114 réponses à ce sujet

[Deebo305]

Because you set the optimization of combat effectiveness as a goal.

I just want to make sure that we state all of your assumptions.

I believe Exile means the effectiveness of traps were rather minimal when a party of mages and warriors could clear the field faster and more effectively

Of course that just my experience with Origin archery, in DA2 they were damage dealing gods quite honestly

[Sylvius the Mad]

I believe Exile means the effectiveness of traps were rather minimal when a party of mages and warriors could clear the field faster and more effectively

I suspect that is what he means. But I want to make sure that everyone (including In Exile) is aware what definition he's using, and that that isn't the only definition available.

[In Exile]

Because you set the optimization of combat effectiveness as a goal.

I just want to make sure that we state all of your assumptions.

 

The abilities only exist for the purpose of combat effectiveness. If there was any other purpose to them, you'd see a different focus from me. 

[Realmzmaster]

What does a better crafting system mean? I know what my idea of a better crafting system is and what it is not. The crafting of runes in Awakenings was just a tedious affair. The DAO system eventually boiled down to no more than DA2's system of shopping once the unlimited supply vendors were found and fast travel made it easy to get around. 

 

I found the crafting system in Kingdoms of Amalur more compelling than either DA2 or DAO. If DAI has crafting akin to that system I will be satisfied. The Amalur system is not perfect but I like it. The protagonist can readily collect the necessary ingredients for potions (experimentation can be done for potions or buy the recipes) and gems.  Weapons and armor can be salvaged to make new weapons or armor.

 

The crafting systems in Fallout and Fallout:NV are also very good.

[Googleness]

yes we need more crafting options... can we use runes on our stakes to make the pyre go bigger?

we need more dakka in the stake's section of the game.. how else can we burn so many heretics?

[Captain Bonecold]

It funny to see enemies fall into your trap. And only to use a fire spell on a grease trap. And then everything is amazing.

[In Exile]

What does a better crafting system mean? I know what my idea of a better crafting system is and what it is not. The crafting of runes in Awakenings was just a tedious affair. The DAO system eventually boiled down to no more than DA2's system of shopping once the unlimited supply vendors were found and fast travel made it easy to get around. 

 

I found the crafting system in Kingdoms of Amalur more compelling than either DA2 or DAO. If DAI has crafting akin to that system I will be satisfied. The Amalur system is not perfect but I like it. The protagonist can readily collect the necessary ingredients for potions (experimentation can be done for potions or buy the recipes) and gems.  Weapons and armor can be salvaged to make new weapons or armor.

 

The crafting systems in Fallout and Fallout:NV are also very good.

 

There wasn't much to praise about the game, but I liked Bound by Flame's armour modification approach (particularly since you visually modified the armour as well).

[Trikormadenadon]

There wasn't much to praise about the game, but I liked Bound by Flame's armour modification approach (particularly since you visually modified the armour as well).

I have not played the game yet but that sounds like it could all sorts of potential. Would be nice to see something similar in DA.

[Fast Jimmy]

Real life is better balanced.

I know this was said jokingly, but to be honest, life balances itself out. A gold bar isn't worth squat in DA2. In real life, it would under normal circumstances, but not if the value of gold were to disappear overnight (and replaced, say, with a shortage where food was a premium).

More reactive game economies are something I dream about whenever people ask me what I want for Christmas.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The abilities only exist for the purpose of combat effectiveness. If there was any other purpose to them, you'd see a different focus from me.

I don't agree with your assessment. For two reasons.

First, if I were to identify a purpose of any game feature, I'd say the purpose is to provide enjoyment to the player, and for some players the mechanism by which they do that is through something other than combat effectiveness.

Second, how can we possibly identify a purpose for these features?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I know this was said jokingly, but to be honest, life balances itself out. A gold bar isn't worth squat in DA2. In real life, it would under normal circumstances, but not if the value of gold were to disappear overnight (and replaced, say, with a shortage where food was a premium).

More reactive game economies are something I dream about whenever people ask me what I want for Christmas.

I wonder how hard a free market would be to simulate.

[In Exile]

I don't agree with your assessment. For two reasons.

First, if I were to identify a purpose of any game feature, I'd say the purpose is to provide enjoyment to the player, and for some players the mechanism by which they do that is through something other than combat effectiveness.

Second, how can we possibly identify a purpose for these features?

 

My point is simply that all of the abilities, as designed, operate only in the metaphysical state of combat and exist only for effects in the metaphysical state of combat. A trap has no other purpose. Archery has no other purpose. 

While I agree that enjoyment is the overarching goal, the actual gameplay is basically reducible to combat, dialogue and exploration, with the talents (with very few exceptions, e.g. lockpick) having no role outside of combat. 

[Trikormadenadon]

I disagree

Origins crafting system was BAD, building decent runes was an outright headache requiring me to make a certain amount of lesser runes to get better ones ugh. Traps were mostly crap, the inventory would alway be full up on unused ingredients

DA2 did it better, find the resource or mineral deposit, get the recipe and create away with no overabundance of unused minerals and making getting the best runes felt much smoother

To be fair, the rune crafting was from Awakening not Origins so it has no bearing on whether the Origins system was bad or not.

[Deebo305]

To be fair, the rune crafting was from Awakening not Origins so it has no bearing on whether the Origins system was bad or not.

I really don't look at Origin or Awakening as seperate, its still basicially the same game with more options, it'd be akin to pretending XCOM: Enemy Unknown and Enemy Within aren't the same except one has mechs

 

As for Origins crafting, it was still not that great. More of a mess when compared to DA2s "ordering" as some have called it but like afew people here I did like Kingdom of Amalur's crafting system especially the blacksmithing. Hope Inquisition takes some cues from them

[Trikormadenadon]

I really don't look at Origin or Awakening as seperate, its still basicially the same game with more options, it'd be akin to pretending XCOM: Enemy Unknown and Enemy Within aren't the same except one has mechs

 

As for Origins crafting, it was still not that great. More of a mess when compared to DA2s "ordering" as some have called it but like afew people here I did like Kingdom of Amalur's crafting system especially the blacksmithing. Hope Inquisition takes some cues from them

The reason I distinguish the 2 is because I liked the Origins crafting better than the DA2 crafting but I absolutely despised the rune crafting.

 

But yes, it would be nice if they took after KoA:R

[Captain Bonecold]

What about xp for crafting system? Like let say you are novice potion maker. Or just someone who below novice. The game would allow you to rank up your crafting system. Also bring back stealth and pick pocketing. Trap making and armor crafting can be the same way.  Enemies drop the loot and you craft from that loot or find it in the wild. Or when you capture a base and use it supply or have garden for herbs or look deeply for ore for smiting.  Or maybe for smiting destroy old weapons and armors to craft new ones.

[Yrkoon]

I believe Exile means the effectiveness of traps were rather minimal when a party of mages and warriors could clear the field faster and more effectively

If he's pitting crafting against character talents, then it's an unfair comparison. A decent crafting system is supposed to supplement a character's abilities, not replace them.

That said, there are instances in Origins where combat encounters were made easier with the use of crafted consumables like Bombs and Traps. The Ser Cauthrian fight at the palace comes to mind. In that encounter, you could send your warriors to the front lines to take their beatings. Or you could pepper the battlefield ahead of time with traps, then have your melee guys toss grenades at the start of the fight thus getting an edge at the beginning

But again, Traps and Bombs aren't the scope of what crafting is in DA:O

[Captain Bonecold]

You want to know what I hate about DA2? Being force to buy the item from the supplier. Even though you had all the materials. It my dragon blood. Mine ingredients. And yet I have to pay what?

[Xerxes52]

You want to know what I hate about DA2? Being force to buy the item from the supplier. Even though you had all the materials. It my dragon blood. Mine ingredients. And yet I have to pay what?

My guess? Additional components and labor costs. Sure you got some Elfroot to make health potions, but the vendor has to supply the flask and distillation agent from their own stocks, and they don't work for free.


As for DA:I, I'd rather have customization instead of crafting for my items.

[In Exile]

If he's pitting crafting against character talents, then it's an unfair comparison. A decent crafting system is supposed to supplement a character's abilities, not replace them.

 

But traps and bombs, which are designed to do damage, are measured directly against abilities. A decent crafting system generally means crafting armour/weapons which obviously improve your abilities, or health/mana/buff potions. Those have clearly apparent supporting benefits. 

 

Traps and bombs, though? They're just things similar to talents that suck and cost money/parts. 

 

That said, there are instances in Origins where combat encounters were made easier with the use of crafted consumables like Bombs and Traps. The Ser Cauthrian fight at the palace comes to mind. In that encounter, you could send your warriors to the front lines to take their beatings. Or you could pepper the battlefield ahead of time with traps, then have your melee guys toss grenades at the start of the fight thus getting an edge at the beginning

But again, Traps and Bombs aren't the scope of what crafting is in DA:O

 

Or you could use your mages, have only a single warrior, and make it impossible for Cautherin to kill anyone because of the absurd rate that you heal and and the overwhelming about of damage you can inflict on her through a combination of spells. 

 

Bombs and traps are less effective that just pure spells, even if we're not using clearly broken abilities force forcefield + taunt combos. 

[In Exile]

You want to know what I hate about DA2? Being force to buy the item from the supplier. Even though you had all the materials. It my dragon blood. Mine ingredients. And yet I have to pay what?

 

My guess? Additional components and labor costs. Sure you got some Elfroot to make health potions, but the vendor has to supply the flask and distillation agent from their own stocks, and they don't work for free.


As for DA:I, I'd rather have customization instead of crafting for my items.

 

In DA2, it was the actual know-how. Hawke didn't know how to make potions or runes. 

[Fast Jimmy]

I wonder how hard a free market would be to simulate.

Well, hard is a tough question to answer.

In terms of technical limitations, not hard at all. Very detailed world simulations are possible through Excel, ranging from climate predictions to economic projections.

In terms of design? INCREDIBLY difficult. Each formula, of which there must be hundreds - if not thousands - must be painstakingly crafted and tested to an ungodly level to not only work in a logical manner, but also to deal with an insane level of quirks that could arise, or else the entire system opens itself up to manipulation to an unnatural level by a player. For each variable (read as: good sold, vendor inventory, location/region and trade routes) and it becomes a tangled web of problems.

The most difficult part is the complete lack of ability to easily apply real world formulas to these simulations. Since a video game doesn't have direct examples to "test" their formulas out on to discover if they make sense to the real world, meaning the only way to refine is through large scale testing and experimentation every step of the way.

Not to say it is impossible, but it would be a huge endeavor that would require that the economy be a large part to the game to warrant the amount of work involved, instead of an ancillary system.

[Yrkoon]

But traps and bombs, which are designed to do damage, are measured directly against abilities. A decent crafting system generally means crafting armour/weapons which obviously improve your abilities, or health/mana/buff potions. Those have clearly apparent supporting benefits. 
 
Traps and bombs, though? They're just things similar to talents that suck and cost money/parts. 
 
 
Or you could use your mages, have only a single warrior, and make it impossible for Cautherin to kill anyone because of the absurd rate that you heal and and the overwhelming about of damage you can inflict on her through a combination of spells. 
 
Bombs and traps are less effective that just pure spells, even if we're not using clearly broken abilities force forcefield + taunt combos.

Seems like the issue here then is Balance. If talents/Spells in DA:O were so powerful that they rendered crafting moot, then the solution would be to either:

1) Make spells/talents less powerful

or

2) Make crafted stuff more powerful

or

3) Make combat more difficult/tactical


The solution is NOT, however, to dumb-down crafting and turn it into some retarded catalogue mail-order thing that we got in DA2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

My point is simply that all of the abilities, as designed, operate only in the metaphysical state of combat and exist only for effects in the metaphysical state of combat. A trap has no other purpose. Archery has no other purpose.
While I agree that enjoyment is the overarching goal, the actual gameplay is basically reducible to combat, dialogue and exploration, with the talents (with very few exceptions, e.g. lockpick) having no role outside of combat.

I see no reason to draw a line between combat and exploration. Stealth is a great example of how the two overlap.

But again, what is the purpose of the combat? If the purpose of the combat is to be fun, and the combat effectiveness of the talents is not equivalent to fun, why are you talking about combat effectiveness?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bombs and traps are less effective that just pure spells, even if we're not using clearly broken abilities force forcefield + taunt combos.

I derive tremendous joy from doing things in a non-standard way. If I can sneak through the deep roads, lay some traps, sneak away, and use my bow to pull enemies through my killing field, that's awesome. I don't care that I could have done it faster and easier with mages. I didn't want to do it with mages just then.

These games aren't games. They are toys. We derive joy from them however we like, limited only by our creativity. Like with any toy.