51 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistress9Nine]

-Flemeth abused Morrigan.

Yes, she did, in the fade during the Circle tower, Fake Flemeth smacks Morrigan across her face and Morrigan makes a comment how now the demon is acting more believable, and there are other tidbits about this as you get to know her, and even how she talks about Morrigan in the beginning of DA:O very disrespectfully.

It's a medieval setting, parents hit their children. They used to do it a couple of decades ago, they still do it now. Morrigan even comments that she raised her well and that she is thankful for such an upbringing and the lessons it taught. 

 

 

-Morrigan is really "Chaotic Good"

There are moments when you can see she has a heart, not just in her ability to actually fall in love with the PC, but also how various characters in the games say a Mabari is a good judge of character and Dog likes Morrigan,  and despite what she says you can tell she  likes the dog too, seeming geniuinely happy to see Dog in Witch Hunt. More then that, alot of the problem is the abuse she's suffered at Flemeths hands that have warped her sense of right and wrong. 

What does Morrigan being good, have anything to do with Flemeth being bad? If Morrigan were really that good and she knew Flemeth was up to something, why wouldn't she directly tell the Warden to against her wishes? I'm not buying.

 

 

Firstly, if she really cared about stopping the Blight, would not Flemeth go save Duncan and some of the Senior grey wardens? Rather then noob Wardens? One would think, but Morrigan answers this herself later in the game: The Dark Ritual would only work on new wardens where the taint hasn't fully taken hold yet. Which brings up the notion Flemeth deliberately took  inexperienced wardens to further her own plot. Using Morrigan to become impregnated with old god baby, which them Flemeth would have taken Morrigan's body and raised the child for unknown ends.

 

Morrigan did not know much of anything, and said Flemeth never told her much of anything, except what to do, presumably if she was rebellious flemeth hit her and pushed her into line.

She was no doubt out for something else. But why go to all the trouble with noobs who could die any time? And for what? The possibility that they get to Archdeamon, Morrigan will survive the adventure, no Grey Warden releif is going to come from Orlais, the Warden will accept the Dark Ritual and succeed in killing the Archdeamon? Those are way too many assumptions to make. Flemeth must be very pissed at my Warden for not accepting Morrigan's offer after she went into all that planning.

 

And if the goal was not the Dark Ritual, then your whole theory collapses.

 

 

As the game progresses and Morrigan researches her Mother she becomes 'disturbed' at what she finds out, of the course the worst of it is Witch Hunt when she tells the Warden to Hunt Flemeth because of how bad she really is, though she does not elaborate.

Morrigan is not an innocent little girl. She uses guile many times to play to your emotions, such as acting abhorred at what she finds out about Flemeth. Morrigan just the same as Flemeth, they are both out for themselves.

[Halfdan The Menace]

I am fairly sure Flemeth is behind the disappearance of Hawke and The Warden.

Quite possible, she seem like a fortune-teller to both of them.

[Googleness]

Flemeth in DA2 got Qunary style Hornes "haircut" which made me think she made the Qun

otoh she is a dragon, probably one of the old gods scared crap about becoming and arch demon? 

 

otoh she is revived on Mythal shrine makes me think she might be an elvish god as well maybe the tevinter dragons were part of the elvish gods but in different name?

 

only thing for sure is my Warden kicked her ass with blood magic

[myahele]

What if Flemeth DID save some of the other wardens, but used them as bait to lead them away so that our warden and Alistair can go to Lothering?

Morrigan did say Flemeth gave " the darkspawn something else to sniff" since they can also sense wardens.

[AltanIV]

She is a dragon, she can fly away from the blight.

 

Wrong and Right. She could be a Dragon, but it is not an absolute truth, even if she told Hawke "Perhaps I am a Dragon" (don't remember the exact line but it's something like that), she could be jesting there. It's just one out of many theories about Flemeth's nature.

True she could fly away from the blight, but for how long ? And considering DAI, would the Veil Tears still have happened if the Blight had not been dealt with that fast ?

 

What if Flemeth DID save some of the other wardens, but used them as bait to lead them away so that our warden and Alistair can go to Lothering?

Morrigan did say Flemeth gave " the darkspawn something else to sniff" since they can also sense wardens.

 

 

That's an interesting theory, I guess she wouldn't mind doing such a thing.

[AltanIV]

Flemeth's an Old God who took the form of an old swamp woman to take part in world events and eventually conceive children whom he/she hoped would be able to fight the corrupted Archdemons in order to obtain power for him/herself. Probably a rival of the other Old Gods.

 

That is your truth but not necessarily the truth. And as long as the devs don't confirm or deny it (or any other theories about Flemeth) I won't take it as a given.

[Wolfen09]

like the emphasis on "hard" there

[Fizzie Panda]

Here's my theory:

Spoiler

 
Flemeth is bad... really, really, bad. Morrigan talks about her not being truely human, and immortality not being her real goal. So were aware by the end of Witch Hunt that Flemeth has something sooo bad even Morrigan is concerned.
 
But then again, Morrigan isn't really that bad. My warden romanced her, and it felt genuine. By the end of Witch Hunt you can choose to go with Morrigan after convincing her that you want to.

 

I don't think Morrigan will willingly help Flemeth in any way. Whatever her plans are.

Also, what if Flemeth is the main villain of DA: I?

[schall_und_rauch]

98.999% of this thread is speculation. No one here is saying that it's hard truth...

I agree. We don't know her agenda, we don't know her origins.
And it's impossible to tell if somebody is good or evil if you don't know their agenda or motives for an action.

Judging from a purely consequentialist viewpoint, she is good, because her actions have good consequences (saving the warden, Hawk and furthering the end of the blight).

[KaiserShep]

Firstly, if she really cared about stopping the Blight, would not Flemeth go save Duncan and some of the Senior grey wardens? Rather then noob Wardens? One would think, but Morrigan answers this herself later in the game: The Dark Ritual would only work on new wardens where the taint hasn't fully taken hold yet. Which brings up the notion Flemeth deliberately took  inexperienced wardens to further her own plot. Using Morrigan to become impregnated with old god baby, which them Flemeth would have taken Morrigan's body and raised the child for unknown ends.

 

While it's true that she was also looking to further her own goals, Duncan and the other Wardens at Ostagar were also in the thick of battle, so to be fair, our Warden and Alistair were also the easier targets to save, since they were at the top of the tower. I couldn't say what Flemeth's chances would be to successfully extract a Warden or two from the battlefield while darkspawn were raiding the fortress, but I think it would be safe to assume that her chances are much better when a couple of them are up in a very elevated position among just a handful of darkspawn. I guess the real question would be: if Flemeth did not have any plans for the soul of any Old God, would she have still saved the Warden? I guess we'll never know for certain, much like we'll never really know if she saved Hawke & co. before thinking that perhaps she could use them to smuggle the amulet to Sundermount.

 

 

You and me both pal. It just seems like she fits in with them being MIA because they are in debt to her.

 

Assuming that Flemeth honors her deals, Hawke is no longer in debt to her after delivering the amulet.

[AltanIV]

98.999% of this thread is speculation. No one here is saying that it's hard truth...

 

I know, that was just my way of saying that I find it a little too easy for her to be an old God, or at least not a known Old God. Something similar maybe or even a human who transcended it's own condition.

[Char]

I prefer to see Flemeth in a similar light to Morrigan- a morally grey character, with a lot of power and a strong agenda of her own. If she turns out to be truly evil, rather than simply manipulative I confess I'll be a little disappointed.

[KaiserShep]

I prefer to see Flemeth in a similar light to Morrigan- a morally grey character, with a lot of power and a strong agenda of her own. If she turns out to be truly evil, rather than simply manipulative I confess I'll be a little disappointed.

So would I. Having her turn out to be this diabolical sorceress that was really doing all of this for some nefarious shenanigans seems a little too obvious for my tastes. I'd much rather she remain perpetually enigmatic than have her turn out to be this wicked thing that we may end up having to kill once and for all at the end of this series.

[Helios969]

98.999% of this thread is speculation. No one here is saying that it's hard truth...

I think you could say that about nearly every thread on BSN (Bioware Speculative Nonsense.)

[Trikormadenadon]

I've never thought of Flemeth as benevolent...I just don't want her to be bad.  I was "meh" about her in DA:O, but I really liked her a lot in DA2, mostly because of Captain Janeway's voice acting.  I'll be disappointed if she turns out to be the root of all evil, but I agree with the OP that it would be plausible.

I on the other hand have fully expected Flemeth to be the root of all evil since her first appearance in DA:O. I loved that they used Kate Mulgrew (sp?) as the VA, but she is such a good actor I could tell she was up to something even though she was acting in the Warden's best interest simply from the inflections in her voice. Thus it did not surprise me one bit when I learned she was going to do what she planned for Morrigan and thus it would not surprise me if she's the cause of the fade rift.

[bairdduvessa]

I on the other hand have fully expected Flemeth to be the root of all evil since her first appearance in DA:O. I loved that they used Kate Mulgrew (sp?) as the VA, but she is such a good actor I could tell she was up to something even though she was acting in the Warden's best interest simply from the inflections in her voice. Thus it did not surprise me one bit when I learned she was going to do what she planned for Morrigan and thus it would not surprise me if she's the cause of the fade rift.

i think she is actually an amoral "person" as we define morals who generally wants the world to survive

[Dayze]

Duty must come first; so was Flemeth joining with a demon vengeance or duty?

Flemeth’s mother was one of the “ancient elves”?  Though I once thought of the possibility that Flemeth’s mom could have been “The Shadow Woman”….

That’s why she’s not even truly human?  She’s half human, half elve?

As for villain or not; it’s not too amazing for people who meet her to end up hanging in pieces from tree’s and morgan had to watch as she would “make use” of men and that it wasn’t something your truly would not want to see and not in the “ew my mom is having happy fun time with random strangers” kind of way.

Whatever her goals; Flemeth is pretty far from being a nice person.

Though is she a villain in the sense of making evil plans, etc….well she has plans and she seems to be evil but I’m not sure if the “plans” are themselves evil.

Aside from being a sociopath I’m not sure if she’s an actively large scale kind of evil.

[CapivaRasgor]

I don't see Flemeth as an antagonist, but as some mentioned before, I don't see her as benevolent. She is clearly moving with the intent of furthering her own agenda which we now know may have something to do with the dragons, anything more is purely speculation.

But as I mentioned in other threads, I do believe that everything regarding her involvement in the games was planned by her beforehand like Morrigan getting her grimoires, the Dark Ritual, heck even her own "death". I speculate that her motives may have something to do with saving the Old Gods from the darkspawn cycle. In this case the Old Gods being dragon.. mages? Again, purely speculation as there is little concrete evidence that dragons are sapient in the first place.

[Morroian]

Yavana tells Alistair what Morrigan rejected was a gift. Maybe the Flemeth we met in the Wilds was told that it was a duty by her 'mother' who was also Flemeth. Flemeth possesses her own daughters... Flemeth daughter of Flemeth. 

 

I'm saying that the Witch we met isn't the original. She's just a copy in a long line of copies like Morrigan tells us.

 

I wonder though if its not exactly imprinting her personality but more like giving her daughters her memories, so their personality is still there but they have Flemeth's accumulated knowledge.

[CapivaRasgor]

I wasn't sure if I should post this on a new thread or in here and since creating a new thread seemed unnecessary I decided to post here.

So, after replaying Origins and re-reading the comics I've come up with a speculative theory regarding Flemeth and her motives. I think this will be a long post so I'll say up front what I thought: what if Flemeth is in fact a dragon? Meaning, her dragon form is her real one, the human appearance just shells in which she can cast her conscience or assume to blend in among humans? I know that Flemeth being an Old God has been discussed in the past, but now we have new information on the nature of dragons thanks to Yavana. I'll try to organize my reasons for

thinking so in topics below:

1. Could the Old Gods be in reality just really powerful High Dragons?

Back on Origins there were two codex entries that hinted that both the Old Gods could have been in reality High Dragons of an unknown magnitude and that the dragons themselves seemed to be more complex in terms of intelligence than beasts(http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults an
http://dragonage.wikia.com/ wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Old_Gods). It was even proved that their blood had special properties, as one needed to drink it in order to become a Reaver. This clearly pointed that dragons were at the very least different from the other creatures from Thedas.

On the comics it's also hinted that dragons could be indeed more intelligent than the beasts they seem to be, as one dragon stood down on Yavana's command, and it looked like she was speaking to it in another language. Could that be ancient draconic language or just a spell she recited to calm the dragon? Yavana herself also mentions that her main objective was to wake ancient dragons from their hibernation, which I point to be very similar to the slumber of the Old Gods down in the underground.

My point in this matter is: could dragons have once been a sapient species, the Old Gods being to them as the mages are to the other mortals? If so is their apparent receding to more bestial an instinctive behaviour a product of centuries of isolation and near exctinction?

2. Flemeth's "gift" - i.e possessing her daughters - similarity with the archdemons' soul

transference.

It's well known that when an archdemon dies it's soul travels to the nearest darkspawn through the taint. The taint itself is carried in the blood of both the darkspawn and the Grey Wardens, what do I mean by this? Flemeth supposedly uses a magical ritual to possess the body of her daughters when her current body is old and weak, now think, why does it have to be specifically from her daughters? It's not like she can't sneak in a Circle ofMagi and possess an accomplished female Enchanter there, or perhaps trick a powerful apostate into becoming her
vessel, her being a shapeshifter makes the former possible and her manipulative nature also makes the latter a possibility. Why does it have to be one of her daughters? The only explanation I see is that process must involve "blood compatibility" in some way.

Remember when I speculated that Old Gods are in fact powerful dragons? And assuming this holds true, then recall that the Archdemon's(a tainted Old God) soul travel to the nearest tainted creature through the taint...through the blood. Wouldn't Flemeth's ritual be similar? She concieves a child with her mortal form and then, later in life when the girl has grown and developed her powers, possesses the child through their blood connection.

Why else she would need to use specifically a daughter for the ritual?

3. Flemeth's origin, is she really an abomination? Or something entirely different?

Let me elaborate, both versions of Flemeth's origin - Leliana's and Morrigan's - involve her dealing with spirits/demons and becoming an abomination(or something very similar). What if instead of a creature of the Fade,the original Flemeth became "possessed" by the soul of a dragon? Perhaps even an Old God? She could have drank the blood of a dying dragon and then take their soul into herself, and due to the fact that her mortal body ages and withers she would eventually need to transfer her essence into another being. Or it could also be that a dragon/Old God took
the form of a mortal, named itself "Flemeth", and created the myth to conceal it's existence.

Plus, Morrigan mentions that Flemeth isn't even truly a human and appears visibly distressed of what she is in reality, and Morrigan isn't easily affected.

4. Flemeth's motive: restore the dragonkind to their former selves.

Flemeth rescued the Warden and sent Morrigan with them with the clear intention of preserving the soul of Urthemiel through the Dark Ritual, her reasons for doing so and Morrigan's intentions with the child never being clear to us.

When the comics came it was revealed that Flemeth had indeed many daughters and not the lineage of Flemeth and a daughter as originally believed. One of them, Yavana, also had a personal agenda that involve dragons, is it really a coincidence? I don't think so.

Yavana mentions that dragons are important to the world, she also alludes to a time in which they ruled the skies and that the Veil was non-existent. Now, since then the dragons have obviously lost their supposed dominance but some of them survived by hibernating, Yavana's plan seemingly was to awaken them from their slumber with the help of someone with dragon's blood, she even awakened a few herself maybe thanks to the dragon's blood that she could have herself due to being a daughter of Flemeth(this one is a bit of a stretch, I know).

In the comics we also hear from Sten the Qunari version of King Callenhad's tale: in order to gain the strength to fight for Ferelden's unification he drank the blood of a dying dragon, whose location was revealed to him by a witch. Could this witch be Flemeth or one of her daughters? My guess is that, whatever it is that Flemeth plans,

it has something to do with dragons and I speculate that it involves her restoring their kind to its former place in

the world.

--END--

So, if you guys kept up until this point, what do you think of this?

[Han Shot First]

It is a rather obscure tidbit of information, only appearing in banter between Shale and Morrigan.

 

You can find all the banter here: http://dragonage.wik.../Shale/Dialogue

 

I also wanted to add that another proof that Morrigan suffered abuse from Flemeth is in the dwarf commoner origin, where the PC mother abused the warden. When you meet your mother in the royal palace, and she treats you like the drunken old bat she is, then Morrigan says something like "Looks like we have more in common than i thought".

 

Not to mention Flemeth using Morrigan when she was a little girl as bait to lure pursuing Templars into traps. Any one of those ambushes could have gone wrong and ended with Morrigan dragged off to a Tower or killed.