252 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

No, that knight says that Eamon fell ill before the king died. Illness is not solely the result of poison, and beyond that if you look at the logistics there's no way in hell Loghain could've poisoned Eamon before Ostagar.

 

He was at Ostagar the entire time and was responsible for the victories they'd had thus far. Talk to Duncan in the Magi origin and the HN origin and you find there have been some battles thus far. When you get to Ostagar, you discover that the battles thus far have been won thanks to Loghain. So how is it that Jowan could have been captured by Templars, escorted to Denerim by Loghain's men, and met with Loghain in Denerim when Loghain was at Ostagar the entire time... and when we arrive Loghain has somehow still been there the whole time?

 

It's more likely in my mind that after Ostagar Loghain met with Jowan and told him to poison Eamon because Eamon would rile the nobility to fight a civil war against Loghain and attempt to put Alistair on the throne (which he does just that) and would also be too clouded by his familial relation to Cailan to see things clearly.

 

I'm not saying Loghain didn't order Jowan to poison Eamon. Only that the logistics for the "before Ostagar" argument don't work out.

 

There's also a good chance that we are not counting on the Warden's and Alistair's recovery time. They were both turned into pin-cushions, and Morrigan says that even with Flemeth's healing it was a close call. We are likely looking at a few weeks before they were up and about, what would've been months without magic, if at all. 

 

Also, you forgot to mention the message from Eamon Duncan delivered to Cailan when we first arrive. 

 

"You uncle sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliff's forces can be here within a week."

 

"Ha! Eamon just wants in on the glory! We won three battles against the darkspawn and tomorrow should be no different."

 

Eamon may have fallen ill before Cailan's death, but he was still fit enough to fight, or at least bring troops to Ostagar. 

[Elhanan]

The written accounts should have some from Loghain supporters included, but seemingly do not. The eyewitness accounts for the decade following Ostegar also oppose Loghain. And the second hand testimony of betrayal was tried to be quieted via torture and imprisonment under the rule of Loghain and Howe.

Alistair was only a Warden of six months before the events at Ostegar; hardly time to see any hard decisions being made concerning 'Do what we must' choices; certainly none concerning the coming Blight. And my score or more of Warden's never saved the Anvil; cannot ever recall losing Conner either, as returning to the Circle for aid is viable. While past Warden's may have achieved goals by any means (eg; Warden's Keep), they were also punished for such deeds; thus the banishment.

Duncan mentioned that Eamon could be ready at Ostegar within a week; easily enough time for the poison plot to have been put into motion. And since Howe was running the day to day, probably would have timed it to coincide with the events at the Cousland estates.

Have seen nothing to justify Loghain's actions; only better understand the motives of the man that made them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The written accounts should have some from Loghain supporters included, but seemingly do not. The eyewitness accounts for the decade following Ostegar also oppose Loghain. And the second hand testimony of betrayal was tried to be quieted via torture and imprisonment under the rule of Loghain and Howe.

The written accounts that the player encounters do not include those of Loghain supporters. Which isn't that big a sample since you're not playing a researcher or historian. And you're yet again ignoring my arguments that we see eyewitnesses with a different POV, including one who Loghain's allies were hunting and have in fact just killed and who therefore has no reason at all to stick up for him. Not to mention the problem that an unpopular POV would have trouble even managing to see print. There is no First Amendment in Ferelden (much less in Kirkwall), and there is no internet. What media there is seems to be largely controlled by the Chantry, which Loghain has managed to offend by using Jowan and by siding with the apostate-using Howe.

[Elhanan]

I did address this; the eyewitness accounts for Loghain are those made immediately after Ostegar, but not a decade later. And I admit not being an expert at the lore, but the witnessed accounts made in the full context of time oppose Loghain.

This thread was made about his love of Mabari. While I like that the story humanizes Loghain, it by no means makes me sympathetic to his treachery.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I did address this; the eyewitness accounts for Loghain are those made immediately after Ostegar, but not a decade later. And I admit not being an expert at the lore, but the witnessed accounts made in the full context of time oppose Loghain.

This thread was made about his love of Mabari. While I like that the story humanizes Loghain, it by no means makes me sympathetic to his treachery.

I'll give you the second paragraph, but the fact that we don't meet eyewitnesses who support Loghain a decade after the fact doesn't mean much. (Especially in the context of that group having found themselves on the losing side of history in a society where such people are encouraged to keep their mouths shut about it. I could also point out the fact that memories change in retrospect, if I thought Bioware was willing to go into that much detail as far as accurate human psychology. Though on the other hand corrupted memories might explain some things as far as Alistair's flip-flopping that I mentioned earlier.) I'm also not sure what you mean by "witnessed accounts made in the full context of the time."

[Elhanan]

Carter, Aveline, her first husband, Wynne, the prisoner on the rack, etc span a decade of repeated information. But for me, there is also the Warden's first hand account, and mine certainly does not see Loghain in any sort of sympathetic role. While some do, I only see a man that killed his King and made my tasks a lot harder due to his interference.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You know, the fact that they keep repeating it doesn't mean much as far as truth and falsehood go. As for what the Warden believes, that doesn't necessarily mean much either. The Warden is not supposed to be omniscient. That said, we see enough from the Warden's point of view (Loghain trying to keep Cailan off the front-lines, Alistair admitting the beacon is late shortly before the Warden wakes up, the huge horde streaming from the Korcari Wilds) that the Warden would be justified in disagreeing with key points of your opinion.

[Elhanan]

The idea that Hawke does not meet any from Ferelden that supported Loghain seems to indicate the historical perspective concerning the events.

As for Loghain's attempt to 'save Cailan'; it was a glorious moment for us all. And Alistair mentions that the King was doing fairly well at the time the beacon was lit, late or not; hence his puzzlement as to Loghain's abandonment.

No; no problems here.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The idea that Hawke does not meet any from Ferelden that supported Loghain seems to indicate the historical perspective concerning the events.

As for Loghain's attempt to 'save Cailan'; it was a glorious moment for us all. And Alistair mentions that the King was doing fairly well at the time the beacon was lit, late or not; hence his puzzlement as to Loghain's abandonment.

No; no problems here.

I'm not disputing that that's what history has concluded. As for Alistair mentioning that the darkspawn were nearly defeated (these being his exact words to the best of my memory) it doesn't line up with what we see of the battlefield at the time of Cailan's death. The darkspawn are still coming in in droves when Cailan dies. That's not only not "nearly defeated", but it's a problem for the strategy that Loghain was hoping (or claiming, if we take your interpretation) would win the battle: flanking is still an advantage if there's enemy troops behind you to counter-flank, but much less of one.

[Althix]

I wonder how Alistair knew that the Darkspawn were nearly defeated, when he and warden were busy dying after the ambush in the Tower.

[TEWR]

To say nothing of how the windows are obscenely high up and you can't see out them. Plus he doesn't even bother to check the field to see if the Darkspawn were committed. He just says "We're surely late. Light the beacon!" (which yeah, they probably were late given that Duncan said they only had an hour to get to the top of the tower, but even had they been on time without the Darkspawn being committed it's irrelevant).

[Pateu]

I haven't done that myself, but I think what the point is that though he was the king, Cailan's body shouldn't be given a special funeral when there were hundreds of soldiers who are going to be left to the wolves and forgotten. Cailan wanted to play at war and I think Loghain wants his body to receive the treatment every other soldier will get.

 

But that's simply my take on it.

 

Loghain is just incredibly mad Cailan was planning on ditching his daughter for Celeste.

[Elhanan]

And yet, Alistair does say nearly defeated, and a trained Templar might know this. Loghain may have been able to rescue the King and Wardens, but chose to leave himself. Ser Cauthrian objects, but remains loyal to her commander; repeated later with obsessive enthusiasm later in Denerim.

As for the view, it was good enough for Alistair and possibly the Warden.

[Mike3207]

Alistair was a bit overemotional at that time, due to Duncan's death.He may simply have convinced himself the battle was winnable when it was not, for no other reason than he owed it to Duncan's memory.

I think he and the warden were able to see something out of the window, but not likely the details. From his vantage, It may have looked like Cailan could have won, when that was not actually the case at all.

[congokong]

Wow, so many Loghain defense lawyers here. Such imaginations they have.

 

"Maybe Eamon fell ill before Ostagar, but that doesn't mean it was from poison."

 

Uh huh, tummy ache then?

 

"Duncan brought a letter from Eamon before Ostagar; therefore Eamon must not have been poisoned yet."

 

Maybe he was already ill but still capable of sending aid, or maybe his illness happened shortly after.

 

So when DA fails to manage time well (which has happened many times) Loghain defenders will pretend certain conversations just never happened to make the timeline fit better and to more importantly support their argument. It's stupid to believe the Lothering knight's specific mention of Eamon falling ill before Ostagar didn't happen or wasn't from poisoning. It's equally stupid to ignore Jowan and Isolde's account of having no reason to distrust Loghain when Jowan was sent to Redcliffe castle; obviously before Ostagar since they had every reason to distrust him afterwards. Hence, Loghain did indeed poison Eamon before Ostagar.

[dragonflight288]

Loghain is just incredibly mad Cailan was planning on ditching his daughter for Celeste.

 

He learns of it in Return to Ostagar, it was an original plot point that was dropped, as per Gaider. Loghain doesn't know that Cailan was planning on dropping Anora. 

[congokong]

He learns of it in Return to Ostagar, it was an original plot point that was dropped, as per Gaider. Loghain doesn't know that Cailan was planning on dropping Anora. 

He was? I thought it was just Eamon urging him to do so with no actual indication that Cailan would.

[Lavaeolus]

You see letters from Empress Celene to Cailan. An initially crumpled (assumedly by Cailan) letter discusses the idea of a "permanent alliance" between Orlais and Ferelden. It has been carefully smoothed and uncrumpled.

 

It's not directly stated outright, but it's pretty clear -- from Loghain and Wynne's banter, Alistair and Wynne's, and the subtext -- that Cailan was going to try and marry the Empress. Which of course means dropping Anora, unless Orlais and Ferelden's marriage laws are more open than we know.

[TEWR]

Wow, so many Loghain defense lawyers here. Such imaginations they have.

 

"Maybe Eamon fell ill before Ostagar, but that doesn't mean it was from poison."

 

Uh huh, tummy ache then?

 

"Duncan brought a letter from Eamon before Ostagar; therefore Eamon must not have been poisoned yet."

 

Maybe he was already ill but still capable of sending aid, or maybe his illness happened shortly after.

 

So when DA fails to manage time well (which has happened many times) Loghain defenders will pretend certain conversations just never happened to make the timeline fit better and to more importantly support their argument. It's stupid to believe the Lothering knight's specific mention of Eamon falling ill before Ostagar didn't happen or wasn't from poisoning. It's equally stupid to ignore Jowan and Isolde's account of having no reason to distrust Loghain when Jowan was sent to Redcliffe castle; obviously before Ostagar since they had every reason to distrust him afterwards. Hence, Loghain did indeed poison Eamon before Ostagar.

 

Yes, everyone must distrust this bad bad man after Ostagar because you say so. It's not as if Loghain has his own supporters after Ostagar. Oh wait, he does.

 

Nowhere did I state that Jowan and Isolde's account of having no reason to distrust Loghain should be discounted. Nor am I "pretending" certain conversations never happened. Rather, I'm embracing that they happened... while trying to make them fit into the timeline as best as possible. Unlike people who seem to ignore how the logistics of certain things don't work.

 

Hell, you wanna know something? Talk to Loghain about Jowan, Eamon, and Connor. He tells you (paraphrased) "How likely is it that Eamon didn't know his son was a mage? Eamon, the traditionalist asshat who wouldn't want his only child to go off to the Circle if he could help it?".

 

Tell me, how can we know for certain this knight's statement makes it poison, when he's the only person that mentions Eamon falling sick before Ostagar?

 

Ser Donall is the ONLY person who even mentions Eamon being sick prior to the king's death. Not even Isolde brings it up, and she's Eamon's wife and was by him throughout most of it. She was the one who sent knights out on the quest. So what makes Donall, a knight who probably doesn't interact with Eamon that much, somehow the person we should go to for insight? Sure, he mentions it, but just because he says it doesn't mean the two things are related in the sense of "poison".

 

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

[TEWR]

Loghain is just incredibly mad Cailan was planning on ditching his daughter for Celeste.

 

Again, I've taken Loghain to RtO, but it was in the context of giving Cailan to the wolves that I've never done.

 

I wouldn't be a good Loghain defender if I wasn't sparing him and taking him there, now would I?

[HiroVoid]

You see letters from Empress Celene to Cailan. An initially crumpled (assumedly by Cailan) letter discusses the idea of a "permanent alliance" between Orlais and Ferelden. It has been carefully smoothed and uncrumpled.

 

It's not directly stated outright, but it's pretty clear -- from Loghain and Wynne's banter, Alistair and Wynne's, and the subtext -- that Cailan was going to try and marry the Empress. Which of course means dropping Anora, unless Orlais and Ferelden's marriage laws are more open than we know.

There's also the fact the dlc was advertised as seeing content that was cut from DA:Origins, and the original reason Loghain betrayed Cailan was because he was going to dump Anora for Celene betraying the two things he held closest - Anora and Ferelden.  In other words, the reason why some plots look weird is because that was how the plot was originally, and it changed meaning Loghain no longer had motivation to betray Cailan there.  Gaider also already confirmed it wasn't planned out a long time ago, and plenty of other facts all the way back when DA:O came out.  Trust me.  I and I believe TEWR were around back then.

[gottaloveme]

Duncan delivered Eamon's message but how long between receiving the message from Eamon himself to delivering it to Cailan? Jowan, in the dungeons of Redcliffe, says that Loghaihn himself gave commissioned him to poison Eamon. The timings are off.

 

This is the game where Morrigan's ritual is done on the eve of battle while they are still at Redcliffe and yet to march to Denerim.

 

Also, why did Duncan not do more to convince Cailan to stay back? Certainly he was avid for glory but surely Duncan could have done more to make things more to Loghain's strategies. However, his sending Alistair to light the beacon does (presumably) get his brother out of danger.

[dragonflight288]

Duncan delivered Eamon's message but how long between receiving the message from Eamon himself to delivering it to Cailan? Jowan, in the dungeons of Redcliffe, says that Loghaihn himself gave commissioned him to poison Eamon. The timings are off.

 

This is the game where Morrigan's ritual is done on the eve of battle while they are still at Redcliffe and yet to march to Denerim.

 

Also, why did Duncan not do more to convince Cailan to stay back? Certainly he was avid for glory but surely Duncan could have done more to make things more to Loghain's strategies. However, his sending Alistair to light the beacon does (presumably) get his brother out of danger.

 

And Jowan was captured just outside of Redcliff, as told by the templar Imnirick who is in Howe's dungeon, whereas Loghain had been at Ostagar the whole time. Loghain most likely hired him on his way back to Denerim and before the Landsmeet. 

 

Yes, and by the time you would get to Denerim on a forced march, the embryo would remain in the same state as it was on the eve of battle, the most early stages of the first trimester, probably just barely getting a heartbeat. In the end though, I'm not sure what your point was with that as that has nothing to do with Loghain. 

 

Duncan had tried. He tried urging Cailan to wait for reinforcements, which he tells the Warden that asks what he would have the king do when we first arrive at Ostagar. He also tried to talk Cailan out of being on the front lines by reminding him of the possibility of the archdemon appearing. Granted, Duncan could've tried better, but Loghain was pushing hard as well to keep Cailan off the front lines. 

 

Also, in DA2, Lord Herriman (if you worked with Meeran in the prologue) is revealed to have provided aid to Loghain during the blight, and offered aid to Ferelden refugees after the blight, he hired the Antivan crows, and there are multiple mercenary companies we can talk down or end up in conflict with in Denerim. Loghain wasn't opposed to foreign aid, just Orlesian aid because he didn't trust them, and with good reason. Orlais entered Nevarra on the same banner of peace during the third blight that they offered to Ferelden for the fifth, but in the third they never left Nevarra, occupied it before they eventually were driven out by the Nevarrans. 

[gottaloveme]

@ dragonflight

 

just an example of how time doesn't always fit between story and action. I wasn't sure of the timing between finding Jowan, him being (IIRC) in Denerim and being approached by Loghain. Jowan then has to return to Redcliffe and poison the arl. When the warden reaches Redcliffe the arl has been sick for some time. How long then were the wardens out of action in Flemeth's hut.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Alistair was a bit overemotional at that time, due to Duncan's death.He may simply have convinced himself the battle was winnable when it was not, for no other reason than he owed it to Duncan's memory.

I think he and the warden were able to see something out of the window, but not likely the details. From his vantage, It may have looked like Cailan could have won, when that was not actually the case at all.

That doesn't add up with what we see in the cutscene either. We can see the darkspawn still entering the valley. If Alistair can see anything at all that should have been obvious even from that height.