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[knightlyEnigma]

 

I've never had to either.

 
=>Back away slowly

 

Hatred can be felt by nearly everyone, but should not act upon it, embrace it, nurture it, and/ or plan to rule a nation because of it. Having an excuse is no reason; justifying it in one's mind does not equate to justice. Am all for patriotism, but cannot support murder, slavery, and Loghain's other crimes that are crafted thru his hatred of Orlais.

 
I respect your view, but would you expect a solider who fought in a war to free his country from these people to NOT be paranoid and hating of them? He has seen a lot from the Orlesians and I will go out on a limb to say they were not very good things. Also, when you defeat him at the landsmeet, he seems more than willing to step down and allow you control over his and the countries fate because he believes you strong enough to (and because you'll most likely be killing him. very soon. now.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

  
=>Back away slowly

Hey, I don't kill her often.

[Zjarcal]

Apparently dogs are so much better than people . No selling dogs to foreigners!

Dogs are totally better than most people anyway.

[CrimsonN7]

Dogs are totally better than most people anyway.

Normally I don't agree with anything you say as you're insane but... I agree with you here.

[Elhanan]

I respect your view, but would you expect a solider who fought in a war to free his country from these people to NOT be paranoid and hating of them? He has seen a lot from the Orlesians and I will go out on a limb to say they were not very good things. Also, when you defeat him at the landsmeet, he seems more than willing to step down and allow you control over his and the countries fate because he believes you strong enough to (and because you'll most likely be killing him. very soon. now.)

I can understand why they hate, but cannot sympathize with it. It is this type of hatred that has led to problems suffered after WW2, Korea, Vietnam, etc., as well as social and economic confrontations. And it takes a severance from that POV to halt the cycle.

As for Loghain, would he have been as willing if the Warden had been from Orlais? His hatred blinded him to the idea that a Warden was needed to end the Blight, so he tried to kill all of them; his countrymen included.

A tragic villain for certain, but have no remorse over his death.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As for Loghain, would he have been as willing if the Warden had been from Orlais? His hatred blinded him to the idea that a Warden was needed to end the Blight, so he tried to kill all of them; his countrymen included.

While I agree that Loghain is not the most logical of creatures, it's unfair to suggest that he would have concluded the Wardens were literally necessary were he otherwise. Bear in mind that the Wardens keep the secret of why they're necessary secure. The only evidence Loghain had that they were needed was that the last Four Blights had been ended by Wardens. That isn't proof, it's circumstantial evidence. And while we can argue back and forth about how strong it is, it simply isn't as strong as a claim like "You have to be a member of this order of warriors to manage to kill an Archdemon" should require before you should take it seriously. Now I'll grant you that he might have been more open to the idea of a large Orlesian army (with about 200 Wardens thrown in) being helpful if he were thinking more clearly, but why would he conclude they were necessary?

[Elhanan]

Actually, the time between Blights helps indicate the foolishness of his plan to eliminate the Wardens, as this circumstantial evidence should have been enough to warrant the possibility it was true, and without them, he was sending Ferelden to it's demise. Proof? Perhaps not, but 4 out of 4 seems like a fairly persuasive argument to at least consider for Plan B.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually, the time between Blights helps indicate the foolishness of his plan to eliminate the Wardens, as this circumstantial evidence should have been enough to warrant the possibility it was true, and without them, he was sending Ferelden to it's demise. Proof? Perhaps not, but 4 out of 4 seems like a fairly persuasive argument to at least consider for Plan B.

I'm confused as to why the time between Blights is evidence of the Wardens' argument. If you meant that the Wardens being allowed to exist between Blights is evidence that they're necessary, it's not. It's evidence that the Orlesians, the Marchers, and the Tevinters believe them to be so (or pretend they so believe.) As for the rest of it, keep in mind that the Wardens controlled the only flying creatures on the battlefield apart from the Archdemon (and no longer do) and that there's only four cases to work on. Also keep in mind that we don't know if Loghain knew about the Joining ritual (apart from the darkspawn hunt that the recruits went on, which is presumably the tale the Wardens spun about Daveth and Jory's deaths) before he took the potion. If he knew there was a potion made of darkspawn blood then yes, he should have at least considered the possibility of the Wardens being strictly necessary on the basis of the circumstantial evidence of the Blights and the interesting detail of the potion. If not, though, I'd again submit that there's simply not enough in front of Loghain that wouldn't happen in a version of Thedas where the Wardens weren't simply playing up (or inventing, since this is that kind of setting) an interesting coincidence.

[Elhanan]

Only four cases to work on? This ain't the weekend Wollup match results, but national catastrophes that threaten the world. And if all four had a Warden directly involved in the end result, it would seem prudent to keep one around in case the homicidal plans involving the King did not work.

And it has been some time since I have played, but someone had the ingredients removed from storage. Yet they appear suddenly if Loghain is allowed the Joining. This suggests that he or his minions knew something of the ritual.

He may have been a pet lover, as well as a General of renown, but his actions were short-sighted and hateful; not worthy of his own legend.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Only four cases to work on? This ain't the weekend Wollup match results, but national catastrophes that threaten the world. And if all four had a Warden directly involved in the end result, it would seem prudent to keep one around in case the homicidal plans involving the King did not work.

And it has been some time since I have played, but someone had the ingredients removed from storage. Yet they appear suddenly if Loghain is allowed the Joining. This suggests that he or his minions knew something of the ritual.

If Loghain knew precisely what those ingredients were being used for (knowing they're there doesn't mean he knows that they go into a potion that is then drunk and sticks around in the bloodstream), then I'll grant you it should have occurred to him the finished product (ie the Warden him/herself) might have something to do with slaying the Archdemon. At that point, even if he didn't believe the Wardens were strictly necessary (because to be honest, that's still not enough evidence to make that conclusion if you're being at all scrupulous about sticking to logic) he should have at least tried to keep one around to see if there was anything to the legend.

 

Though maybe that's why you're taken alive by Cauthrien? It might have been because Loghain wants to publicly execute you for the murder of Rendon Howe, except that any companion you bring except for Alistair gets to walk, and any one of them might have been the one to actually kill him.

[Elhanan]

Alchemical components in storage without a proper recipe would not be helpful to untrained Wardens, so it seems likely that one existed at some point. It is also know that it is likely a death sentence, so it is reasonable that it is not used beforehand.

And Cauthrien does not appear to try very hard to take the Warden alive, as the Warden must surrender. A guess: she is simply trying to remain loyal to Loghain; a man who is quickly falling in favor with many, and is trying to retain her image of him as best as she is able.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Alchemical components in storage without a proper recipe would not be helpful to untrained Wardens, so it seems likely that one existed at some point. It is also know that it is likely a death sentence, so it is reasonable that it is not used beforehand.

And Cauthrien does not appear to try very hard to take the Warden alive, as the Warden must surrender. A guess: she is simply trying to remain loyal to Loghain; a man who is quickly falling in favor with many, and is trying to retain her image of him as best as she is able.

It's also known that Loghain had a copy of the recipe, but well enough encrypted that Riordan didn't think Loghain had been able to get it cracked. How much confidence Riordan should have given the code is somewhat less clear, since we're unable to match Weisshaupt's coders with Howe and Loghain's breakers.

 

I never let myself lose that fight (save-scumming ftw) but apparently she does take you alive if you do. Companions still walk.

[congokong]

I'm sure even Hitler had a soft side.

[Elhanan]

It's also known that Loghain had a copy of the recipe, but well enough encrypted that Riordan didn't think Loghain had been able to get it cracked....

This is new to me; where was this verified?

And surrendering to Cauthrien leads to one of the more humorous quests in the game; highly recommended to do this once, but leave Sten out of the original raid at Howe's estate. One may also defeat Cauthrian twice; once at the Estate, but then lose to her subordinates to simulate a surrender, and then again right before the Landsmeet. This can net two of her greatswords; a nice set of trophies for that Warden.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

This is new to me; where was this verified?

If you hand Riordan the papers you find in Howe's room, this encrypted recipe is one of the things in them.

[Elhanan]

I recall the conversation now; misunderstood thinking that Loghain had his own encrypted copy, and not Riordan's. Thanks.

That still leaves Loghain with the components, the recipe, and the knowledge that they were needed for those wanting to become Warden's. Add in the fact the Joining kills many, and this should have given greater weight to the idea that Warden's were made for a reason; were not simply another merc guild.

But perhaps his greatest flaw was allowing Arl Howe to have so much influence.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I recall the conversation now; misunderstood thinking that Loghain had his own encrypted copy, and not Riordan's. Thanks.

That still leaves Loghain with the components, the recipe, and the knowledge that they were needed for those wanting to become Warden's. Add in the fact the Joining kills many, and this should have given greater weight to the idea that Warden's were made for a reason; were not simply another merc guild.

But perhaps his greatest flaw was allowing Arl Howe to have so much influence.

Again: we don't know whether or not Loghain knew what the recipe said or what it was used for. If he did, he should have put two and two together and realized there was a chance the Wardens were literally necessary. (Though none of this is actual proof.) If not, then despite his very real flaws (and I'm not denying he had a number of them) his conclusion was the logical one.

 

And no arguments about that bastard Howe. Seriously. I don't know if Loghain could have lost the Landsmeet otherwise, since Howe's actions were the major catalyst for Anora finding the Warden and without him you wouldn't be able to make the "Torturing Innocents" argument. And without the queen you couldn't make the "Slavery" argument, even assuming that wasn't Howe's idea all along. (Though it's not the seal of Highever or Amaranthine on the papers.) Howe was also the one to tick off Vaughn, who might very well have gone with Loghain otherwise. The "Family Matter" noble was also someone who Howe's actions had turned to the Wardens' banner. You'd still be able to make the "Blood Mage" argument, since that was Loghain's decision rather than Howe's, except that you only find him because Howe's actions coincidentally drew the Warden to the dungeon Irminric was kept in: even if Anora defected without Howe's encouragement, the process of doing so wouldn't likely have involved Irminric.

[Elhanan]

Loghain knew about the components, recipe, likelihood of death, and their link to becoming a Warden, as he was at Ostegar when theywere used there, and he had them confiscated from the warehouse leaving the other Grey Warden relics behind. It is not logical to believe this strategist and tactician could not associate their importance, or of the need for Wardens.

It is only a guess, but perhaps there is something in the book lore that may further explain his hatred towards Orlais and possibly the Wardens, as I have only played the games and read these forums. But it is that hatred which undermined his judgment, and his legacy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain knew about the components, recipe, likelihood of death, and their link to becoming a Warden, as he was at Ostegar when theywere used there, and he had them confiscated from the warehouse leaving the other Grey Warden relics behind. It is not logical to believe this strategist and tactician could not associate their importance, or of the need for Wardens.

It is only a guess, but perhaps there is something in the book lore that may further explain his hatred towards Orlais and possibly the Wardens, as I have only played the games and read these forums. But it is that hatred which undermined his judgment, and his legacy.

Again: we don't know how much Loghain knew about the recipe (since it was in a code we don't know that he'd managed to break) or the Ostagar Joining (since while he could have been told by Duncan, he might have heard second-hand from Cailan, or he might have sent a spy to watch the proceedings we can't know that any of these happened.) How dumb he was to not take into account the possibility of the legends being true depends to a large extent on how much of the evidence that he could have found he actually found. (Now, if I'm wrong on any of these points, feel free to point it out. And if I am wrong Loghain looks just a bit dumber than he otherwise would for not having at least considered that the Wardens really were needed.)

 

And while I haven't read them either, Loghain apparently caught some of the Wardens involving themselves in a scheme with the Architect and some Orlesian Reclamationists (ie the party Loghain assumes any Orlesian belongs to) to Taint every single living thing in Thedas. The word "caught" is being used loosely, since Loghain only arrived towards the end and didn't see much of what happened. Duncan turned on the schemers well before Loghain arrived, thus managing to win Maric's friendship, approval, and future cooperation. Loghain was apparently kept in the dark about much of this, and I'm not sure Maric told him even enough to make clear that Duncan was trusted for a reason. (And given that Maric apparently had a history of trusting people he shouldn't, Loghain could very well view Maric's trust of Duncan as evidence against him. When you think about it, it's not much bigger a logical error than Loghain typically makes.)

 

To expand on this, I think I remember reading on TV Tropes that Loghain had a history throughout the books of assuming that whenever something odd happened, it was an Orlesian plot to take over Ferelden, and while he never had the details right he was never wrong that a plot existed and that the events he reacted to were related to it. If you think about it Ostagar (as he and Word Of Gaider portray it) was the same way. Loghain sees a beacon getting lit late, and assumes it was an Orlesian plot to kill Cailan. In fact there was an Orlesian plot involving Cailan, but one that depended on Cailan not dying and subsequently marrying the Empress of Orlais.

[dragonflight288]

Nah, Alistair doesn't seem to think of himself as burdoned or victimized, at least by Duncan and the Wardens. He feels Duncan was the very first person who ever cared about what he wanted in life and saw him as a pseudo-father figure. 

 

But he is far more devastated by Duncan's death than he is by Cailan's. The words he'll use to kill Loghain if he's the one who duels him is "Forget Maric, this is for Duncan." He suffers survivors guilt and lays all the blame on Duncan's death on one man.

 

He also avoids responsibility if he can help it, unless he's hardened then he'll actually be happy taking the throne and starts taking a stand on more issues, even in dialogue with companions. 

 

I guess the best way I can express how I feel between Alistair and Loghain is pretty simple. I like Alistair, he's a good friend and my Amell warden eventually came to see him as a brother in all but blood, but I simply don't respect him. He ditches his responsibilities to lead the Wardens, as the senior of the two wardens, he defers to a raw recruit. He actively avoids bringing up the subject of being Cailan's half-brother, and thus the heir to the throne until we approach Redcliff, and even then it's only if he's in the party. If he isn't, he simply avoids bringing it up at all until after Eamon has recovered and our Warden is going "Huh? You think Alistair has a stronger claim to the throne than Anora, the widow of the late king has? Something you forgot to mention dude?" And unless he's hardened, he's essentially a puppet on the throne for Eamon. Eamon says it well, "He knows how to lead troops into battle, he knows how to turn to the Maker for guidance, and he knows who to turn to should that training fail him." Everyone knows that Eamon is the only person Alistair would go to for help unless our Warden becomes Chancellor. 

 

Loghain, I didn't start out liking him, but when I gave him a chance, listened to him, it altered my perspective and I grew to respect him. He has many faults, and I strongly disapprove of him selling elves into slavery to fund the war since the Civil War drained the treasury, and I also strongly disapprove of him hiring a blood mage, and an incompetent one at that, to poison Eamon, but Loghain has not really committed anything worse than what companions like Zevran or Leliana have done as an assassin or bard. Play Leliana's Song DLC, and she can be pretty dang nasty in that first segment, before she is betrayed by Marjoline. 

 

And before anyone says Loghain betrayed his king by abandoning him at Ostagar, Zevran helped slaughter an entire royal family, he tells you about it as the largest battle he participated in. 

[Tremere]

It's easy to say that with the benefit of hindsight.

 

But without knowing whether or not each decision made by the Warden or Loghain would pay off, the rightness/wrongness of these decision is suddenly not so clear, given the Blight and military-necessary caused by it.

I'm inclined to agree with you... In principle at least. Considering the fact that there were alternatives on all sides... Different choices could have (should have?) been made. Having said that, I have a hard time seeing anything good in betraying your king, selling an already downtrodden people into slavery, laying the blame for your treachery on others, etc, etc...

[Tremere]

Hey, I don't kill her often.

I don't ever "not" kill her.

"Churl indeed."