114 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Seems like the issue here then is Balance. If talents/Spells in DA:O were so powerful that they rendered crafting moot, then the solution would be to either:

1) Make spells/talents less powerful

or

2) Make crafted stuff more powerful

or

3) Make combat more difficult/tactical


The solution is NOT, however, to dumb-down crafting and turn it into some retarded catalogue mail-order thing that we got in DA2.

 

I'm not saying DA2 crafting was good. I'm just saying DA:O crafting was equally disappointing, for somewhat different reasons. For DA:I to have good crafting, it has to jettison both systems and come up with a third option. 

 

 

I see no reason to draw a line between combat and exploration. Stealth is a great example of how the two overlap.

But again, what is the purpose of the combat? If the purpose of the combat is to be fun, and the combat effectiveness of the talents is not equivalent to fun, why are you talking about combat effectiveness?

 

It wasn't my intention to imply that the combat effectiveness of talents isn't the determinant of fun combat; just that there is more to a fun game than fun combat.

 

That being said, I would say that the game draws a line between combat and exploration by, among other things, creating a distinct state for combat and making almost every talent useful only in combat. 

 

I'd also quibble about something like stealth being useful for exploration, even though it is usable in exploration. 

[In Exile]

I derive tremendous joy from doing things in a non-standard way. If I can sneak through the deep roads, lay some traps, sneak away, and use my bow to pull enemies through my killing field, that's awesome. I don't care that I could have done it faster and easier with mages. I didn't want to do it with mages just then.

These games aren't games. They are toys. We derive joy from them however we like, limited only by our creativity. Like with any toy.

 

I don't disagree with you that options are valuable - I just disagree that DA:O was good at offering those options. For lack of a better way of putting it, I think that DA:O took a concept that could be fun: sneak, trap, ambush, and made it horridly un-fun by making the traps very weak, the sneak generally useless, and the ambush far less effective than literally launching oneself alone into the combat. 

 

Aside from hurting the verisimilitude of the setting, DA:O's approach breaks the payoff-matrix for a slower or more deliberate non-standard approach: that the patience and time invested in setting up the board results in a far more efficient and optimal result that more mindlessly rushing in. In DA:O, the reverse happened: investing more time and thought using such non-standard abilities just resulted in a harder and less optimal result. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't disagree with you that options are valuable - I just disagree that DA:O was good at offering those options. For lack of a better way of putting it, I think that DA:O took a concept that could be fun: sneak, trap, ambush, and made it horridly un-fun by making the traps very weak, the sneak generally useless, and the ambush far less effective than literally launching oneself alone into the combat. 

 

Aside from hurting the verisimilitude of the setting, DA:O's approach breaks the payoff-matrix for a slower or more deliberate non-standard approach: that the patience and time invested in setting up the board results in a far more efficient and optimal result that more mindlessly rushing in. In DA:O, the reverse happened: investing more time and thought using such non-standard abilities just resulted in a harder and less optimal result. 

I don't disagree.  But I would still rather have those options than not.

[SirGladiator]

I always thought that Crafting was one of the few areas in which DA2 surpassed DAO, I really enjoyed collecting the various items, I actually enjoyed that more than the items you could make with them .  To me that's the main room for improvement area, giving us the ability to make more types of really cool items.  That's what I hope they do in DAI, we know they're going to continue to make the gathering of the items fun, I just hope that the things we're able to make with those items will be really extra awesome this time. 

[Yrkoon]

I always thought that Crafting was one of the few areas in which DA2 surpassed DAO, I really enjoyed collecting the various items, I actually enjoyed that more than the items you could make with them .  To me that's the main room for improvement area, giving us the ability to make more types of really cool items.  That's what I hope they do in DAI, we know they're going to continue to make the gathering of the items fun, I just hope that the things we're able to make with those items will be really extra awesome this time.

We must have played different versions of DA2. There are no crafting items to collect in DA2. There are merely deposits to locate and click on. Then you simply go back home and place your order.

And with the Black Emporium, you don't even have to locate and click! You can simply purchase those deposits from a generic list. <gag>

That's. Not. Crafting.

That's not crafting any more than finding the number to Dominos then ordering a pizza constitutes "cooking".

[Realmzmaster]

We must have played different versions of DA2. There are no crafting items to collect in DA2. There are merely deposits to locate and click on. Then you simply go back home and place your order.

And with the Black Emporium, you don't even have to locate and click! You can simply purchase those deposits from a generic list. <gag>

That's. Not. Crafting.

That's not crafting any more than finding the number to Dominos then ordering a pizza constitutes "cooking".

 

DAO's system was not really better. Once the gamer knows where all the unlimited supplies are it is simply a matter of fast travel and purchasing the needed ingredient. DA2 simply took out the need to go to the shop to purchase the ingredient or flasks.

 

If DAO had limited ingredients to only that which could be harvested out in the field and not bought it may have been more significant.

[Yrkoon]

DA:O's system was Crafting. Whether it was good or not is a different question.

 

DA2 simply took out the need to go to the shop to purchase the ingredient or flasks.

LOL yeah, it replaced the need to buy crafting components with.... the need to BUY THE FINISHED PRODUCT.


DA2 also removed the Crafting SKILL. It Removed the ability to make Traps. It removed the ability to craft stuff while you're actually adventuring. In short, DA2 removed crafting and replaced it with Amazon.com.

[In Exile]

I don't disagree.  But I would still rather have those options than not.

 

Oh, I'm with you on that point. Just because I wouldn't use an option doesn't mean it shouldn't be in, and I wasn't advocating for them to be taken out; I would just like them to be well-done so I can enjoy them too. 

[In Exile]

DA:O's system was Crafting. Whether it was good or not is a different question.

 
LOL yeah, it replaced the need to buy crafting components with.... the need to BUY THE FINISHED PRODUCT.


DA2 also removed the Crafting SKILL. It Removed the ability to make Traps. It removed the ability to craft stuff while you're actually adventuring. In short, DA2 removed crafting and replaced it with Amazon.com.

 

Not all games that have robust crafting systems allow you to craft while travelling. GW2 has a robust crafting system without letting you craft while travelling. 

[Dagr88]

Template

 

So level of ore/leather - level of weapon/armor

Gems and other things - +stats and bonuses

 

As I see this system. IF so, hopefully we will be able to remove bonuses (gems or something) from the equipment... for recycling purposes. (Money scrub)

[Realmzmaster]

DA:O's system was Crafting. Whether it was good or not is a different question.

 
LOL yeah, it replaced the need to buy crafting components with.... the need to BUY THE FINISHED PRODUCT.


DA2 also removed the Crafting SKILL. It Removed the ability to make Traps. It removed the ability to craft stuff while you're actually adventuring. In short, DA2 removed crafting and replaced it with Amazon.com.

 

Kingdoms of Amalur (which also allows for experimentation with potions), Fallout or Fallout NV systems are crafting. DAO is simply mall shopping (which required that flasks be bought because they could never be found. Without a flask potions and poisons were impossible (even if you had all the other ingredients) to make so a trip to the store was necessary) instead of DA2's online shopping (as some like to call it).

 

If crafting is going to be in the game give (IMHO) either as much control as possible or remove the tedium. DA2 simply removed the tedium.

As far as traps for me in DAO were basically ineffective when I used them so in DA2 never missed them, but YMMV.

[Allan Schumacher]

I got a chance to see the mapping of it today.

 

I think it's more interesting than both of the last two games for sure (I wasn't a fan of crafting in either).

[Deflagratio]

Template

 

So level of ore/leather - level of weapon/armor

Gems and other things - +stats and bonuses

 

As I see this system. IF so, hopefully we will be able to remove bonuses (gems or something) from the equipment... for recycling purposes. (Money scrub)

 

 

How I interpreted the system was

 

Template = Base Shape/Primary defining Characteristic. IE: Straight Longsword - Curved Longsword. Heavy Plate - Scaled Mail.

Material = Quality of the item, possibly influences what it looks like. IE: Verdian ore would be green, silverite would be mirror-shined Silver.

Additions = Aesthetic and fine-tuning pieces. IE: Pommels, Guards and Grips for Weapons. Underlay, tassets, Belt for armor. Granting more unique attribute combinations.

 

**Examples are not confirmed, but mere illustrative.

 

Just from the sound of it, and some of the UI in the leaked stuff, it does look like you can cannibalize stuff to recycle. Obviously, take this information with as much salt as needed, as even what can be verified is still pre-release stuff.

 

 

I got a chance to see the mapping of it today.

 

I think it's more interesting than both of the last two games for sure (I wasn't a fan of crafting in either).

 

 

Anything north of Kingdom's of Amalur is good in my book, I'd definitely be a little disappointed in anything less though. And anything as flat as Skyrim's (Alchemy notwithstanding) would just make me scratch my head and say "Why bother?"

 

Amalur had one of the better, albeit overpowered crafting systems in the RPG realm. Not so obtuse that it required an encyclopedia to jump in, but not Skyrim flat where the limited possible output options crippled any sense of actually making your own stuff. (More like stamping out replicas at a factory)

[Yrkoon]

DAO is simply mall shopping (which required that flasks be bought because they could never be found. Without a flask potions and poisons were impossible (even if you had all the other ingredients) to make so a trip to the store was necessary) instead of DA2's online shopping (as some like to call it).

For the 3rd time, now. Potions and poisons are not the scope of DA:O's crafting.

[Realmzmaster]

For the 3rd time, now. Potions and poisons are not the scope of DA:O's crafting.

They are an important part of that crafting and the ones most likely to be crafted by everyone especially potions.. Rune Crafting in Awakenings which is an extension of Origins is tedium to the maximum..

[Realmzmaster]

I got a chance to see the mapping of it today.

 

I think it's more interesting than both of the last two games for sure (I wasn't a fan of crafting in either).

 

More interesting that is good to hear. If it is in line with KOA's crafting system I will be happy.

[Yrkoon]

They are an important part of that crafting and the ones most likely to be crafted by everyone especially potions.. Rune Crafting in Awakenings which is an extension of Origins is tedium to the maximum..

Well then, if you're determined to overly focus on potion and poison making, then...fine. Have it your way. Excuse me as I call you out on a claim you made in your last post.
 

DAO is simply mall shopping (which required that flasks be bought because they could never be found.

False. Flasks are both random and set loot drops in:

1) The circle tower
2) At least 2 of the deep roads maps
3) Redcliffe
4) The Bracialian forest.
5) The Gnawed Noble Tavern in Denerim.
6) Castle Drakon in Denerim

That being the case.... it's kinda hard (impossible in fact) to accurately describe DA:O's crafting as "mall shopping". Unless your idea of "mall shopping" is to kill other shoppers and steal their belongings.

[Realmzmaster]

Well then, if you're determined to overly focus on potion and poison making, then...fine. Have it your way. Excuse me as I call you out on a claim you made in your last post.
 
False. Flasks are both random and set loot drops in:

1) The circle tower
2) At least 2 of the deep roads maps
3) Redcliffe
4) The Bracialian forest.
5) The Gnawed Noble Tavern in Denerim.
6) Castle Drakon in Denerim

That being the case.... it's kinda hard (impossible in fact) to accurately describe DA:O's crafting as "mall shopping". Unless your idea of "mall shopping" is to kill other shoppers and steal their belongings.

 

The amount of flasks dropped is negligible at best compared to what most gamers will use in the course of the game, but I am sure you know that. Most gamers will by in large be mall shopping for flasks and other ingredients or fast traveling to where those ingredients are most abundant which means the vendor that holds the unlimited supply. That includes any of the other crafting ingredients.

 

If it is not mall shopping then let any one get through the game on normal or above using only the ingredients that can be found and not bought. That is entirely possible in KOA.

[Trikormadenadon]

The amount of flasks dropped is negligible at best compared to what most gamers will use in the course of the game, but I am sure you know that. Most gamers will by in large be mall shopping for flasks and other ingredients or fast traveling to where those ingredients are most abundant which means the vendor that holds the unlimited supply. That includes any of the other crafting ingredients.

 

If it is not mall shopping then let any one get through the game on normal or above using only the ingredients that can be found and not bought. That is entirely possible in KOA.

It is entirely possible in DA:O also. I don't make many potions in my normal playthroughs at all. I collect enough random stuff during the game to make all the potions I need. I survive on those and the ones I find (which actually are quite plentiful).

[Realmzmaster]

It is entirely possible in DA:O also. I don't make many potions in my normal playthroughs at all. I collect enough random stuff during the game to make all the potions I need. I survive on those and the ones I find (which actually are quite plentiful).

 

You sir are an exceptional gamer as are others on this board. The average player of DAO or DA2 will not survive that way. The average gamer in KOA can. 

 

I find it interesting that some posters are upset with my reference to DAO's crafting as mall shopping but have no problem criticizing DA2 for it so-called online shopping or ordering system. One poster stated (and there are others) that he/she liked the crafting system in DA2 and it got called online shopping. I point out that DAO is mall shopping compared to many other crafting systems I have used (using KOA as an example) and there is upset.

[Trikormadenadon]

I find it interesting that some posters are upset with my reference to DAO's crafting as mall shopping but have no problem criticizing DA2 for it so-called online shopping or ordering system. One poster stated (and there are others) that he/she liked the crafting system in DA2 and it got called online shopping. I point out that DAO is mall shopping compared to many other crafting systems I have used (using KOA as an example) and there is upset.

No. It basically is mall shopping vs. online shopping with a few found items intermixed with the mall shopping. i think the distinction or issue people have with it that it is not JUST mall shopping. You have to buy the stuff but then you actually have to click it to make it. And you can hold the stuff to use at any point in the game whereas in DA2 you have to go to the vendor or your home to get it. To me, that makes it feel more like I am making it rather than ordering it because I can do so at any time I choose.

[Trikormadenadon]

The problem is complexity was thrown out the window the moment crafting became worthless due to the over abundance of buying every single bloody elfroot in Thedas.

 

What's the point when you can break the balance that easily?

The only point I can see is the feel of it. To me, because you can make the stuff at any point in the game rather than having to go home or to the vendor it felt more like I was making the stuff rather than ordering it.

[Yrkoon]

The amount of flasks dropped is negligible at best compared to what most gamers will use in the course of the game,

Oh, you mean the game won't let you grind potion making for free?

Yep. So?

If it is not mall shopping then let any one get through the game on normal or above using only the ingredients that can be found and not bought.

Since anyone can get through the game on any difficulty without crafting a single item, this comment from you doesn't mean a thing. The POINT is that in DA:O, the ability to craft an item is completely in your hands, while in DA2 it isn't

[Elhanan]

Agree with Yrkoon on this one, as it has also been discussed somewhat on the Skyrim thread. I do not utilize Alchemy at all, and it is not needed to play and enjoy the game. For me.

 

OTOH, Yrkoon was one of the first to post poison recipes and tips. And both of us enjoy the same game.

 

For many, crafting and other misc skills help add depth to the characters. While I may leave such tasks to Followers like in SWTOR, others may enjoy making their own gear; not for me to say what is best for them simply because I do not enjoy it myself.

 

Is that about right?