1530 réponses à ce sujet

[PhoenixAeon]

In such a purely pragmatic world state, you would almost be required to let Loghain live.  Viewed purely in terms of the immediate conflict with the darkspawn, he is simply and unambiguously a superior resource in every way to Alistair.  It's not even rationally debatable.  You would also have to side with Branka and get those golems into production, and it would make the most sense to pick the werewolves in Nature of the Beast, because they would make more valuable troops than elves or elves and humans who used to be werewolves.  Judging on a lot of people's descriptions of the world state most consistent with their primary playthroughs, I think the norm in the community is a fair amount of metagaming, in the sense that people play characters in a way that assumes victory is guaranteed, and that there is no need to make any "moral" sacrifices along the way.

 

Let me ask you this.  If you had allowed Loghain become a Grey Warden, and you lost Alistair as a consequence. There is no trust here, you risk having your throat cut while at camp with Loghain. He was capable of doing just about anything to achieve his goals. If he did manage to kill The Warden do you think anyone who kill Loghain?  No, because Riordan and Loghain would of been the only two wardens left.

 

If you asked me that would of been a more logical progression: The Warden makes Loghain a Grey Warden and Loghain in the middle of the night has The Warden killed so he could take over.

 

Anyone taking the situation as if it  was a real circumstance would not risk this. You say he is better than Alistair, that is your opinion, not fact.  To me Loghain has already severely harmed Fereldan's chances of surviving and defeating the blight. All actions Loghain has done was divide and create a civil war with his decisions. At least I know I can completely trust Alistair.  At the end of the day, we defeated the Archdemon without Loghain's help at all. There was nothing in his recent actions against The Warden or his behavior that would have allowed me to make Loghain a Grey Warden.

[Caz Neerg]

Let me ask you this.  If you had allowed Loghain become a Grey Warden, and you lost Alistair as a consequence. There is no trust here, you risk having your throat cut while at camp with Loghain. He was capable of doing just about anything to achieve his goals. If he did manage to kill The Warden do you think anyone who kill Loghain?  No, because Riordan and Loghain would of been the only two wardens left.

 

If you asked me that would of been a more logical progression: The Warden makes Loghain a Grey Warden and Loghain in the middle of the night has The Warden killed so he could take over.

 

Anyone taking the situation as if it  was a real circumstance would not risk this. You say he is better than Alistair, that is your opinion, not fact.  To me Loghain has already severely harmed Fereldan's chances of surviving and defeating the blight. All actions Loghain has done was divide and create a civil war with his decisions. At least I know I can completely trust Alistair.  At the end of the day, we defeated the Archdemon without Loghain's help at all. There was nothing in his recent actions against The Warden or his behavior that would have allowed me to make Loghain a Grey Warden.

 

This honestly makes me think you didn't pay a lot of attention to Loghain's story.  Did you ever have a playthrough where you made him a warden then actually talked to him?  He wasn't a psycho, and there is no reason for him to slit the Warden's throat after he has become a Grey Warden.  It would serve no purpose, and everything Loghain did was perfectly rational given his fundamental assumptions.  Some of those assumptions turned out to be incorrect, but his motive was always to do what he believed was best for Ferelden.  He was an amoral patriot who honestly thought Orlais was a greater long term threat than the darkspawn, not a mustache twirler out for personal gain no matter the cost.

 

As for him being better than Alistair, I'm not saying he is a better person.  Which is the better person is irrelevant.  I'm saying he is the more valuable resource, which is clear.  He is an accomplished general with decades of experience and arguably possesses the greatest dedication to the survival of Ferelden of any character in the entire game.  Alistair, on the other hand, is one soldier, and not a particularly experienced one.  Add to that, he is so wrapped up in himself that he can't even put his personal feelings about Loghain aside to fight the Blight if Loghain is made a Grey Warden.  Which sounds more valuable in war for the survival of Ferelden, a battle-hardened veteran with unswerving dedication to his country and decades of command experience, or a wet behind the ears man-child who will throw a tantrum and refuse to participate if he doesn't get his way?

 

(I know I said it doesn't matter which is the better person, but I'm afraid I can't go more than a sentence or two talking about Alistair without the contempt leaking through.  He is a barely adequate man, a less than adequate Grey Warden, and an atrocious candidate to be in charge of anything, let alone an entire kingdom.  He makes Harrowmont look qualified.)

[MisanthropePrime]

Let's assume I played a Viddathari sleeper agent for the Qunari in both DA games (in DA:O he'd be a city elf, in DAII hawke would have just been a warrior)

 

 

What choices regarding the companions would you make? I'd have him recruit dog and Sten, but refuse to find Sten's sword. I'd defile the urn of sacred ashes and thus kill both Leliana and Wynne. I'd refuse Morrigan's baby. I'd not recruit Oghren, as he is a disgrace. I'd make sure Alistair stays a Warden (as that would effectively be "his role") and thus would execute Loghain. I would not recuit Shale, as he would be suspicious of all magic artifacts (I am willing to budge on this, considering the Qunari do make wide use of magic artifacts even if they distrust mages, such as the qamek). I would not recruit Nathaniel into the wardens and thus leave him to die.

 

For DAII I'm having some trouble here. I'd probably have Bethany die during the last quest. I'd be a dick to Varric, simply because all my other characters are friendly with him. I'd definitely kill Merril and Anders. I would not help Aveline get with Donnic as the Qun does not afford for romance, but I would keep Aveline with me as she conforms well to her duty as a guard. I'd hand Isabela over to the Arishok, definitely. What I'm torn on are Sebastian and Fenris, I really don't know what I'd do with them. He'd be pretty intolerant of the Andrastians, so do you think he'd just let Sebastian go, or would he recognize the value in an ally with differing beliefs? And Fenris, I've got no clue. The initial recruitment quest, AFAIK, requires you to be interested in smuggling, so I'm not sure if the Viddathari would even dain to do it, but assuming he did, I dunno what to do with Fenris. He's knowlegable of the Qun, but does not follow it completely- would that make my Viddathari more or less fond of him? What about Danarius, is there any interpretation of the Qun that would logically follow him being sold back to Danarius? Or because Tevinter is the most hated enemy of the Qun, would Danarius be killed on sight?

[Fearsome1]

 ....... would Danarius be killed on sight?

 I can't see the Qunari accommodating a known mage not bound by the Qun, and Fenris literally speaks their language (garnered some respect from the Arishok too). Recruit the warrior elf, hell romance him [either gender].

[The Bear Muse]

He'd be pretty intolerant of the Andrastians, so do you think he'd just let Sebastian go, or would he recognize the value in an ally with differing beliefs? And Fenris, I've got no clue. The initial recruitment quest, AFAIK, requires you to be interested in smuggling, so I'm not sure if the Viddathari would even dain to do it, but assuming he did, I dunno what to do with Fenris. He's knowlegable of the Qun, but does not follow it completely- would that make my Viddathari more or less fond of him? What about Danarius, is there any interpretation of the Qun that would logically follow him being sold back to Danarius? Or because Tevinter is the most hated enemy of the Qun, would Danarius be killed on sight?

 

Fenris is easy; he has an understanding of the qun and the qunari people - plus he's against mages. I would think the qunari would approve of him, much as the Arishok did. He doesn't follow the qun, but I bet they'd try to convert him.

 

Sebastian's more complicated. He certainly has a level of respect for the qunari, as evidenced by conversations in MotA about/with Tallis. The qunari don't start out hostile, as we saw in the first couple of acts of DA2. I think the largest issue would be Sebastian's (successful) attempts to renew Fenris's faith in the Maker.

[MisanthropePrime]

 I can't see the Qunari accommodating a known mage not bound by the Qun, and Fenris literally speaks their language (garnered some respect from the Arishok too). Recruit the warrior elf, hell romance him [either gender].

The Qun does not afford for romance- that's why I don't set Aveline up with Donnic. Sex in the Qun is only to be used to breed better Qunari to fulfill their purpose, remember? It's not the Viddathari's place to determine who should have sex with whom, that's up for the Tamassrans.

[Karocene]

I really only have one world state; as much as I love the DA games, I can't bring myself to make certain choices, so many of my playthroughs blend together, and only have a few differences (namely, gender/race/class changes).

 

I have my primary one that I'll finish building soon. For some reason, the Keep's not letting me import my Wardens but did import my Hawkes (I have no idea if this is a bug or not, since I've synced my DA:O game manually multiple times across many days. My game's on Steam, not Origin- if there's a fix for this, let me know), so I built based off of the male human noble warrior default, as my Warden was the same.

 

I think I'll have a second playthrough that's more black and white in terms of morality; my original world state is kind of all over the place, but generally leans towards the "good" morality (brokering peace, helping others, keeping the right things intact, etc.; favors helping the mages over the templars, but supports the chantry in certain events). By that, I mean I might have a save where one group is preferred (ex: elves vs werewolves- no peace, just picking a side), seeing people and things for their worth as opposed to their feelings or their previous actions (ex: sparing Loghain; defiling the Urn for greater power), and so on. I'll probably make a side Warden and Hawke for appearances. Not sure yet, as I want to play with my "canon" version first.

[Caz Neerg]

I really only have one world state; as much as I love the DA games, I can't bring myself to make certain choices, so many of my playthroughs blend together, and only have a few differences (namely, gender/race/class changes).

 

That's one of the best things about the keep; you can have actions taken by theoretical Wardens and Hawkes that "your" characters would never have pursued, but which might still result in an interesting world state for your characters to play in. A world state where everything went as badly as it could possibly go is a great place for a "rise from the ashes" good guy playthrough, and a world state where everything is as rosy as it's possible for it to be could give the more vicious player characters a wider range of people and places to destroy.

[Karocene]

That's one of the best things about the keep; you can have actions taken by theoretical Wardens and Hawkes that "your" characters would never have pursued, but which might still result in an interesting world state for your characters to play in. A world state where everything went as badly as it could possibly go is a great place for a "rise from the ashes" good guy playthrough, and a world state where everything is as rosy as it's possible for it to be could give the more vicious player characters a wider range of people and places to destroy.

Very true. I'm going to make full usage of the Keep because it allows for things like that.

[Rox Omega]

Are Origin Heroes still not loading?

[Kilek Darkfire]

Are Origin Heroes still not loading?

Nope. Hopefully it'll be fixed with the upcoming update.

[BFace]

My world state for my first playthrough is gonna be interesting.  See, I consider my first play through of a game to be my "canon" (bad choices, missed opportunities, all of it. *grin*), because I *like* the idea of a world where the heroes have done what they thought was the right thing whether it turned out to be, or not.

 

Like Sten did not get his sword back (because I was a dork and didn't figure out that I should talk to ALL my companions, not just the ones I carried around with me.

 

And I had to kill Fenris because I didn't understand how rivalry worked and he wouldn't stop trying to fight me while I was trying to kill all the templars.

 

It's one of the things I love about the series-the consequences are real, and sometimes not at all what you wanted.

[MacyNell]

My world state for my first playthrough is gonna be interesting.  See, I consider my first play through of a game to be my "canon" (bad choices, missed opportunities, all of it. *grin*), because I *like* the idea of a world where the heroes have done what they thought was the right thing whether it turned out to be, or not.

 

Like Sten did not get his sword back (because I was a dork and didn't figure out that I should talk to ALL my companions, not just the ones I carried around with me.

 

And I had to kill Fenris because I didn't understand how rivalry worked and he wouldn't stop trying to fight me while I was trying to kill all the templars.

 

It's one of the things I love about the series-the consequences are real, and sometimes not at all what you wanted.

I missed people entirely on my first play-throughs.  Leliana in Origins and Isabella in DA2.  You would have thought I would have learned my lesson by DA2 (go EVERYWHERE, talk to EVERYONE, Macy) but nOOooooOOO.  I'm such a doofus.    I do believe my "canon" playthroughs (and the ones I use for my main world state) were my second ones, on both games. The big stuff is essentially the same, except the second time I recruited everyone.

[Caz Neerg]

As far as "canon" playthroughs go, for me it's usually the third or fourth one.  My first playthrough always consists of which options I think will lead to the most entertaining consequences, and I have a fairly dark sense of humor.  Unless that run gets *really* dark (as it did in Origins, but not in DA2) I go second for a maximum carnage scenario, then third I go with a "good guy,"   with my canon playthrough being last and with a focus on pragmatism rather than entertainment or morality.  (For example, in the entertainment run Alistair is executed, but in the pragmatic run he is just a drunk, because it's pointless to kill someone if there is any chance at all he will be useful in the future, and no real chance he will be a threat.

[Verly]

What I consider my canon (Casteless female dwarf, duel weild rogue) was for sure not my first character. I had the game on PS3 and played it numerous times before I switched over to PC and never looked back.  I wanted to play each origin (including and elf mage and a human mage) before I decided to make my canon.  I played Vivian hawke twice to find the right voice for her (and I don't mean nice/snarky/jerky).   I seem to want to know all about a game before I make my "real" version of each origin.   another game example I didn't play ME3 with my canon femshep until I played it with some of my other ones.  I just don't want to feel like i'm stumbling around with my canon playthroughs. 

[LiketheRiver]

I really only have one world state; as much as I love the DA games, I can't bring myself to make certain choices, so many of my playthroughs blend together, and only have a few differences (namely, gender/race/class changes).

 

 

I usually only have my one play through I do(all good/paragon/hero) and I find it hard to do the opposite(bad/renegade/cocky) the entire play through but that is one thing I've loved about the Keep is that I can simulate what other play throughs might have been with some off the wall choices or not my usual choices.

[The Bear Muse]

First of all, you need to take down that screenshot because we're not supposed to put them up! 

 

I've actually seen that error before. I got it when I bugged out my DA2 tiles. It wasn't on a delay like that, though. Sounds like you've found a new bug! Congratulations!  Be sure to write down anything and everything that you've done with Warden/Hawke uploads/management and the Keep itself prior to noticing this happening. You never know what might be the cause!

[FrozenSolid]

I made it to the end of DA:O this weekend, and started on Awakening. I finished the marshes and am about to enter the mines after meeting Velanna.

 

My new warden is an awesome Casteless lady dwarf. She's pretty power and money hungry, willing to take any deal if she thinks she'll get something good out of it, and quick to fight to prove her worth. She also hates people who betray her, and doesn't hesitate to get kill people she feels has wronged her. 

 

I got an awesome screenshot of her today

 

 

It's been a really fun change from my canon save, an elf mage that hated the cantry, templars, blood magic, and demons and was way too forgiving and willing to negotiate peaceful ends to problems (unless it was with a demon).

[TeganJ]

My default DA:O world state pretty much sticks to the "good" or most helpful choices - everyone lives when possible, not dealing with demons, peace between the elves and werewolves, saving the mages, etc.  I do usually put Bhelen on the throne, though - he may be personally awful but I'd rather have the dwarves in my Thedas be more progressive rather than insular. 

 

For my Warden I tend to default to noble warrior that becomes queen with Alistair.  I tend to replay that origin more often than not, although I am trying to finish the other origin stories and do the other romances and endings.  I find it hard to make evil choices in games (still have not been able to make myself play a dark side Revan in KOTOR), so I like that I can set up a world state in the Keep based on choices I haven't/won't make and can see how they affect the story.

 

In DAII it took a couple playthroughs to settle on my default - humorous mage Hawke that romances Fenris, supports the mages, all companions live, Carver becomes a Templar, Feynriel freed, and Merrill's clan lives as some of the standard choices.  My first playthrough I went with a warrior Hawke since I liked playing as one in DA:O but found Bethany really annoying and tend to stick to a mage Hawke because I like Carver a lot better (plus I like the rivalmance with Fenris as well).

[Shadow Recon117]

I try to be generally a good person in my default playthrough. Then I run into elves and the purge begins, especially in DA2 when they look like Roswell aliens.

[CissyGraves89]

Let me ask you this.  If you had allowed Loghain become a Grey Warden, and you lost Alistair as a consequence. There is no trust here, you risk having your throat cut while at camp with Loghain. He was capable of doing just about anything to achieve his goals. If he did manage to kill The Warden do you think anyone who kill Loghain?  No, because Riordan and Loghain would of been the only two wardens left.

 

If you asked me that would of been a more logical progression: The Warden makes Loghain a Grey Warden and Loghain in the middle of the night has The Warden killed so he could take over.

 

Anyone taking the situation as if it  was a real circumstance would not risk this. You say he is better than Alistair, that is your opinion, not fact.  To me Loghain has already severely harmed Fereldan's chances of surviving and defeating the blight. All actions Loghain has done was divide and create a civil war with his decisions. At least I know I can completely trust Alistair.  At the end of the day, we defeated the Archdemon without Loghain's help at all. There was nothing in his recent actions against The Warden or his behavior that would have allowed me to make Loghain a Grey Warden.

 

 

This honestly makes me think you didn't pay a lot of attention to Loghain's story.  Did you ever have a playthrough where you made him a warden then actually talked to him?  He wasn't a psycho, and there is no reason for him to slit the Warden's throat after he has become a Grey Warden.  It would serve no purpose, and everything Loghain did was perfectly rational given his fundamental assumptions.  Some of those assumptions turned out to be incorrect, but his motive was always to do what he believed was best for Ferelden.  He was an amoral patriot who honestly thought Orlais was a greater long term threat than the darkspawn, not a mustache twirler out for personal gain no matter the cost.

 

As for him being better than Alistair, I'm not saying he is a better person.  Which is the better person is irrelevant.  I'm saying he is the more valuable resource, which is clear.  He is an accomplished general with decades of experience and arguably possesses the greatest dedication to the survival of Ferelden of any character in the entire game.  Alistair, on the other hand, is one soldier, and not a particularly experienced one.  Add to that, he is so wrapped up in himself that he can't even put his personal feelings about Loghain aside to fight the Blight if Loghain is made a Grey Warden.  Which sounds more valuable in war for the survival of Ferelden, a battle-hardened veteran with unswerving dedication to his country and decades of command experience, or a wet behind the ears man-child who will throw a tantrum and refuse to participate if he doesn't get his way?

 

(I know I said it doesn't matter which is the better person, but I'm afraid I can't go more than a sentence or two talking about Alistair without the contempt leaking through.  He is a barely adequate man, a less than adequate Grey Warden, and an atrocious candidate to be in charge of anything, let alone an entire kingdom.  He makes Harrowmont look qualified.)

Alright guys, let's take a breather here. Remember, everyone is here out of love for the game. Saying another player's point "It's not even rationally debatable," robs fellow players of being able to state their own opinions in what should be a safe place of fellow lovers of the games.

While Loghain isn't as inarguably evil as Alistair makes him out to be (if you are unsure about this, read The Stolen Throne and The Calling) he is still meant to be one of the antagonists of the game. As Caz Neerg pointed out, his sole goal is the defense and freedom of Ferelden. But this ideal has made him blind to the brutality of his methods, even going as far as to murder his best friend's son, the King, because he thought it would save his beloved country. Despite his intentions, he comes across as completely untrustworty to most players.

Just remember that Dragon Age (and Bioware games in general) are meant to blur the lines of right and wrong and allow players the freedom to see their own truths in the writing. Let's keep things fun and friendly and not tell other lovers of this amazing franchise that how they play and see the world/characters is "wrong." Come on, I mean, who does that!?

[Tenz83]

There's no real wrong just the way one interprets the choices.

[Caz Neerg]

Alright guys, let's take a breather here. Remember, everyone is here out of love for the game. Saying another player's point "It's not even rationally debatable," robs fellow players of being able to state their own opinions in what should be a safe place of fellow lovers of the games.

While Loghain isn't as inarguably evil as Alistair makes him out to be (if you are unsure about this, read The Stolen Throne and The Calling) he is still meant to be one of the antagonists of the game. As Caz Neerg pointed out, his sole goal is the defense and freedom of Ferelden. But this ideal has made him blind to the brutality of his methods, even going as far as to murder his best friend's son, the King, because he thought it would save his beloved country. Despite his intentions, he comes across as completely untrustworty to most players.

Just remember that Dragon Age (and Bioware games in general) are meant to blur the lines of right and wrong and allow players the freedom to see their own truths in the writing. Let's keep things fun and friendly and not tell other lovers of this amazing franchise that how they play and see the world/characters is "wrong." Come on, I mean, who does that!?

 

Who said anything about wrong?  I only described Loghain as more useful, from a pragmatic standpoint.  Bringing morality into it makes things a lot more complicated, since every player will have an individual concept of it.

 

If you are specifically trying to construct a world state where the Warden engaged in a cold-blooded analysis of qualifications, rather than an evaluation of moral worthiness, I find it hard to believe that anyone would seriously reach the conclusion that Alistair is the more accomplished and impressive military resource as compared to Loghain.  I have yet to see a single argument against Loghain that isn't based either on the idea that he "deserves" to die for his actions, even if he is a valuable resource, or on attempts to misrepresent his character in order to make it reasonable for the Warden to believe he isn't a valuable resource.

 

And not to nitpick, but Loghain didn't murder the King.  The darkspawn did that.  And the sequencing of events at Ostagar heavily implies that (given how long it took the Warden and Alistair to light the signal) Duncan and the King would have died before any reinforcements could have reached them anyway.  Which isn't to say that I think Loghain ever intended to provide assistance, I think it's clear that he didn't, but he did explicitly try to get the King *not* to go with the Wardens, which is hardly consistent with the idea that he was actively trying to cause his death.

[Mythologiced]

Nope. Hopefully it'll be fixed with the upcoming update.

 

Oh thank god. I was afraid this was an error on my part. Good to know it's not. Yet.

[LiketheRiver]

Will the world states we've created during this Beta transfer over to when The Keep is officially released or will it be wiped clean and we will start new once The Keep is open to everyone?