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All this time, I hated Loghain's treachery.


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#201
Elhanan

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That was an rather dumb military strategy. And I bet Cailan suggested it considering it's style. Instead of charging, the soldiers should have held position and bottlenecked the darkspawn in the defensive position they were in. And keep shooting arrows against the incoming enemy while the front troops hold the line.


You mean the strategy that Loghain had to refresh for the King before the battle? Am thinking that everyone in the camp was speaking of Loghain as the tactician, and that Cailan was following the lead.

#202
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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You mean the strategy that Loghain had to refresh for the King before the battle? Am thinking that everyone in the camp was speaking of Loghain as the tactician, and that Cailan was following the lead.

In context, I think he was specifically referring to the part of the plan where Cailan charges forward, instead of waiting for the horde to come to him and continuing to soften them with arrows. Which, although not completely at odds with the plan as Loghain suggested it, isn't exactly spelled out by Loghain as a good idea.



#203
dragonflight288

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In context, I think he was specifically referring to the part of the plan where Cailan charges forward, instead of waiting for the horde to come to him and continuing to soften them with arrows. Which, although not completely at odds with the plan as Loghain suggested it, isn't exactly spelled out by Loghain as a good idea.

 

That was what I was talking about. 



#204
Elhanan

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Yes; Cailan chose to stand with the Wardens. However, plans involving said Wardens appeared to be an utter failure, or were designed to fail. And given the history described throughout DAO and DA2, it seems to come to the same conclusions I support. Some might argue that victors write the history, yet Wardens supporting Loghain yield the same results.

Still loathe Loghain, whether he likes dogs or not.
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#205
Jaison1986

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I just watched the strategy scene, and the plan never involved charging against the darkspawn. The plan involved "drawing their attention". And I'm pretty sure they got their attention with the rain of arrows, there was no need to charge. And Loghain strategy was for Cailan forces to have the darkspawn distracted and lit the tower as signal to charge, and then the tower gets lit too late because the warden takes too long clearing the tower.



#206
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Yes; Cailan chose to stand with the Wardens. However, plans involving said Wardens appeared to be an utter failure, or were designed to fail. And given the history described throughout DAO and DA2, it seems to come to the same conclusions I support. Some might argue that victors write the history, yet Wardens supporting Loghain yield the same results.

Still loathe Loghain, whether he likes dogs or not.

Loghain's pretty easy to hate for various reasons. Still, could you please clarify the second half of the last sentence of the first paragraph? I don't get what you were saying there, as a counterargument for winners writing history.



#207
Elhanan

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Have heard many of these apologies for Loghain before on other threads, and some suggest that the DA2 assertions of Loghain's betrayals are revisionist histony due to his loss to the Warden. Did not buy into it then, or now.



#208
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Have heard many of these apologies for Loghain before on other threads, and some suggest that the DA2 assertions of Loghain's betrayals are revisionist histony due to his loss to the Warden. Did not buy into it then, or now.

Okay, but I didn't get your counterargument for that point in the previous post.



#209
Elhanan

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Wardens that save and support Loghain in DAO still here the same reported historical narrative in DA2, which is of his betrayal, I believe.



#210
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Wardens that save and support Loghain in DAO still here the same reported historical narrative in DA2, which is of his betrayal, I believe.

The problem being that as far as I can remember there's no actual option to support his decisions: not even the Ostagar one, which is the main one I'm inclined to. You're allowed to spare him, and you're allowed to put his daughter on the throne just as he'd wanted, but I don't think you're allowed to tell him or anyone else Loghain made the right call at Ostagar. (Which is pretty jarring when you first wake up in Flemeth's hut, Alistair is blaming Loghain for not charging, and you're not allowed to point out that Alistair was pointing out they were lighting the beacon late not five minutes of game-time ago.) Nor is it entirely clear that the Warden holding those beliefs would make it into the history books, since it's the royalty you pick and the Chantry that control the books rather than the Warden.



#211
Elhanan

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Uncertain, but I believe the Wardens have an hour in which to light the Beacon.  And Both the Warden and Alistair witnessed the events on the field as the Beacon was lit.

 

But Wynne, Aveline, Carver, and possibly other witnesses all have the same basic account, which I also contend to be factual.



#212
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Uncertain, but I believe the Wardens have an hour in which to light the Beacon.  And Both the Warden and Alistair witnessed the events on the field as the Beacon was lit.

 

But Wynne, Aveline, Carver, and possibly other witnesses all have the same basic account, which I also contend to be factual.

The member of Cailan's honor guard we encounter asserted that it would have made no difference (and that Cailan knew that from the start, so I hope we're dealing with a non-reliable witness for the sake of my limited respect for him), and there's at least one Ostagar survivor still serving in Loghain's army who quite vehemently credits Loghain's retreat order with his own survival. (He's the guy you fight in the tavern at Lothering.) The survivors who aren't Loghain aren't giving a unanimous consensus. Sure you can argue they have their own motivations for saying what they do and can't necessarily be relied on, but I can say the same of yours.

 

To build off of that, despite Alistair seeing the battle he didn't seem to be watching it. He asserts that Cailan had the darkspawn, and that all that needed to happen was for Loghain to charge. This in spite of the fact that there were still darkspawn in the process of committing to the battle when Cailan and Duncan died, and that the flanking plot is helped a lot by that not being the case. And the fact that right before you light the beacon, he freely concedes that you're doing so later than you're supposed to. (I'd assert that for all we know he could be lighting the one-chance-to-get-this-right signal before it was time to charge, except that apparently there's Word Of Gaider that the Warden and Alistair were about an hour late.)

 

Go ahead and contend that the account given by a majority of the witnesses is factual, but you'd need something good to contravene all of that.



#213
Elhanan

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Time, full context, and Ser Cauthrian's own reaction to the command to leave seems sufficient.



#214
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Time, full context, and Ser Cauthrian's own reaction to the command to leave seems sufficient.

The time-span in-game, you mean? You mean the 20 minutes (give or take) you spend climbing the actual tower of a nebulous time-span that is only described as "less than an hour?" (I'm citing a walkthrough video on youtube by Serious Gaming, and this video does not include the time spent crossing the bridge or fighting the ogre. It's the first one I got searching "tower of ishal" on youtube, if you wanted to double-check me.) Never mind that the floors we see of the Tower don't line up with the height of the Tower from the outside, which means there's floors the Warden climbed that we aren't including in the time-frame and which might have had darkspawn in them too. So, that's not particularly strong evidence for your case.

 

Full context includes Loghain clearly not wanting Cailan down there, which I suppose is good evidence that Loghain knew that group might need to be screwed over, but is also evidence that Loghain did not go to Ostagar with the intent that Cailan die. And if you were referring to the evidence of Cailan's plot to divorce Anora, Loghain makes clear he did not see that coming.

 

Cauthrien's reaction to the command to leave isn't quite as strong evidence as all that: we don't get to hear the actual rationale of her objection, if she had one besides "saving the king takes precedence over rational thinking."



#215
Elhanan

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Time means the approximate decade that follows the events, eye-witness testimony from survivors of Ostegar apart from those fleeing with Loghain, and the other illegal charges with evidence leveled against the General indicating in a pattern of behavior that prove harmful to the nation. As mentioned, at best he is a failure as a tactician and leader; at worst is guilty of murder and regicide.

#216
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Time means the approximate decade that follows the events, eye-witness testimony from survivors of Ostegar apart from those fleeing with Loghain, and the other illegal charges with evidence leveled against the General indicating in a pattern of behavior that prove harmful to the nation. As mentioned, at best he is a failure as a tactician and leader; at worst is guilty of murder and regicide.

The approximate decade that follows the events is after the ones who beat Loghain have had time to write the account of his actions history will remember. I already pointed that out, and I don't remember you giving a satisfactory counterargument.

 

The eyewitness testimony from those who survived Loghain writing them off isn't any more reliable than those who have credible reason to believe he saved their lives, it's only more in line with what you're already arguing. If you think Loghain's men would have a hard time admitting that his actions which saved them from potentially dying were wrong, then try getting someone who Loghain wrote off to die to admit that there was a logical rationale for his decision. (Oh wait, Elric did admit that. And for that matter he's the only one of those survivors to even try countering the point I made that Loghain had no choice. Apart from Wynne during RtO, who kinda fails at it.)

 

That Loghain did less ambiguously villainous actions (and I'm not denying that the Alienage and his use of Rendon Howe were truly messed up and arguably make him worthy of the hate you have for him on their own) isn't good evidence that he deliberately compassed Cailan's death. Yes, it's evidence that he's capable of doing bad things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's capable of deliberately seeking his son-in-law's death: there's more people capable of having people they don't know enslaved than there are people capable of pulling a Uriah Gambit on their son-in-law. Nor would proof that he's capable of plotting Cailan's death mean that he did so.

 

As for that last bit, I'm not going to deny that Loghain was kind of a failure as a leader: I don't know if he could have united the country in the position he was in, but damn it the method he tried at that first Landsmeet after Ostagar was never going to work. (Not that I don't blame the Bannorn nobles somewhat for the Civil War.)



#217
congokong

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All this scrutinizing over tactics is irrelevant to the fact that Loghain shouldn't have been jerking everyone around by being Cailan's general if he didn't agree with it. He played along, compromised the darkspawn resistance with his lack of respect of Grey Wardens and fear of Orlais, then betrayed his king and all his men when Loghain felt the battle wasn't going to be won. Unacceptable.

 

He poisoned an Arl beforehand so he could crown himself easier should he decide to betray the king, then put the blame on the Wardens; only further weakening Ferelden. Let's not forget slavery, torture of nobles, etc. I'd need confirmation on some of those "rumors" like him burning a noble woman's lands, murders at parley, etc.

 

I'm amazed people can defend him. Those adamant about it should be defense lawyers.



#218
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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All this scrutinizing over tactics is irrelevant to the fact that Loghain shouldn't have been jerking everyone around by being Cailan's general if he didn't agree with it. He played along, compromised the darkspawn resistance with his lack of respect of Grey Wardens and fear of Orlais, then betrayed his king and all his men when Loghain felt the battle wasn't going to be won. Unacceptable.

 

He poisoned an Arl beforehand so he could crown himself easier should he decide to betray the king, then put the blame on the Wardens; only further weakening Ferelden. Let's not forget slavery, torture of nobles, etc. I'd need confirmation on some of those "rumors" like him burning a noble woman's lands, murders at parley, etc.

 

I'm amazed people can defend him. Those adamant about it should be defense lawyers.

I don't suppose I could use you as a law school recommendation?

 

Besides, I'm not defending most of that. Just the "betrayed his king and all his men when Loghain felt the battle wasn't going to be won." (Which, you know, is kind of what he was supposed to do. If there's someone who's already going to die no matter what you do, you don't sacrifice men because it'd be great to save him. It doesn't matter how cool it would be to save someone if he's already inescapably going to die.)

 

Edit: Oh, and also the "put the blame on the Wardens" bit. If Loghain really was put in a position where charging was a non-option, and it's even partially due to the signal not getting lit, it's entirely credible he might believe there's some connection between that and the literally two people in the Tower with it he can't personally vouch for.



#219
Jaison1986

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I'm more amazed that people continue to defend the wardens, Duncan and Alistair. Because apparently, the fact that Duncan say he "does what he must" aways justify his actions, no matter how wrong they are, and people just accept it with an straight face. That Alistair get's to be an hypocrite by criticizing and defying your decisions for not strictly follow his own moral compass, but will totally overlook it if Duncan is the one doing the deed. That the wardens get to trick people into recruitment, shank whoever disagrees with their orders, take advantage of other people misery to advance their own goals (see the human noble or dalish elf) and it's all justified. 

 

I actually had been seeing this an dozens times over here, first people say "oh, it's wrong to preserve the Anvil, it's an tool of evil" or "we can't kill Connor, he is just an boy", but then come the mighty grey wardens and their highly questionable actions and half the people in here will just throw their hands in the air and be like "oh no, these are the wardens, what they do is justified, it's for the greater good!" What's the bloody difference? 

 

More upsetting then seeing Loghain taking the fall for pretty much everything, I see people making an million excuses to justify the people Loghain "wronged" at Ostagar. Why is that Loghain is aways the villain and Duncan and Alistair are the good guys that can do no wrong and are aways right in their jugments?

 

Sorry if I sound too angry here, but I needed to rant, at least this once. I'm just so sick to see people giving Duncan, Alistair or the wardens in general an green card for everything. Why no one ever hold them accountable?


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#220
ShadowLordXII

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I'm more amazed that people continue to defend the wardens, Duncan and Alistair. Because apparently, the fact that Duncan say he "does what he must" aways justify his actions, no matter how wrong they are, and people just accept it with an straight face. That Alistair get's to be an hypocrite by criticizing and defying your decisions for not strictly follow his own moral compass, but will totally overlook it if Duncan is the one doing the deed. That the wardens get to trick people into recruitment, shank whoever disagrees with their orders, take advantage of other people misery to advance their own goals (see the human noble or dalish elf) and it's all justified. 

 

I actually had been seeing this an dozens times over here, first people say "oh, it's wrong to preserve the Anvil, it's an tool of evil" or "we can't kill Connor, he is just an boy", but then come the mighty grey wardens and their highly questionable actions and half the people in here will just throw their hands in the air and be like "oh no, these are the wardens, what they do is justified, it's for the greater good!" What's the bloody difference? 

 

More upsetting then seeing Loghain taking the fall for pretty much everything, I see people making an million excuses to justify the people Loghain "wronged" at Ostagar. Why is that Loghain is aways the villain and Duncan and Alistair are the good guys that can do no wrong and are aways right in their jugments?

 

Sorry if I sound too angry here, but I needed to rant, at least this once. I'm just so sick to see people giving Duncan, Alistair or the wardens in general an green card for everything. Why no one ever hold them accountable?

Long story short, the Wardens themselves are never hypocrites about what their doing.

 

What Duncan did to the human noble and dalish elf was unfortunate, but remember his perspective. The Blight is coming from the south and the fate of the world was simply more important than a political fight. Plus, Duncan saved the dalish elf because he was going to die of blight sickness anyway (saved being relative considering the Calling, but what do you want?). The wardens in Ferelden only had a few dozen in their number with the closest largest contingent of wardens too far away at that moment, Duncan had to find recruits. He also had a reason to shank Jory, if you watch the scene closely, you'll see the Duncan warns Jory as the latter is drawing out his sword. Jory initiated that fight and Duncan finished it both to preserve warden secrets and to defend himself.

 

They say so themselves, they do whatever they have to in order to fight the darkspawn. Sometimes, they find pleasing and acceptable ways (refer to most good/moral warden pcs or Duncan when he first met Maric) and sometimes, they have to use underhanded tactics (right of conscription, taking advantage of other people's misery, manipulation, etc.) You don't have to like the latter.

 

But they're not fighting for some abstract idea of the greater good. The darkspawn are a real and legitimate threat that have to be stopped. The greater good that they fight for is actually saving the world from these monsters. They're the only ones that can do it and they have to whatever they can to defend humanity. With a few exceptions, they also don't impose themselves on others unless they have no other choice, unlike the Chantry.

 

Loghain isn't so much the villain, as he is the fool whose very obstruction is dooming his own country. Plus, Alistair himself is a good and likeable guy who'll be a loyal friend if you're not a jerk. (to be fair, who wants a jerk as a friend?) But I'm not saying that the wardens are saints and you don't have to like them. It's just that the objective evidence to their capabilities and success makes them preferable to alternatives like Loghain...if that can be considered an alternative.


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#221
congokong

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Well, I've never defended the Grey Wardens on these boards. I find the Grey Warden concept to be kind of stupid with a lot of holes. It reminds me of the Night's Watch from the A Song of Ice and Fire book series which is comparably stupid.

 

How have the Wardens kept the joining, and its death probability, a secret? (except when they cherry pick like with Anora during the Landsmeet)

Why don't Wardens just go AWOL; especially when they're rapists, murderers, etc.?

How can they be so respected to the point of joining being a "reward" when there are downsides like dying young, nightmares, and consisting largely of criminals?

What do they do between blights?

If few know the true reason why they're needed why does anyone even bother with them?

 

One of my biggest peeves with Alistair is his hypocrisy. He loves Duncan for some reason and states the Wardens' "ends justify the means" mentality, yet behaves like they're white knights whenever the Warden does something questionable.

 

Ex: Killing Connor even when the Circle is gone and Jowan is dead still gets his wrath about there being "some other way."

Ex: Not paying the woman in Redcliffe for the sword when you need it to stop the blight and are already defending their village.

Ex: Preserving the Anvil of the Void

Ex: Siding with Zathrian

 

I can see defenses made for things like preserving the Anvil of the Void, but not because "The Grey Wardens do what they must." It's more because the dwarves are losing everything to the darkspawn without golems.

 

Then there are annoying instances where people justify doing absurd things like recruiting Sten or Zevran without meta-gaming because "The Grey Wardens do what's needed to end the blight." That's just an excuse to do incredibly risky things that I couldn't imagine actually doing.



#222
Jaison1986

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I'm sorry @congokong, I'm not angry with you, I mean, if you want to hate Loghain for doing the things he does, it's your right. The only thing that really upsets me is how Loghain is aways held accountable in here, and the wardens are not (and like you said yourself, you don't excuse them for what they do). 



#223
bunch1

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To the original post I never did like Loghain but that may have been since my first play through was as a Cousland and he seemed very friendly with Howe more then anything he did at Ostagar.  Of Couse as the game went on and more and more of what he was doing was revealed he earned my dislike along with Howe.  He may have been innocent once but their was a time when Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Calligula, Attila, and every other mad man who committed atrocities was innocent or respected.  Hell, Hitler was noted for heroism as a soldier in WW 1 and if he had died then no one would have a bad thing to say about him, but people change.

 

As for the battle itself you have to remember several things.

1. Loghain has no track recorded as a successful battlefield commander.  He rose to fame and glory along with Maric who was an able commander in his own right and together they led the rebellion to several major victories and crushing defeats.  Sure they were facing a larger and better trained and equipped force but that is the point, they avoided battles in the field because they had little chance of winning and so fought a guerilla campaign.  In fact Loghains ultimate victory at the Battle of River Dane was not some glorious victory in the field that proved the martial prowess of the Ferelden army, but an ambush of an army on the march not equipped or prepared for battle as they were crossing a river, likely with a long drawn out wagon train that had to be protected making it almost impossible for the Chevaliers to respond quickly enough to drive off the rebels.  I would be surprised if even half of the Orlesians had been in armor considering they are described as a heavy army most of the Chevaliers would likely have put there plate on a wagon rather then wear it during a day of long marching or riding beneath the sun.  And his victories over the other Banns during the Civil War were more then likely simply a matter of numbers and supplies.  We see that Loghains army at Ostigar is massive and fully equipped with heavy chain and with his power as regent he set about rebuilding the royal army adding it to his own.  The Banns may have been able to gather enough men if they were united but they are prone to infighting and petty grudges that divided them and have to equip them with their own coin from a few farm holds.  I'm not saying Loghain isn't cunning or efficient, but I do feel he is given more credit then he deserves as a general.

 

2. Callen offers to postpone the battle and wait for reinforcements from Orlais but Loghain forcefully states they don't need any help.  I know he doesn't like Orlais but if the combined might of the Royal Army, the Teyrnirs of Highever and Gwaren, along with several Banns isn't enough to stop the darkspawn then they are going to need help or all of Ferelden will be left at the Darkspwarn's mercy.  I don't think he's that blind at this point in the story so he must honestly think they have enough men to defeat the hoard.  If nothing else the heavy Orlasians could have been used as cannon fodder holding the line while the entire Ferlden army launched the flank attacks. 

 

3. The most important is the fact that he doesn't think this is a blight.  Darkspawn are animalistic creatures.  The shock of thousands of heavy infantry crashing into their flank while the royal army was still fighting in there front would likely have caused confusion and panic if this was just a very large band as he believes.  Without the presence of the Archdeamon in the mind crushing their will and driving them forward they are shown to panic when faced by dedicated defenses without a vast numerical superiority which, while Duncan says they look to now outnumber the army it doesn't seem to be by a large margin.  Most of the ground they took in the Deep Roads was during the first blight before they turned to the surface since then they have been in a slow war of attrition with Dwarfs which they could have won centuries ago if they had been determined to overwhelm there defenses, but they aren't.  The battle of Dennerim is my chief example in cannon but even outside that bands of darkspawn roaming the boarder and attacking towns between blights are considered a nuisance not a real threat by most people.

 

4. As for survivor accounts they needed to be taken with a grain of salt.  Any one from the Royal Army watched as their line crumpled and they were completely overrun by darkspawn.  They only survived by running away while their comrades fought on and died buying them time to get away.  I'd wager most suffer extreme guilt and some form of PTSD from running away while the rest of the army fought to the death as was honorable.  As for Loghain's soldiers while I believe they believe there was nothing they could do most had no idea what was happing.  They were hiding to the side of the battle so they could charge into the flank unnoticed and they needed the beacon to tell them when to charge because they could not see the battle and so could not tell when the time was right.  The fact that he calls for retreat the moment he see the call for help without even scouting the field tells me he had not intention to help.  Maybe he thought to long had gone by or maybe he planned it either way I'm sure he told the men he pulled them out of Grey Wardden trap and saved their lives when they began to question how the Royal Army had been wiped out when they hadn't even been committed to the battle and as a respected war hero they believed him. 

 

So yes, I do believe he quit the field and abandoned the king and his army to death.  I'm not saying charging would have won the battle, it may have done little more then get himself and all his men killed to take down some more darkspawn.  But even that would have meant that the Warden would have had an easier time gathering the remaining forces of Ferelden while the Hoard was delayed in gathering its strength since it would have lost thousands if not tens of thousands of more darkspawn in his charge since human soldiers are shown to be worth several genlocks or even hurlocks.

 

And just to make this longer I do have to say I don't think he poised Emon before the battle.  Duncan brings a message from the Arl when they arrive so he had recent contact add to the fact that a mage warden was recruited the same day as Jowan fled while Loghain was with the King in the south and he is said to put Issolde in contact with Jowan means that he simple couldn't have done it before hand.  Right afterwards as he was marching back to Dennerim?  Maybe, but not before.

 

Really he may have just been in over his head with to much placed on his shoulders.  Honestly the way we see him unravel as the story goes on I think this may have been what happened.  He has been praised as the hero of Ferelden for decades and now it's facing the greatest threat since the occupation and only he can save them from it, even Duncan says so, but he just isn't up to the task and the harder he tries the worse it gets.  Don't get me wrong, I spared him only once to see that content because I'm a completionist, besides that I always do the honors myself.



#224
TEWR

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Yes, because retreating worked out so well for Lothering and most other places of Ferelden. The evidence supports that the blight was left unchecked because of Loghain's treachery up until the Hero of Ferelden was able to unite the lands for the standoff against the archdemon. Loghain's actions scattered the armies and made the Warden's job monstrously more difficult.

 

No betrayal? So playing along giving everyone false hope only with the premeditated action of betrayal is not betrayal? He even poisoned Arl Eamon beforehand to make crowning himself have less resistance after Ostagar.

 

People who do evil things usually believe what they're doing is right/necessary in their own minds. Hitler thought so too.

 

HItler? Really? Jumping to that? Wow...

 

Look, Lothering is something Loghain has partial blame for, but let's not forget that Lothering wasn't his land to begin with and that the lord of Lothering took all of his soldiers with him.

 

So both of them are to blame for Lothering's lack of security.

 

But he was heading to Denerim for the Landsmeet, where all of the nobility were gathered, in the hopes that he could convince them to unite under his banner to stave off the Darkspawn invasion (which he admits must take precedence in said scene). His intention is to not appear weak in the eyes of Orlais after the death of their king and not to fall to petty infighting. He wants them to show that even without their king they can come together in a crisis. Of course, his attitude going in was horrific and Teagan's short-sighted altruism royally cocked things up further, thus inflaming the Bannorn. So it was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

But the Civil War happened as a result of the Banns launching the first blow and they controlled much of the geographic routes going south or areas with supplies so Loghain had to prioritize bringing the Bannorn in line. Hell, you hear firsthand how the Banns aren't even fighting Loghain in a united front. They're scattered, fighting him independently and getting crushed. In the rare instance a few banns did come together and managed to beat him, they were left without enough manpower to stave off the Darkspawn.

 

And you have to admit, a bunch of minor lords going up against the brains behind the rebellion is stupid enough, but doing so without any unified front is just asinine, more so when there's an invasion on their doorstep. And then trying to pin blame on the man who actually wanted to deal with such a threat is silly. Yeah he was an ass about it and his demands reminded them far too much of Orlesian oppression, but still...

 

The evidence doesn't support that the Blight was left unchecked because of Loghain's "treachery". It supports that a bunch of minor lords couldn't get their heads out of their asses long enough to think that, whatever their grievances with Loghain's retreat from Ostagar, he should have been to them the lesser of two evils.

 

(I don't see him as evil. I'm just using a phrase).

 

As for Ostagar, the plan was for the men and women under Cailan's (sadly inept) command to draw the Darkspawn to them. And what does Cailan decide to do? He decides to launch only one volley of arrows, waste the Mabari troops at his disposal rendering them little more then fodder, and then have his men charge straight into the open exposing their left and right flanks when the walls of Ostagar were protecting them in the first place. All of this happens as the Darkspawn are already coming to them.

 

So it's more that Cailan's blunders, coupled with a host of other blunders on the part of the Chantry, the Wardens, a bit of Loghain, and Bioware themselves (since they know jackshit about warfare) led to Ostagar being a rank mess that necessitated a retreat.


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#225
TEWR

TEWR
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There is a comparison between Hitler and Loghain no matter how many times you state there isn't.

 

Arl Eamon was poisoned beforehand. When you talk to one of Eamon's knights in Lothering he states such. It's why Isolde and Jowan trusted Loghain at the time.

 

No, that knight says that Eamon fell ill before the king died. Illness is not solely the result of poison, and beyond that if you look at the logistics there's no way in hell Loghain could've poisoned Eamon before Ostagar.

 

He was at Ostagar the entire time and was responsible for the victories they'd had thus far. Talk to Duncan in the Magi origin and the HN origin and you find there have been some battles thus far. When you get to Ostagar, you discover that the battles thus far have been won thanks to Loghain. So how is it that Jowan could have been captured by Templars, escorted to Denerim by Loghain's men, and met with Loghain in Denerim when Loghain was at Ostagar the entire time... and when we arrive Loghain has somehow still been there the whole time?

 

It's more likely in my mind that after Ostagar Loghain met with Jowan and told him to poison Eamon because Eamon would rile the nobility to fight a civil war against Loghain and attempt to put Alistair on the throne (which he does just that) and would also be too clouded by his familial relation to Cailan to see things clearly.

 

I'm not saying Loghain didn't order Jowan to poison Eamon. Only that the logistics for the "before Ostagar" argument don't work out.


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