252 réponses à ce sujet

[Tremere]

What I was trying to say was that the things Loghain did while in power was motivated mainly by military necessity, not for the sake of committing those evil actions. One can similarly rationalize any of the Warden's atrocities along the same lines, like the fellow I was responding to. Only difference I see is that the Warden's atrocities work out, just as his/her good and lawful acts always work for the same reason -- the plot is on his/her side. So this whole thing ultimately boils down not to "good versus evil" but "rightness versus wrongness."

 

And with hindsight and the plot on your side, it's easy to say Loghain was wrong. Without them, there's no more or less reason to believe what he tried to do would work against the Blight than anything the Warden tries to do.

For the record, my response was based on your comment as it stood. Hindsight and plot had no bearing outside of reference.

The one thing that I think is often overlooked in regards to Loghain is *hubris*. While never stated, it was clear (by virtue of his actions), that any strategy beyond his own was unacceptable to him. Had this not been the case, he'd likely not have done half the things he did. Many will and have argued that he had his reasons, but ultimately, even he realized the error of his ways. Not that I've ever heard it expressed.

[Deathsaurer]

We know thru the Human Noble origin that the King was informed of Howe's slaughter, and indirectly so was Loghain. We know that Howe hired Antivan Crows to kill the Wardens, that Elves in the Alienage were being herded into slavery, etc. Yet Howe remained in power until his demise. And if Loghain was inattentive towards other crimes, that also indicates a lack of leadership, and a failure of administrative duty.

 

Only in the Human Noble origin should he have any reason to know what Howe did, which Howe spun as them being traitors. Doesn't negate claims of incompetence though and makes one wonder just what the hell he was thinking bringing Howe with him in the greeting party. That is intentionally provocative for no good reason.

[Jaison1986]

This isn't about me or you. I said his problems are weak relative to others in DA. Not us. In our world, I'd have sympathy. I just don't care to hear it in this game. His story is not compelling. His problems amount to a lot of B.S. Only Wynne is about the same - but not even her either. While she shares the experience of being taken from a family and living in the Circle, she also had to lose her son. Leliana also didn't have much family life, but she's also a victim of gang rape. Everyone trumps Alistair's woes. Yet my game experience doesn't hang on nurturing their emotions, like it does with him.

 

In my opinion, his only useful purpose (character wise) is to be a romance. Otherwise, I don't see what the big deal is about Alistair.

 

That all said, I still make him king on some playthroughs. It's not like I think he's bad or needs to die.

 

I think the simplest way of saying it is, unlike all other companions, Alistair doesn't talk about his problems, he whines about them. I think this is the most irritating think about him. No matter what we talk about, our companions never dwell too much on the bitterness of the past. They share it with you once and that's about it. While Alistair aways keeps going back to Duncan almost all the time and start sobbing. I felt genuinely bad for Alistair when he talks about how Isolde sent him away to the Chantry. But everytime it's about Duncan, I just roll my eyes.

[Elhanan]

Only in the Human Noble origin should he have any reason to know what Howe did, which Howe spun as them being traitors. Doesn't negate claims of incompetence though and makes one wonder just what the hell he was thinking bringing Howe with him in the greeting party. That is intentionally provocative for no good reason.

That may be incorrect, as any Warden gains the Howe lands at the conclusion for crimes, and also loses the Cousland estate, I believe. But there are plenty of atrocities for both Howe and Loghain to share, including the arrogance they had to believe they could succeed in their plans.

[Deathsaurer]

That may be incorrect, as any Warden gains the Howe lands at the conclusion for crimes, and also loses the Cousland estate, I believe. But there are plenty of atrocities for both Howe and Loghain to share, including the arrogance they had to believe they could succeed in their plans.

I was under the impression we were talking about Ostagar at which point no one would know what Howe did unless you're playing Human Noble because there wouldn't be a Cousland to tell them. Obviously Loghain would find out later but without the Cousland and Duncan as witnesses there is no one to dispute Howe's claims until his corruption is made obvious later.

[Elhanan]

Not certain of this, but some may have escaped the estate slaughter. Ser Gilmore's dead lookalike can be seen later on in the prisons of Denerim, and slaves were seen departing elsewhere during the battle itself. It is possible there were witnesses.

[Deathsaurer]

None of them would be in a position to dispute his claims let alone to anyone important enough for it to matter.

[Pateu]

I think the simplest way of saying it is, unlike all other companions, Alistair doesn't talk about his problems, he whines about them. I think this is the most irritating think about him. No matter what we talk about, our companions never dwell too much on the bitterness of the past. They share it with you once and that's about it. While Alistair aways keeps going back to Duncan almost all the time and start sobbing. I felt genuinely bad for Alistair when he talks about how Isolde sent him away to the Chantry. But everytime it's about Duncan, I just roll my eyes.

 

He's a 20 year old bastard that was abandoned, sent to the chantry, became a warden- the only person he ever respected/loved was betrayed and died along with his half brother and his army, oh and the rest of the wardens too- and is now forced to be the companion of Morrigan the awful.

 

Give the poor guy a break.

[Elhanan]

Gossip and the grapevine are fairly influential, esp in the military, based upon my brief experience. And it may be mentioned in other origins; unconfirmed, but this is written in the Wiki entry for Highever.

[TheMadHarridan]

I do feel sorry for Alistair's rotten past, and I love him as a character. However, I really do wish he would at least try to be more rational at times. Like with the Connor/Isolde issue, particularly if you side with the Templars in Broken Circle. You have to either kill a little boy or his guilty mother. Either way you go, Alistair throws a tantrum, even though you had to either choose one option or the other. However, the worst part about that is that Alistair himself says that killing Connor may be your only option. If that's so and killing the lad is the way you choose to go, why does Alistair feel justified in screaming at you about it? He SUGGESTED it, and then he rants at you about doing it. Makes no sense.

 

Secondly, of course, is the spare/kill Loghain situation. I understand he's furious about all that Loghain did, and he has every right to be. My Wardens are not to happy themselves. However, I wish the devs had given us the option to look at Alistair and say WWDD (What would Duncan do?)? If Alistair really thought about it, he couldn't deny that Duncan would recruit Loghain in a heartbeat without regard to his personal feelings concerning the man. Wardens are crucial to the Blight's defeat. Duncan knew that. Alistair knows that to (even though he doesn't know about the AD death issue yet). Wardens are still required to defeat the Blight, no matter who they are or what they've done.

 

Also, Alistair completely disregarded Riordan's input on the situation. Alistair basically told him in a roundabout way to shut up and sod off. Riordan is the senior Warden and has probably been a Warden since Alistair and our Wardens were in diapers, if not longer. Is it unreasonable to expect Alistair to at least acknowledge the fact that Riordan just might know more than he does? Even with my very first Warden (and with no meta-gaming), I was at least willing to listen to Riordan because he obviously knew significantly more about "righteous Grey-Wardening" (thanks Carroll) than my Warden did at that point.

 

Sigh. Again, I do love Alistair, but sometimes you have to let your mind lead instead of your heart and emotions. Definitely not the easiest thing to do, but sometimes the wisest.

[Pateu]

Alistair is just emotional.

 

Again, 20 year old bastard that lived like **** his whole life and when he finally found happiness everyone gets backstabbed.

 

 

And about Connor well... I guess he feels like Connor is his nephew or something. He cares deeply for the Redcliffe folk. He's most likely mad at the situation itself, not the Warden.

[Tremere]

Agreed so much. I think this is often overlooked, if not forgotten

 

Pride is a really huge overarching theme in this game and shows up with many characters. Howe slaughtered and usurped the Couslands because he felt he deserved more (even with his dying breath), and committed many atrocities during his reign as the Arl of Denerim (kidnapped and tortured nobles, purged and enslaved the alienage) because he was so smug he assumed nothing could touch him. Uldred became susceptible to Loghain's promises and the Pride Demon because of his pride.

 

As for Loghain, it is acknowledged in-game. Right after the battle, when Alistair asks why would Loghain do this, Flemeth speculates "Perhaps he thinks the darkspawn is an army he can outmaneuver." Supported by the fact that months after Ostagar, he still insists it's no true Blight, they don't need Grey Warden help, and he alone can lead the armies and nobles to defeat the darkspawn. Near the Landsmeet, if you harden and talk to Alistair, he'll say words to the effect of, "That's Anora's and Loghain's problem. They think they alone know what's best for Ferelden, and everyone else needs to just get out of the way."

 

If that's not pride, I don't know what is.

We are in total agreement! Kudos!

[dragonflight288]

He is shifting the blame because it's absurd to place any legitimate blame on the person that got manipulated. Yes, his actions made the situation worse. His actions he believed were in the best interest of his country because that's what its greatest "hero" told him. When he realized the truth he wanted to fix things. Loghain deserves all the blame for what played out there for his deceitful actions in regards to Jowan.

 

Very well. I'll let you keep your ideas that if a man poisons another man, the man who did the poisoning is not responsible for it, even if he was hired or under duress. 

 

I mean, a poisoner, even one who may have been lied to, is obviously innocent of poisoning another man right, and is in no way guilty of committing a crime. According to your logic. Is this not so?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Very well. I'll let you keep your ideas that if a man poisons another man, the man who did the poisoning is not responsible for it, even if he was hired or under duress. 

 

I mean, a poisoner, even one who may have been lied to, is obviously innocent of poisoning another man right, and is in no way guilty of committing a crime. According to your logic. Is this not so?

While I agree that Jowan had alternatives, I will note that he had no particularly nice alternatives. He really was in kind of a Corleone-offer position. I'm not saying he's not guilty, I'm just saying he's guilty of the mitigated version of his offense.

[Deathsaurer]

Your countries greatest hero walks up to you and says I need this man dead because he's trying to destroy the country. I can't do it publicly because he is well liked. If you do this you will be a savior. You have zero reason to doubt him because you aren't up to date on current events due to being in prison. Who is the real offender here? We're not talking a hardened assassin, we're talking a guy that was sentenced with death that got tricked into thinking he was doing the right thing and instantly wanted to fix the mess he made when he realized just what he set in motion regardless of what happened to him. At worst he is guilty of attempted manslaughter.

 

And I should say had Eamon actually been a legitimate threat I wouldn't have a problem with the poisoning to avoid a war. The issue here is it was used to silence a political opponent because he was afraid he couldn't beat him in a debate at the time.

[Elhanan]

Not buying this. Jowan also knows he is a Blood mage and criminal, and if the countries greatest leader is asking you to commit murder, at least one alarm bell should have rang then. Also it can be confirmed that Eamon is well liked, and that there is no plot to destroy the country after starting work for the family. More bells likely.

They are both guilty; simply add stupidity to Jowan's list.

[Deathsaurer]

How is he going to confirm anything? Ask Eamon?

[Elhanan]

Being a spy means keeping eyes and ears open. There was no plan to destroy Ferelden, so no evidence towards that end to find; only troops being gathered to aid the King's forces.

And if he had a thought in his head, the plan could have changed to simply use coercion to silence Eamon, or reveal Conner as a Mage. But Jowan is a bit dense; must be the blood loss.

[Elhanan]

All the decent Rogues remained out of jail, but yeah; Jowan was likely it.