252 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

About Loghain:

Having an understanding of your enemy and some empathy with him will not (or should not) prevent you from judging him for what he did, but it will make you consider him as a human instead of a monster, something that everyone deserves. It marks the difference between justifying to kill someone out of hand with no consideration at all and thinking about what kind of reaction the things he did require.

To let hate rule your actions without being tempered by fairness and justice makes *you* evil, regardless of whether your hate can be considered justified.

[Jeffonl1]

About Loghain:Having an understanding of your enemy and some empathy with him will not (or should not) prevent you from judging him for what he did, but it will make you consider him as a human instead of a monster, something that everyone deserves. It marks the difference between justifying to kill someone out of hand with no consideration at all and thinking about what kind of reaction the things he did require.To let hate rule your actions without being tempered by fairness and justice makes *you* evil, regardless of whether your hate can be considered justified.

Second this!

[dragonflight288]

I liked your post, even though I disagreed with some. As for Alistair, just to be clear... I don't think he's worse than Loghain, for sure. He's a much better person by far. No argument there. I only think he's a worse character. Slight difference. I might like him more if he had been a minor character, but instead, I'm expected to deal with him on a major level.

 

As for his problems, they seem like "first world problems" relative to everyone else. I'll leave my pity for the likes of Shale or someone like that. Or more importantly, my own Wardens. Every single Origin story is sadder than anything Alistair knows. If I wanted emotional content, I would have liked even more dealing with each origin.

 

This is more of a side point, but I dislike how the game subtly tries to make the Warden and Alistair one and the same. Like our characters have a shared experience and shared grief with him. About Ostagar. About Duncan and the Grey Wardens. The emotional things that resonate with me are the origins. Not Ostagar or Duncan. Yet that's all Alistair sees and all he wants to address.

 

And we as players get to choose how to address that. "He was like a father to you, I understand," vs "Oh good grief, THIS AGAIN!?!"

[Jaison1986]

I liked your post, even though I disagreed with some. As for Alistair, just to be clear... I don't think he's worse than Loghain, for sure. He's a much better person by far. No argument there. I only think he's a worse character. Slight difference. I might like him more if he had been a minor character, but instead, I'm expected to deal with him on a major level.

 

As for his problems, they seem like "first world problems" relative to everyone else. I'll leave my pity for the likes of Shale or someone like that. Or more importantly, my own Wardens. Every single Origin story is sadder than anything Alistair knows. If I wanted emotional content, I would have liked even more dealing with each origin.

 

This is more of a side point, but I dislike how the game subtly tries to make the Warden and Alistair one and the same. Like our characters have a shared experience and shared grief with him. About Ostagar. About Duncan and the Grey Wardens. The emotional things that resonate with me are the origins. Not Ostagar or Duncan. Yet that's all Alistair sees and all he wants to address.

 

I second that. It bothered how the game tried to subtly shoehorn simpathy for characters like Duncan and Cailan. I never like those people, neither I see the need to do it just to make Alistair feel a little better about himself. You know, the irony is, that Duncan himself was one of the main reasons for me to spare Loghain.

 

To be more precise, these were my feelings during the situation: I did not wish to behead a man in front of his own daughter neither in front of an entire crowd after he surrendered. I feel like an savage doing that. And also there is some poetic justice about Loghain not being punished about Ostagar. Duncan in my view wronged not only me for forcing me to take the joining, but Jory wife for leaving her child fatherless just to convenience himself. He did not deserved revenge or justice if you ask me. So instead of dying just because Alistair is too biased about Duncan, I allow Loghain to be of service. Alistair can be as bitter as he wants while he sits on the throne. 

[General TSAR]

One of us...one of us.....

 

Also listen to his rant when asked about his hate, it's glorious. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And before anyone says Loghain betrayed his king by abandoning him at Ostagar, Zevran helped slaughter an entire royal family, he tells you about it as the largest battle he participated in. 

This doesn't make Loghain any better. Also, I don't think Zevran ever helped slaughter an entire royal family: in his largest mission he was working for the king of Antiva, who was presumably the head of Prince Azrin and Princess Ferenna's family and who was trying to stop its members getting Crow'd, therefore he's probably not killing the entire thing.

[dragonflight288]

This doesn't make Loghain any better. Also, I don't think Zevran ever helped slaughter an entire royal family: in his largest mission he was working for the king of Antiva, who was presumably the head of Prince Azrin and Princess Ferenna's family and who was trying to stop its members getting Crow'd, therefore he's probably not killing the entire thing.

 

I know, I was using it as an example that Loghain isn't better, but he's not as bad as what some of our companions have done, or at the very last, he's not worse than them. 

 

And you're right, I got that story mixed up with when Zevran says that only one time the entire house of Crows was hired to deal with a royal family, and not a one survived. 

 

EDIT: And let me ask a question. If we recruited Loghain, did not suffer or feel the affects of his actions at Ostagar and throughout, say if the game took place in Orlais and Loghain was a Warden companion there, and as we grew in friendship and he confided in us what he did, would we still judge him as harshly?

Modifié par dragonflight288, 26 juin 2014 - 03:37 .

[yk1468]

This doesn't make Loghain any better. Also, I don't think Zevran ever helped slaughter an entire royal family: in his largest mission he was working for the king of Antiva, who was presumably the head of Prince Azrin and Princess Ferenna's family and who was trying to stop its members getting Crow'd, therefore he's probably not killing the entire thing.

Sten murdered a family, and Loghain sees the error's of his ways once he becomes a grey warden. I think its because he lost Maric he became bitter and didn't know what he was doing. But I like the fact that defeat means friendship, and I believe that everyone would have sparred him if it wasn't for Alistair. But believe it or not Alistair does eventually forgive you but hes' still bitter about it. (hardened Alistair that married Anora)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I'm inclined to agree with you... In principle at least. Considering the fact that there were alternatives on all sides... Different choices could have (should have?) been made. Having said that, I have a hard time seeing anything good in betraying your king, selling an already downtrodden people into slavery, laying the blame for your treachery on others, etc, etc...

 

What I was trying to say was that the things Loghain did while in power was motivated mainly by military necessity, not for the sake of committing those evil actions. One can similarly rationalize any of the Warden's atrocities along the same lines, like the fellow I was responding to. Only difference I see is that the Warden's atrocities work out, just as his/her good and lawful acts always work for the same reason -- the plot is on his/her side. So this whole thing ultimately boils down not to "good versus evil" but "rightness versus wrongness."

 

And with hindsight and the plot on your side, it's easy to say Loghain was wrong. Without them, there's no more or less reason to believe what he tried to do would work against the Blight than anything the Warden tries to do.

[theskymoves]

... I believe that everyone would have sparred him if it wasn't for Alistair... 

 

No. 

[yk1468]

No. 

Ok not everyone.

[Jaison1986]

Not everyone, no, but I'm pretty sure an considerable number of people would have considered it. If people can recruit Zevran, Sten, and hell, even Velanna, I don't see why Loghain is an exception.

[Elhanan]

Not everyone, no, but I'm pretty sure an considerable number of people would have considered it. If people can recruit Zevran, Sten, and hell, even Velanna, I don't see why Loghain is an exception

Because the Warden would not have been subjected to the entire series of events had Loghain not tried to kill the Warden several times. And I believe my Human Noble Warrior did not save Sten or Zevran for those reasons; seen as more murderous thugs like the ones used to slaughter his family.

Most of my Warden's kill Loghain, except for the ones with mystical insight that he could be useful down the road.

[dragonflight288]

Because the Warden would not have been subjected to the entire series of events had Loghain not tried to kill the Warden several times. And I believe my Human Noble Warrior did not save Sten or Zevran for those reasons; seen as more murderous thugs like the ones used to slaughter his family.

Most of my Warden's kill Loghain, except for the ones with mystical insight that he could be useful down the road.

 

The Warden really wouldn't have been subjected thanks to Loghain? Really? Okay, walking around with a bounty on our head is his fault, and Loghain did arrange for Eamon to be poisoned, but pretty much everything else that our Warden goes through is not Loghain's fault. Heck, even the situation in Redcliff cannot be solely placed on Loghain's shoulders. He shares some blame, yes, because he hired Jowan to poison Eamon. But Jowan also shares some blame as the one who poisoned Eamon, Isolde shares a huge chunk of the blame for her secrecy in hiring an apostate to tutor Connor and her insistence that Eamon be kept from learning Connor is a mage. And if she hadn't sent most of the knights away to help find the Urn of Sacred Ashes, Redcliff may have had a large enough force to keep the demon from doing too much damage. And Connor shares some blame, less than anyone else, since all he wanted to do was help his father, had an incompetent for a tutor, and didn't know about demons or spirits in the Fade. 

 

Loghain is responsible for a lot, but he's nowhere close to being responsible for everything. 

[Deathsaurer]

Are you really trying to shift the blame to a guy that got exploited because he was lined up for an execution and a kid that wanted to save his father?

[dragonflight288]

Are you really trying to shift the blame to a guy that got exploited because he was lined up for an execution and a kid that wanted to save his father?

 

Nope, just laying out all the cards on that whole situation. Jowan may have felt pressured, but he did do it willingly, and then proceeded to take full accountability for his actions, accepting everything, even execution without any complaint. I mean, he DID poison the Arl, so he does share in the blame, but Isolde has a large share of it as well, and so does Loghain for hiring Jowan in the first place, and even Connor to a much lesser extent than everyone else. 

 

It's not shifting blame around to protect a character, it's simply laying out all the facts and acknowledging that there's plenty of blame to go around, some are more responsible than others, but there are so many variables that if any one of them didn't happen, the incident in Redcliff may never have happened. 

 

If Isolde wasn't so caught up on secrecy, Connor would've been in the Circle and no demon would've been summoned, but Loghain would still probably have sent someone to poison Eamon, only Connor wouldn't be there to be desperate and get possessed. If Loghain hadn't sent Jowan to poison Eamon, Isolde would still have sought out an apostate to train Connor in secret. If Isolde hadn't sent all the knights away in search of the Ashes, Redcliff's forces might have been strong enough to fight back against the demon and keep the village from being attacked, and so on. 

 

Redcliff simply had lousy luck that so many negative variables happened all at once. 

[Deathsaurer]

It is shifting the blame because Loghain used his status as the Hero of River Dane to manipulate a man that had been sentenced to death. Not pressured, manipulated. Like dude legitimately said Eamon was a threat to Ferelden.

[Elhanan]

Loghain is also indirectly responsible for Howe's crimes. Allowing that snake to continue after full knowledge of his murders, attempted murders, and duplicitous schemes adds to the growing list of Loghain's own misdeeds.

And by placing a bounty of the head of the remaining Warden's pretty much drives the majority of the story.

[Jaison1986]

It is shifting the blame because Loghain used his status as the Hero of River Dane to manipulate a man that had been sentenced to death. Not pressured, manipulated. Like dude legitimately said Eamon was a threat to Ferelden.

 

Are you deaf? Giving credit were is due is not shifting the blame. Dragonflight openly stated that Loghain still holds responsability. He is not handwaving what Loghain did.

[Deathsaurer]

He is shifting the blame because it's absurd to place any legitimate blame on the person that got manipulated. Yes, his actions made the situation worse. His actions he believed were in the best interest of his country because that's what its greatest "hero" told him. When he realized the truth he wanted to fix things. Loghain deserves all the blame for what played out there for his deceitful actions in regards to Jowan.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain is also indirectly responsible for Howe's crimes. Allowing that snake to continue after full knowledge of his murders, attempted murders, and duplicitous schemes adds to the growing list of Loghain's own misdeeds.

And by placing a bounty of the head of the remaining Warden's pretty much drives the majority of the story.

We don't really know just how much attention Loghain was paying to Howe's actions. Letting this kind of thing happen out of ignorance would be horrible too, but not as much as if he knew and signed off on it. (Of course, I'm inclined to believe that it was a combination of the two, in which Loghain didn't know all of what Howe was doing but knew enough that he should have at least considered an "accident." Of course, I can see why he didn't decide to have Howe killed. The country was disintegrating around him, and were it me I'd want the Bannorn, the darkspawn, and the Orlesians [if necessary] sewn up before risking alienating a de facto Teryn.)

 

As for the bounty: if we go by the interpretation that he didn't charge because he knew it would be pointless (which his dialogue during RtO and Word Of Gaider both support), then the beacon getting lit late (according to Alistair) could credibly look like someone sabotaged the thing. And the only men (for a given definition of the word, if you're playing female) who don't answer to Loghain in that Tower? If you accept his retreat at Ostagar as a premeditated betrayal, you can blame him for this. But if Ostagar was the right call, this is at least a comprehensible decision.

 

 

He is shifting the blame because it's absurd to place any legitimate blame on the person that got manipulated. Yes, his actions made the situation worse. His actions he believed were in the best interest of his country because that's what its greatest "hero" told him. When he realized the truth he wanted to fix things. Loghain deserves all the blame for what played out there for his deceitful actions in regards to Jowan.

 

To give Loghain all the blame is a bit unreasonable. He was doing something a bit underhanded* at Redcliffe involving an apostate and Connor's untrained apostate status. Maybe he should have seen an abomination attack coming, or maybe not: to the best of my knowledge he has no experience with an abomination's power or the idea that a mage can theoretically become one at any point. At any rate it was still Isolde who gave him the opening he used.

 

*Water is slightly damp and a heavy metal concert is a noticeable amount of noise.

[Deathsaurer]

I'm not saying he should have expected the demon. That would be unreasonable. I'm saying it was him manipulating Jowan to poison Eamon that caused everything to happen the way it did and he is to blame for that. If he hadn't manipulated Jowan maybe a different Apostate would have caused something worse, maybe they wouldn't have. We can't know that. All we can know is the results of his scheme.

 

I'm also not buying into the idea he thought the Grey Wardens intended the beacon to be lit late. It'd take an incredibly paranoid mind to think the newbies would sacrifice all the experienced guys for some sort of political gain like that.

[Elhanan]

We know thru the Human Noble origin that the King was informed of Howe's slaughter, and indirectly so was Loghain. We know that Howe hired Antivan Crows to kill the Wardens, that Elves in the Alienage were being herded into slavery, etc. Yet Howe remained in power until his demise. And if Loghain was inattentive towards other crimes, that also indicates a lack of leadership, and a failure of administrative duty.

Be it premeditated or not, trying to place blame and death on known innocents and witnesses is reprehensible on it's own. But several believe it was treasonous: Flemeth, Morrigan, Alistair, the Warden, Wynne, Carver, Aveline, and possibly others. As do I.