale: 10%

non-DA:O morrigan: 90%

[NoForgiveness]

It isnt her only strength, but its the only strength that'll be of any use in this fight. He may underestimate people, that doesnt mean he wont fight to kill. Yes he would be slower, but that seems to be the only point anyone can make and again why would that automatically make him lose? He's a smart fighter unlike those in game of thrones and if you want a quote from one of the best fighters in that universe here you go "your friends dead, Meryn Trant's not, caus Trant had armor on, and a big f***ing sword"

 

Being serious though, you cant compare those fights because they arent under the same circumstances nor do the characters have to same strengths as these two characters.

 

When someone outmatches you in experience, skill, and power, speed alone will not win you the fight. hitting the slits in armor in a one on one fight with a bow is ridicuosly hard, to deduce the fight to being just her shooting them is a bit much. Especially since nothing beyond gameplay would imply that she's this all mighty archer, being a bard doesnt give her Legolas level marksmanship 

 

Well we don't know either ones experience levels completely, so it cant really be proven that he has more. Skill I would say goes to Leliana, using a bow is much harder then swinging a sword and requires a person to have plenty of skill. raw power vs agility is kind of something that has been fought over for like all of human history(at least up till guns took over) so in the end id say those 2 negate each other. Perception, I would give to Leliana because being a bard pretty much depends on it. She has said shes mastered the ability to judge and manipulate others and while puppy dog eyes wont work on sten, Im willing to bet she could make him think she weaker then she appears(overplaying her wounds etc). Combine that with Stens underestimating thing and that seems like a big weakness(or strength for her). Also there is the matter of rage... sten does have the capability of loosing himself to it, meaning all judgment goes out the window. While Leliana is in perfect control of her emotions(again part of being a bard). She could even purposefully draw that rage out and Im sure she could find a way to do so.