252 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I haven't done that myself, but I think what the point is that though he was the king, Cailan's body shouldn't be given a special funeral when there were hundreds of soldiers who are going to be left to the wolves and forgotten. Cailan wanted to play at war and I think Loghain wants his body to receive the treatment every other soldier will get.

 

But that's simply my take on it.

I wasn't paying much attention, but I believe Loghain heavily implies that to be his take on this when asked why he objects to giving Cailan as close to a royal sendoff as the situation allows. (If memory serves it was my dwarven prince who got that dialogue, after trying to give Cailan a princely funeral and before giving up and allowing Loghain his way.)

[gottaloveme]

@deinonslayer
I swear, I did not arrange this, and I had never seen the animation before so I didn't realize what was about to happen. After the Ogre picked my Warden up and before it could deliver the finishing blow, time slowed, and Loghain leapt up onto its chest, stabbing it with his sword and bringing it down to the ground (freeing my Warden in the process), where Loghain delivered a finishing stab directly between the eyes.

 

sounds like a normal killing blow glitching up. would love to see it myself. However, it would never happen for me with Loghain at the helm.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@deinonslayer
I swear, I did not arrange this, and I had never seen the animation before so I didn't realize what was about to happen. After the Ogre picked my Warden up and before it could deliver the finishing blow, time slowed, and Loghain leapt up onto its chest, stabbing it with his sword and bringing it down to the ground (freeing my Warden in the process), where Loghain delivered a finishing stab directly between the eyes.

 

sounds like a normal killing blow glitching up. would love to see it myself. However, it would never happen for me with Loghain at the helm.

Glitching? I thought all of that was supposed to happen.

[Elhanan]

I haven't done that myself, but I think what the point is that though he was the king, Cailan's body shouldn't be given a special funeral when there were hundreds of soldiers who are going to be left to the wolves and forgotten. Cailan wanted to play at war and I think Loghain wants his body to receive the treatment every other soldier will get.


But that's simply my take on it.

This appears to me an example of eisegesis; interpreting the material from one's own ideas rather than the content itself. This is not the meaning I received at all, though taking Loghain along at least once gives some deeper reasoning for his treachery.

[Jedimaster88]

Fun fact:

 

In my very first playthrough of origins, Loghain´s actions were partly the reason I supported Bhelen in Orzamar. When that one woman tells how Harrowmont is a great, respected and a trusted general, I immediately started to think how this sounds so very familiar. I had my doubts about Bhelen as well but still a desicion had to be made so I chose Bhelen.

[TEWR]

I've always taken Loghain to Ostagar (which I don't perceive as a betrayal or treachery, given the evidence that supports retreat being necessary) but what I meant was that I've never given Cailan over to the wolves.

[Jaison1986]

I've always taken Loghain to Ostagar (which I don't perceive as a betrayal or treachery, given the evidence that supports retreat being necessary) but what I meant was that I've never given Cailan over to the wolves.

 

I wish there was an option to simply bury him on a grave. Giving him to the wolves is a little mean on my opinion, but at the same time giving him a funeral pyre is more then he deserves.

[Elhanan]

Cailan is dead, so it matters little to him what happens. Funerals are for the living and the Warden, so for us I choose to remember him in character as King; not as a Player for details possibly gather OOC.

[congokong]

I've always taken Loghain to Ostagar (which I don't perceive as a betrayal or treachery, given the evidence that supports retreat being necessary) but what I meant was that I've never given Cailan over to the wolves.

 

Yes, because retreating worked out so well for Lothering and most other places of Ferelden. The evidence supports that the blight was left unchecked because of Loghain's treachery up until the Hero of Ferelden was able to unite the lands for the standoff against the archdemon. Loghain's actions scattered the armies and made the Warden's job monstrously more difficult.

 

No betrayal? So playing along giving everyone false hope only with the premeditated action of betrayal is not betrayal? He even poisoned Arl Eamon beforehand to make crowning himself have less resistance after Ostagar.

 

People who do evil things usually believe what they're doing is right/necessary in their own minds. Hitler thought so too.

[Mike3207]

Yes, because retreating worked out so well for Lothering and most other places of Ferelden. The evidence supports that the blight was left unchecked because of Loghain's treachery up until the Hero of Ferelden was able to unite the lands for the standoff against the archdemon. Loghain's actions scattered the armies and made the Warden's job monstrously more difficult.
 
No betrayal? So playing along giving everyone false hope only with the premeditated action of betrayal is not betrayal? He even poisoned Arl Eamon beforehand to make crowning himself have less resistance after Ostagar.
 
People who do evil things usually believe what they're doing is right/necessary in their own minds. Hitler thought so too.

There is no comparison between Hitler and Loghain, no matter how many times you put it in a post.

We don't know that the betrayal(if there was one) was premeditated.it could have been a spur of the moment decision.

I'm not convinced the poisoning was done beforehand.I think it's possible, but I'm not willing to state it as a fact.

[congokong]

There is no comparison between Hitler and Loghain, no matter how many times you put it in a post.

We don't know that the betrayal(if there was one) was premeditated.it could have been a spur of the moment decision.

I'm not convinced the poisoning was done beforehand.I think it's possible, but I'm not willing to state it as a fact.

 

There is a comparison between Hitler and Loghain no matter how many times you state there isn't.

 

Arl Eamon was poisoned beforehand. When you talk to one of Eamon's knights in Lothering he states such. It's why Isolde and Jowan trusted Loghain at the time.

[Lavaeolus]

Don't like how Hitler is always presented as this devil figure. Oh, sure, it is needless to say I disapprove of his actions. But the guy wasn't some puppy-kicking, cackling maniac. You say, as though it were certain, that executing Hitler would be the right decision.

 

But it isn't, and if it was certain it still isn't a decision I'd make with no hesitation. If Hitler was in my grasp, if his threat were neutralised, and he pledged himself to me -- then I would spare him every time. There's no justice in the world, just a whole lot of people lost astray. If you can point them in the right direction, you do so. You do the best you can.

 

Besides this, Loghain's idea of "a greater good" is one entirely different from Hitler's. It is much more difficult to justify things done in the name of his cause, than things done in the name of saving everyone in Ferelden from near-slavery and the world from darkspawn-death. Hitler's cause was hardly just "save Germany", after all.

[Elhanan]

Hitler was more into conquering and power; Loghain was an isolationist. Both did things that were abhorrent, but that could be said of many infamous characters. End of politics before Lock.

Loghain was not some green First Lieutenant, but was an experienced General. It is highly unlikely that many decisions made were simply spur of the moment. At best, if this is the case, it makes his plans for Ostegar weak, short sighted, and unworthy of him. At worst, it was planned and he killed the King, the Wardens, and almost destroyed Ferelden with the Blaight even before the Archdemon makes an appearance. No thumb's up from me.

[congokong]

@Lavaeolus

 

That's why Hitler is a great real life tyrant to compare to Loghain. He's often depicted as "evil" yet even he had redeeming qualities. Like you said, he wasn't some black/white evil monster. I'm sure if people traveled Ferelden with him and heard his sob story some on these boards would come to like and/or defend him. But without this bias most people would want him executed for his actions like Loghain.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes, because retreating worked out so well for Lothering and most other places of Ferelden. The evidence supports that the blight was left unchecked because of Loghain's treachery up until the Hero of Ferelden was able to unite the lands for the standoff against the archdemon. Loghain's actions scattered the armies and made the Warden's job monstrously more difficult.

 

No betrayal? So playing along giving everyone false hope only with the premeditated action of betrayal is not betrayal? He even poisoned Arl Eamon beforehand to make crowning himself have less resistance after Ostagar.

 

People who do evil things usually believe what they're doing is right/necessary in their own minds. Hitler thought so too.

That doesn't really answer TEWR's argument: namely that we have some reason to believe the soldiers under Loghain's command would have died to no benefit to anyone should Loghain have charged.

[Elhanan]

The charge that never happened had a chance at saving the King, Duncan, and the Wardens thru tactical retreat at the least. Most certainly men would have died, but better trying to do something than nothing.

Wonder if Loghain would have made that same call if Anora or Ser Cauthrian had been leading?

Let him live once for the deeper backstory, but he still serves as a glorious example of villainy; not nobility.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The charge that never happened had a chance at saving the King, Duncan, and the Wardens thru tactical retreat at the least. Most certainly men would have died, but better trying to do something than nothing.

Wonder if Loghain would have made that same call if Anora or Ser Cauthrian had been leading?

Let him live once for the deeper backstory, but he still serves as a glorious example of villainy; not nobility.

The King was right in the middle of it. What chance do you call that?

 

As for the second paragraph, Loghain heavily implies that the answer is "yes" when Wynne asks. His exact words were "Had I raised her to be such a fool as that, I'd have been in no better position to save her."

[dragonflight288]

I wish there was an option to simply bury him on a grave. Giving him to the wolves is a little mean on my opinion, but at the same time giving him a funeral pyre is more then he deserves.

 

It's better than leaving his body for the darkspawn to toy with. Not the most regal sendoff, but there are worse things.

[dragonflight288]

There is no comparison between Hitler and Loghain, no matter how many times you put it in a post.

We don't know that the betrayal(if there was one) was premeditated.it could have been a spur of the moment decision.

I'm not convinced the poisoning was done beforehand.I think it's possible, but I'm not willing to state it as a fact.

 

Gaider, the lead writer, confirmed it was a spur-of-the-moment-last-minute-decision. 

[Elhanan]

The King was right in the middle of it. What chance do you call that?
 
As for the second paragraph, Loghain heavily implies that the answer is "yes" when Wynne asks. His exact words were "Had I raised her to be such a fool as that, I'd have been in no better position to save her."

Any chance, even a small one is better than none. Once rolled 00 on the DM's die in full view to save my character; achievement unlocked!

As for the other point, then Loghain as the mentor, instructor, and General of the King has to accept that same title and failure for implementing the plans that killed Cailan. Either way, planned or not, Loghain fails Ferelden.

[dragonflight288]

Any chance, even a small one is better than none. Once rolled 00 on the DM's die in full view to save my character; achievement unlocked!

As for the other point, then Loghain as the mentor, instructor, and General of the King has to accept that same title and failure for implementing the plans that killed Cailan. Either way, planned or not, Loghain fails Ferelden.

 

So sacrificing the whole of the army to save a single man, thus leaving Ferelden completely defenseless is worth it?

[Elhanan]

So sacrificing the whole of the army to save a single man, thus leaving Ferelden completely defenseless is worth it?

Unless one has certainty that it was to be a total failure, action over inaction is preferable. It was his plan, afterall, and it should have worked; correct?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Any chance, even a small one is better than none. Once rolled 00 on the DM's die in full view to save my character; achievement unlocked!

As for the other point, then Loghain as the mentor, instructor, and General of the King has to accept that same title and failure for implementing the plans that killed Cailan. Either way, planned or not, Loghain fails Ferelden.

I hope you didn't sacrifice the rest of the party's characters to get that dice roll. They would have had every right to be irritated with you, especially if they could have escaped otherwise. Of course, it's only if you did that this makes a decent analogy: rolling percentile dice to save one person with nobody else at risk is one thing, sacrificing a large number of other people's lives for a tiny chance to save one is another. (Minor digression: details, because that sounds like a cool story.)

 

As for the second point, you can make that case. But even overlooking the fact that to some degree Cailan was tying his hands (the dialogue makes very clear it was not Loghain's idea for Cailan to be in the part of the army that he might have needed to sacrifice) and the fact Loghain's plan might have turned the tide if it weren't for the horde being just that big, for the problem to be Loghain's fault in the first place wouldn't mean that Loghain's decision to sacrifice Cailan and his men wasn't the only option left by the time he made that call.

 

 

Unless one has certainty that it was to be a total failure, action over inaction is preferable. It was his plan, afterall, and it should have worked; correct?

Loghain's arguing he was certain such an effort would fail, and it's hard to argue against him when you see the size of the horde over the bridge at Ostagar. Don't forget that you win the Battle Of Denerim because the Horde retreats after you kill the Archdemon; if the spawn had had the mental wherewithal to keep fighting they probably would have kept the city on merit of sheer numbers.

[dragonflight288]

Unless one has certainty that it was to be a total failure, action over inaction is preferable. It was his plan, afterall, and it should have worked; correct?

 

It would've worked if several things hadn't happened. 

 

1. The beacon was lit late because the Tower of Ishal was taken.

2. Cailan was an idiot and fired only a single volley of arrows before leading a heroic (and pretty cool looking) charge outside of his defensive line and thus got himself and his men surrounded on all sides in the name of glory. 

3. The darkspawn horde was STILL coming out of the wilds in that brief overhead view after we light the beacon, so the horde was not committed. 

 

The plan was to lure the darkspawn into a bottleneck chokepoint, get them committed, and have Loghain come in from the flank them in a hammer/anvil, Cailan's forces (that Loghain most adamantly did not want him part of,) were to hold the line and when the whole horde was committed, Loghain would come in and strike hard. Thing is, the plan fell apart before Cailan's forces even clashed because Cailan led a charge out of the line and into the open, so Loghain's plan wouldn't have worked there because it was no longer being acted on. 

 

I know that if I was the general leading the army there, and saw what was going on, I would also think a strategic retreat would be preferable in that situation, as far as I could see, the battle couldn't be won under those circumstances. Even if I led the charge, or in this case, Loghain, the odds were that Cailan and Duncan would still be dead before Loghain and his army could get close enough to help those two. 

[Jaison1986]

That was an rather dumb military strategy. And I bet Cailan suggested it considering it's style. Instead of charging, the soldiers should have held position and bottlenecked the darkspawn in the defensive position they were in. And keep shooting arrows against the incoming enemy while the front troops hold the line.