130 réponses à ce sujet

[Schmonozov]

Lol, even though I'm technically on your side (liking complex gameplay and high difficulty), you're also highly mistaken if you think you are part of the majority as far as what general tastes are.

 

Casual gamers (the ones that want "interactive movies" as you put it, which for what it's worth, is fine by me in some genres) are a much bigger population than hardcore ones.

You are mistaken if you think the majority of gamers want an interactive movie, wich is what I was refering to. How much of a challenge the game will provide will most likely depend on a difficulty slider. There will probably be a 'narrative' or 'casual' difficulty for people who just play the game for story, or people who are generally not very good at tactical RPGs. Altough I personally believe people who choose to play like that are doing themselves a massive disservice, but it's not really my place to judge, I'm all for giving people different options.

 

I also think people all too often mistake casuals with 'bad' or 'simple-minded', when that is more often than not true, most people will probably play on the standard difficulty.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lots of people seemed to dislike the longer dungeons in Origins.

Because they were repetitive, not because they were long.

For a repetitive combat-centric dungeon, DAO's Circle Tower is about as long as you should go. I'm talking about just the tower, not counting the Fade.

But longer dungeons can work well if there's a greater variety of activities. I've said before that I think DAO's Deep Roads were too short, but I wouldn't want to add any combat to them. Spread out that same combat (or less) over a dungeon three times that long. That would create the sense of scale and loneliness the OP wants, while avoiding the drudgery some people fear from long dungeons.

[bussinrounds]

 hardcore tacticians

Yea, they're all gonna be lining up to buy a copy of Dragon Age.

 

 

Complex dungeons, systems, tactical gameplay..  do ppl really still think they can get these things out of a mainstream RPG designed for the masses in this day and age  ? 

 

Just be happy with your damn romanceable elf butt sex.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Complex dungeons, systems, tactical gameplay.. do ppl really still think they can get these things out of a mainstream RPG designed for the masses in this day and age ?

I am very eager to play Wasteland 2...

[Yunaleska]

Dragon age is not about dungeon crawling. I hate that type of game.

[bEVEsthda]

Because they were repetitive, not because they were long.

For a repetitive combat-centric dungeon, DAO's Circle Tower is about as long as you should go. I'm talking about just the tower, not counting the Fade.

But longer dungeons can work well if there's a greater variety of activities. I've said before that I think DAO's Deep Roads were too short, but I wouldn't want to add any combat to them. Spread out that same combat (or less) over a dungeon three times that long. That would create the sense of scale and loneliness the OP wants, while avoiding the drudgery some people fear from long dungeons.

 

Well, I do sort of like the general notion of what you suggest, but I'm not convinced about the conclusions.

 

First of all, the people who disliked the long dungeons in DA:O generally belonged to a group of people who generally represented a collection of opinons which were rather contrary to, for instance, my set of opinions. So I suspect it might be a much greater factor, and difference, in personality, behind these preferrences. Meaning, - it's not that easily resolved.

 

Then, a lot that attracts me (and the OP, it seems) is the dread. The dread of endless difficulties, claustrofobia, "will I ever get out?".

And the amount of "drudgery" is important in building that mood. Now I'm not sure "drudgery" is the right word. I assume it's a word chosen only for its derogatory qualities. I say so, because the critics of the long dungeons otherwise come across as people who mainly play video games for the sake of repetetive combat. They seem to have no problems with it above ground. No, I'd say that the 'quality' here, is in feeling 'uncomfortable', and in having an 'uncomfortable' set of tasks, a mountain, ahead of you, - whether those be described as boring, tedious, repetetive or difficult, demanding - before seeing any kind of conclusion of the 'uncomfortable' situation.

I revel in having that kind of experiences inside a cRPG. I loved the Fade and Deep Roads in DA:O for giving it. And I have no problems with it in replays either. It's still as "fun".

 

So I'd guess it's more if we enjoy the experience of being 'uncomfortable' in the game or not. And that is probably a just as powerful divider as some other japanese/western, DA2/DA:O -differences.

[fchopin]

If the dungeons are optional i don’t see why they cannot be made hard and have special items in them.
If people don’t like them then don’t do them.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well, I do sort of like the general notion of what you suggest, but I'm not convinced about the conclusions.

First of all, the people who disliked the long dungeons in DA:O generally belonged to a group of people who generally represented a collection of opinons which were rather contrary to, for instance, my set of opinions. So I suspect it might be a much greater factor, and difference, in personality, behind these preferrences. Meaning, - it's not that easily resolved.

Then, a lot that attracts me (and the OP, it seems) is the dread. The dread of endless difficulties, claustrofobia, "will I ever get out?".
And the amount of "drudgery" is important in building that mood. Now I'm not sure "drudgery" is the right word. I assume it's a word chosen only for its derogatory qualities. I say so, because the critics of the long dungeons otherwise come across as people who mainly play video games for the sake of repetetive combat. They seem to have no problems with it above ground. No, I'd say that the 'quality' here, is in feeling 'uncomfortable', and in having an 'uncomfortable' set of tasks, a mountain, ahead of you, - whether those be described as boring, tedious, repetetive or difficult, demanding - before seeing any kind of conclusion of the 'uncomfortable' situation.
I revel in having that kind of experiences inside a cRPG. I loved the Fade and Deep Roads in DA:O for giving it. And I have no problems with it in replays either. It's still as "fun".

So I'd guess it's more if we enjoy the experience of being 'uncomfortable' in the game or not. And that is probably a just as powerful divider as some other japanese/western, DA2/DA:O -differences.

I think that dread is better created with longer dungeons, yes, but it is undermined by boring dungeons. And dungeons wherein I do the same thing again and again are boring.

[Fast Jimmy]

I think that dread is better created with longer dungeons, yes, but it is undermined by boring dungeons. And dungeons wherein I do the same thing again and again are boring.

As well as the fact that you cut a clear path to escape/safety/etc. in most games. So a huge dungeon is just one, long safety corridor where escaping is just a matter of following the parts of the map you've already explored. Say what you will about random encounters, they always have the suspense you could get into a fight at any given moment, so walking towards the exit when your party gets injured and you were out of potions was more of a mad dash for safety rather than a boring trudge through a huge map.

[naddaya]

And make them optional if you do. During the first playthrough, they're fine. After that it's a chore. Deep Roads and Fade, anyone?

[Shapeshifter777]

How do you make a dungeon some supper?  Even more intriguing, how do you do it hard?

[Sylvius the Mad]

As well as the fact that you cut a clear path to escape/safety/etc. in most games. So a huge dungeon is just one, long safety corridor where escaping is just a matter of following the parts of the map you've already explored. Say what you will about random encounters, they always have the suspense you could get into a fight at any given moment, so walking towards the exit when your party gets injured and you were out of potions was more of a mad dash for safety rather than a boring trudge through a huge map.

Ultima IX did this really well. That game had a lot of issues, but it had amazing dungeons.

[Fast Jimmy]

Ultima IX did this really well. That game had a lot of issues, but it had amazing dungeons.

I purged most of U9 out of my memory, actually. I can't honestly say I remember how its dungeons were set up.

[Fast Jimmy]

And make them optional if you do. During the first playthrough, they're fine. After that it's a chore. Deep Roads and Fade, anyone?

I loved the Deep a Roads and the Fade, even on subsequent playthroughs. What you may have considered trudging, I considered effective story telling by making me feel I was lost in a maze of my own mind, or traveling deep into the bowels of the earth.

DA2, by contrast, with its insta-teleportation around the Deep Roads, made it seem like just another cave.

[Nefla]

This sounds a lot more like Dark Souls. If you want those, then by all means, grab Dark Souls. BioWare has their own niche and direction.

Dark Souls plus a BioWare story and characters....that would be an awesome game! (unless they did it the other way around with BW combat and exploration and Dark Souls characters and story  )

[DaySeeker]

Are we using dungeon to mean a dark underground place, because those are the worst.  What dungeons lack is discovery and variability.  I think DA2 gave us dark roads with color and light.  Give us a sense of wonder when we explore and not just rock and torches.  This is why I didn't like the dark roads and the Fade in DAO- it was monotonous.  The color scheme was bland and did not change.  If I am going to spend a bunch of time there I don't want to be bored, give us waterfalls, statues, artfully arranged corpses, gemmed walls, strange puzzles, paintings on the walls, lighting changes, willife and monsters doing their regular things (not fighting us) for us to observe, give us tombs.  

 

The whole game world is a dungeon really. I never understood folks fascination with caves and rocks.

[Kinthalis ThornBlade]

Dungeons in this context I think are any secluded area with it's own distinct environment and consisting of a mix of traps, puzzles, enemies, lore, loot, and hopefully some interesting/impressive environments. Could be anything really, a system of caves, a long forgotten tomb, a decrepit castle, the ruins of an old temple or town or even a city! Maybe it's there to guard the final resting place of an ancient wizard, to lock away a dangerous spirit, to test adventurers as to their worthiness of receiving the secrets of a long dead peoples, or simple the forgotten temple of an old god.

 

Variation is the key to these. They should all feel natural, lived in, with a sense of history to them. They should also be unique. One might be a series of puzzles to solve with nary an enemy in sight (but with a lot of spooky atmosphere), others might be filled with tough enemies and traps.

 

I think that was one of the issues with Oblivion's and to an extent Skyrim's dungeons (though they were markedly better, IMHO) - was that they were all very samey.

 

To me, in RPG's like these, dungeons and similar exploration driven places are all about experiencing the parts of the world we don't see and interact with directly. It's about learning the lore and history of the gameworld. 

 

In the cities and castles and fields and forests we explore what is happening now. Politics, factions good and evil, the people and the world as it stands now, a world and people we can directly interact with. But that world seldom feels truly alive and "lived in" without catching the occasional glimpse into it's past. And it's usually in these nooks and crannies that that past get's a voice.

 

It makes you feel like this world has existed for a long time, and wasn't just created 5 minutes before the first load screen.

[Pasquale1234]

Lol, even though I'm technically on your side (liking complex gameplay and high difficulty), you're also highly mistaken if you think you are part of the majority as far as what general tastes are.
 
Casual gamers (the ones that want "interactive movies" as you put it, which for what it's worth, is fine by me in some genres) are a much bigger population than hardcore ones.

Apparently so, judging by the number of people who really seem to prefer the addition of so many cutscenes and the voiced PC.

I loved the Deep a Roads and the Fade, even on subsequent playthroughs. What you may have considered trudging, I considered effective story telling by making me feel I was lost in a maze of my own mind, or traveling deep into the bowels of the earth.

DA2, by contrast, with its insta-teleportation around the Deep Roads, made it seem like just another cave.

Agreed. You supposedly went farther into the deep roads than anyone has ever delved before in DA2, but it certainly didn't feel like it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I loved the Deep a Roads and the Fade, even on subsequent playthroughs. What you may have considered trudging, I considered effective story telling by making me feel I was lost in a maze of my own mind, or traveling deep into the bowels of the earth.

DA2, by contrast, with its insta-teleportation around the Deep Roads, made it seem like just another cave.

I completely agree. The Fade and the Deep Roads are among the best parts of DAO.

[Giggles_Manically]

Only if said Dungeon was fun and interesting to look at while doing it.

 

Like Blackreach was, being huge but filled with nooks and crannies, and tons of little rooms.

However stuff like the Deep Roads was not so good cause it all looked the same through the entire dungeon.

 

If you are going for a big dungeon, give it some freedom to explore and good scenery.

[Nyeredzi]

OK

 

After completing a big, long, hard, scary dungeon

 

didn't you get that great feeling of refreshment?

[Deflagratio]

I am very eager to play Wasteland 2...

 

 

Who isn't?

 

 

OK

 

After completing a big, long, hard, scary dungeon

 

didn't you get that great feeling of refreshment?

 

Only if the game is built around that kind of Dungeon Crawling. I have mixed feelings about the Deep Roads and the Tower-Fade. I love the combat encounters, but for the most part, they exist for their own sake, with no external motivation, and External motivation is paramount when dealing with huge dungeons. The Inquisition Meta-game (Striving for the perfect/best army) as well as crafting will almost certainly provide that kind of incentive within Inquisition. Who knows? Maybe the Deep Roads will make a return, and be ridiculously huge?

[Russian Berserker]

no dungeons...too lazy for that bs

[Lady Nuggins]

Honestly, my biggest objection to long dungeons is inventory.  Who can make it all the way through the Deep Roads without maxing out their inventory well before the end?  Filling my inventory in a place where I'm trapped is frustrating and distracting, because all I can think is "okay when can I get out of here so I can sell this loot off?"  Then you're constantly stopping to sort through your junk to decide what you can drop/destroy to free up space for the good loot ahead.  I know inventory management is just a part of RPG gameplay, but it really takes away from the drama of the experience in longer dungeons.

[Russian Berserker]

Honestly, my biggest objection to long dungeons is inventory.  Who can make it all the way through the Deep Roads without maxing out their inventory well before the end?  Filling my inventory in a place where I'm trapped is frustrating and distracting, because all I can think is "okay when can I get out of here so I can sell this loot off?"  Then you're constantly stopping to sort through your junk to decide what you can drop/destroy to free up space for the good loot ahead.  I know inventory management is just a part of RPG gameplay, but it really takes away from the drama of the experience in longer dungeons.

http://forum.bioware...noying-as-hell/