He was picked because he doesn't think like a spy though. Gotta get the gullible ones that have death sentences otherwise they'll, you know, think about stuff.
All this time, I hated Loghain's treachery.
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, juin 18 2014 09:38
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#102
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 03:33
Elhanan
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Jowan did not think much period. That said, he and Loghain are both guilty, and the latter does not even deserve to have a dog.
#103
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 04:57
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Jowan did not think much period. That said, he and Loghain are both guilty, and the latter does not even deserve to have a dog.
The boy he used to be deserved a dog though.
Which is mostly anyone's point.
Or at least, it's my only point. He's a bastard of the highest order. But he isn't a monster. I'm not convinced he's unredeemable (I think few people are). Nor do i like executing people who surrender. Jowan deserves a chance as well.
I might've even given a Vaughn a chance, if he hadn't insisted on keeping the girls with him.
#104
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 05:03
Pateu
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But he isn't a monster
Says you.
From my point of view, letting your best friend's son and army die, poisoning Eamon, sending assassins after the only guy that had no fault whatsoever in this whole mess and allowing slavery are pretty monstrous actions.
#105
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 05:12
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Says you.
Yes, I believe I did say it. What's your point? I'm not trying to speak for anyone but myself in the first place.
If I were to guess, I'm probably the minority anyways. People believe in monsters everywhere. I'm probably a "monster" to some person out there myself. Hopefully not, but you never know.
#106
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 05:54
dragonflight288
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I find it funny that he went through all that trouble to hire a mage, only to do a rogue's job.
According to Isolde, she trusted Loghain to find her an apostate. It's true he hired a mage to do a rogues job, but the job Isolde wanted required a mage.
#107
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 06:13
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According to Isolde, she trusted Loghain to find her an apostate. It's true he hired a mage to do a rogues job, but the job Isolde wanted required a mage.
I know. It's just amusing to me. He got the worst person to do a job fit for someone clever.
I guess Jowan succeeded though, more or less.
#109
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 06:29
dragonflight288
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While I agree that Jowan had alternatives, I will note that he had no particularly nice alternatives. He really was in kind of a Corleone-offer position. I'm not saying he's not guilty, I'm just saying he's guilty of the mitigated version of his offense.
It's true and I never said otherwise, mitigated responsibility is not the absence of any responsibility. Loghain would have more responsibility than Jowan, but as Jowan is the one who did the deed, he shares in the blame.
I'm not sure why people dispute this little fact. Ah well.
#110
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 06:35
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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I find it funny that he went through all that trouble to hire a mage, only to do a rogue's job.
Isolde wasn't hiring rogues at the moment.
#111
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Posté 27 juin 2014 - 06:38
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On a huge sidenote, one thing I hate about DAO (and maybe DA in general) is how anything resembling modern democratic ideals is depicted as sinister or evil somehow. Or associated with blood mages or Tevinter. Or something. Political reform and the power of the common man or freedom always seems to have a dark side. Like with Loghain and Jowan (or rather mages in general). These guys have admirable goals when it comes down to it -- but there's so much ugliness associated with their behavior.
While traditionalists and monarchy and nobility (the Chantry, the importance of the "Theirin" bloodline, or Eamon) rarely have a dark side. They seem like the good guys all the time.
The same thing applies to Bhelen and Harrowmont. Apparently you can't depict a political reformer without making him look like the worst choice somehow.
#112
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 06:56
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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On a huge sidenote, one thing I hate about DAO (and maybe DA in general) is how anything resembling modern democratic ideals is depicted as sinister or evil somehow. Or associated with blood mages or Tevinter. Or something. Political reform and the power of the common man or freedom always seems to have a dark side. Like with Loghain and Jowan (or rather mages in general). These guys have admirable goals when it comes down to it -- but there's so much ugliness associated with their behavior.
While traditionalists and monarchy and nobility (the Chantry, the importance of the "Theirin" bloodline, or Eamon) rarely have a dark side. They seem like the good guys all the time.
The same thing applies to Bhelen and Harrowmont. Apparently you can't depict a political reformer without making him look like the worst choice somehow.
You're only half-right. While you've hit the nail on the head with everything resembling modern democratic ideals, everything else in this setting has a dark side too. The nobility in Orlais is mostly dark side, and even in Ferelden there's scum like Vaughn. And the Theirin bloodline? Well, when we first meet Maric, we find him used to power a machine which works on the premise that he's descended from a Reaver.
#113
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 06:59
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You're only half-right. While you've hit the nail on the head with everything resembling modern democratic ideals, everything else in this setting has a dark side too. The nobility in Orlais is mostly dark side, and even in Ferelden there's scum like Vaughn. And the Theirin bloodline? Well, when we first meet Maric, we find him used to power a machine which works on the premise that he's descended from a Reaver.
Perhaps I just mean DAO, for the most part. To me, it seems purposeful. Almost subliminal messaging throughout the game that sort of nudges you to help old nobles, monarchy, traditionalism, and all that good stuff. Other ways of life are associated with criminals or demons more often.
#114
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 07:04
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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Perhaps I just mean DAO, for the most part. To me, it seems purposeful. Almost subliminal messaging throughout the game that sort of nudges you to help old nobles, monarchy, traditionalism, and all that good stuff.
Even just in DAO, we still have Vaughn and Howe. I'm at a loss as to how those two are democratic. Meanwhile pretty much the closest thing to democracy in the game is the Landsmeet, and except for Ceorlic, Vaughn, and Loghain (and the latter is debatable) pretty much everybody is doing what they do for the right reasons. You can point out their errors, but under it all they're good people who you can lead to do the right thing. (Just try not to think too hard about how they'd treat your elven Warden were he/she not a Warden.)
As for the criminals, that's portrayed to a large degree as a result of the actions of nobles. The dwarven nobility essentially created the Carta by creating Dust Town, and if you point this out to Harrowmont he pretty much brushes it off. The weapon smugglers in the Alienage were created by the need to circumvent biased laws too. Read one of the notices in the alienage and then tell me how noble the aristocracy looks.
#115
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 07:14
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Even just in DAO, we still have Vaughn and Howe. I'm at a loss as to how those two are democratic. Meanwhile pretty much the closest thing to democracy in the game is the Landsmeet, and except for Ceorlic, Vaughn, and Loghain (and the latter is debatable) pretty much everybody is doing what they do for the right reasons. You can point out their errors, but under it all they're good people who you can lead to do the right thing.
As for the criminals, that's portrayed to a large degree as a result of the actions of nobles. The dwarven nobility essentially created the Carta by creating Dust Town, and if you point this out to Harrowmont he pretty much brushes it off. The weapon smugglers in the Alienage were created by the need to circumvent biased laws too. Read one of the notices in the alienage and then tell me how noble the aristocracy looks.
Yeah I don't think Howe represents democracy either. lol. Not sure where he fits.
It's not a overwhelming thing I detect btw.. just a little nudge I get when playing the game. Especially when it comes to main plots/forced quests. Basically, it's like I'm supposed to feel bad if I do anything short of what Alistair and Eamon want. I'm supposed to feel dishonorable (at least until the Epilogue) if I side with Bhelen. And I'm supposed to mourn Cailan no matter what.
Funnily, in Cailan's case, even Loghain gets pissed at me if I let the darkspawn have his corpse. He still believes Cailan deserves respect, if only because a King is a symbol.
#116
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 07:24
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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Yeah I don't think Howe represents democracy either. lol. Not sure where he fits.
It's not a overwhelming thing I detect btw.. just a little nudge I get when playing the game. Especially when it comes to main plots/forced quests. Basically, it's like I'm supposed to feel bad if I do anything short of what Alistair and Eamon want. I'm supposed to feel dishonorable (at least until the Epilogue) if I side with Bhelen. And I'm supposed to mourn Cailan no matter what.
To be fair, the decisions Alistair supports usually are the ones that you'd feel good doing anyway. The one big exception that comes to mind is executing Loghain, which is a decision that some people feel dirty going along with him on. And there are hints before the epilogue that Bhelen taking the crown will result in a nontraditional, not entirely disastrous ending. (Especially if you played DC.) As for Eamon, what exactly do you do when he and Alistair don't agree? Maybe on something important, like who gets the throne?
Funnily, in Cailan's case, even Loghain gets pissed at me if I let the darkspawn have his corpse. He still believes Cailan deserves respect, if only because a King is a symbol.
Loghain just wants to remove a symbol of the darkspawn triumph. His preferred choice is leaving him to the wolves, which is pretty iconoclastic if you ask me.
#117
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 07:33
gottaloveme
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Why use Jowan to poison Eamon? A blood mage apostate. A poor witness against Loghain in the Landsmeet if it comes to that.
Isolde - poor witness against Loghain as she is Eamon's wife and Orlesian.
Berwick - poor witness because he is an elf
Howe - everyone knows how treacherous he is and his good fortune is bound up with Loghain.
The whole feel of the game is mediaeval Europe and I don't think they were that big on democracy.
Loghain seems to be the best (not favourite) character in the game from all the postings generated about him. Off with his head.
#118
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 07:40
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Why use Jowan to poison Eamon? A blood mage apostate. A poor witness against Loghain in the Landsmeet if it comes to that.
Isolde - poor witness against Loghain as she is Eamon's wife and Orlesian.
Berwick - poor witness because he is an elf
Howe - everyone knows how treacherous he is and his good fortune is bound up with Loghain.
The whole feel of the game is mediaeval Europe and I don't think they were that big on democracy.
Loghain seems to be the best (not favourite) character in the game from all the postings generated about him. Off with his head.
Democracy barely existed in medieval Europe.
The difference here is that it does. The seeds of it at least are planted everywhere. It's just associated with nasty people more than often. As if you have to sell your soul in one way or another, just to champion any of those ideals.
It applies to DA2 somewhat as well. With Anders. In order to support mages, you have to end up going to extremes and help a terrorist. You can never quite do the right thing with the "right methods". More often, it's the right thing, but with ugly methods.
#119
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 07:51
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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Democracy barely existed in medieval Europe.
The difference here is that it does. The seeds of it at least are planted everywhere. It's just associated with nasty people more than often. As if you have to sell your soul in one way or another, just to champion any of those ideals.
You have to oversimplify a lot to call anything in this setting a democracy, though, even if you take into account the obvious modern influences. Ferelden is the closest thing to a democracy, and the same ruling family has been in power since their ancestor founded the country. And of course there's the fact that while the lore states that the people choose the noble they answer to (which doesn't make sense in the context of certain nobles controlling actual cities anyway), the fact remains that there are nobles. And of course it's a major rule of this setting that the elves don't have any say in anything.
#120
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 07:54
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You have to oversimplify a lot to call anything in this setting a democracy, though. Ferelden is the closest thing to a democracy, and the same ruling family has been in power since their ancestor founded the country. And of course there's the fact that while the lore states that the people choose the noble they answer to, the fact remains that there are nobles. And of course it's a major rule of this setting that the elves don't have any say in anything.
No, you're right. It doesn't exist in any solid way. I'm just saying there's a pervasive tone from certain circles/factions. Certain plots. Like it's brewing in the corner in many areas. But often trying to support it requires shedding some principles (like with Bhelen). Loghain is also a symbol for something different. Not just him, but how he rewards people based on merit (like Ser Cauthrian). He represents a different kind of world order, although he's not quite there yet. But his methods are atrocious. He doesn't have the good nature of Bryce Cousland or Eamon. Siding with him in any way is something you're kind of supposed to feel bad about.
My point though is that I just find the underlying message here kind of sad. You can never quite champion freedom (like with mages) or helping commoners elevate themselves without looking like an evil douche.
#121
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 08:00
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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No, you're right. It doesn't exist in any solid way. I'm just saying there's a pervasive tone from certain circles/factions. Certain plots. Like it's brewing in the corner in many areas. But often trying to support it requires shedding some principles (like with Bhelen). Loghain is also a symbol for something different. Not just him, but how he rewards people based on merit (like Ser Cauthrian). He represents a different kind of world order, although he's not quite there yet. But his methods are atrocious. He doesn't have the good nature of Bryce Cousland or Eamon.
Everything in this game requires you to shed at least one principle. If nothing else you're shedding pragmatism when you do the feel-good decision of leaving a demon unattended in Redcliffe Castle to run for exorcism supplies, putting an untrained ruler on the throne against his will because he's a good person with the right father, or backing a werewolf tribe and trying to force its creator to cure them despite not technically being capable of forcing him to do so.
#122
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 08:05
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Everything in this game requires you to shed at least one principle. If nothing else you're shedding pragmatism when you do the feel-good decision of leaving a demon unattended in Redcliffe Castle to run for exorcism supplies, putting an untrained ruler on the throne because he's a good person with the right father, or backing a werewolf tribe and trying to force its creator to cure them despite not technically being capable of forcing him to do so.
Now we're getting somewhere.
The difference I see with making those choices is no one contests them. There's not much explicit said about them to make you feel guilt. No one tells you it's stupid to leave Redcliffe. You're rarely made to feel bad about the "feelgood" choices. As for Alistair, Anora is the only one telling you those things about him. It's kind of an unfair position to put her character in. She's just introduced minutes before. While on the other hand, you spend the whole game with Alistair. There could've been a better buildup to this situation.
#123
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 08:07
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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Now we're getting somewhere.
The difference I see with making those choices is no one contests them. There's not much explicit said about them to make you feel guilt. No one tells you it's stupid to leave Redcliffe. You're rarely made to feel bad about the "feelgood" choices. As for Alistair, Anora is the only one telling you those things about him. It's kind of an unfair position to put her character in. She's just introduced minutes before. While on the other hand, you spend the whole game with Alistair.
Anora doesn't need face-time. She has common sense on her side. (And Alistair, unless you harden him.)
Besides, isn't that the point of the Bhelen choice? The "feelgood" choice coming back to bite an entire city?
#124
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 08:13
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Anora doesn't need face-time. She has common sense on her side. (And Alistair, unless you harden him.)
Besides, isn't that the point of the Bhelen choice? The "feelgood" choice coming back to bite an entire city?
Oh, I disagree with that. She does have common sense, but I could've used more Anora in the game, personally. And I think others could've used it. She seems misunderstood to me. Especially from Alistair romancers. But then, maybe they can't be convinced anyhow. Heh
As for Bhelen, every character could've used the same insight into Orzammar politics that the Dwarven commoner had. Not that we need to know Rica on other origins, but something related to castes that was more explicit. There isn't a whole lot of political info in those quests except the town criers.
#125
Posté 27 juin 2014 - 08:14
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My point though is that I just find the underlying message here kind of sad. You can never quite champion freedom (like with mages) or helping commoners elevate themselves without looking like an evil douche.
That's not entirely true. There is the quest "Zerlinda's Woe" where you can help a woman who gave birth to a legally casteless baby get out of Dust Town. The evil douche decision would be the Orzammar-traditional thing: kill the kid. The "help the commoner" decisions would be to help her reunite with her family (it only just occurred to me that they'll probably poison the kid, so here's another "feelgood" decision with plenty of Fridge Horror) or tell her to leave for the surface.
