123 réponses à ce sujet

[Treacherous J Slither]

An OP character isn't fun, trying new builds only to find out they are OP making the game not fun is frustrating, never frustrate your player base unless it's why your game sells.

 

I assume you're speaking for yourself here because steamrolling can be fun too. For me anyway.

 

If I read the description of an ability and realize that I could obliterate everything by putting it together with such and such, I wouldn't do it unless I wanted to obliterate everything. 

 

If the player is unsatisfied with his skill setup he can always respec. I personally spent a lot of time in DA2 just screwing around with character builds because of the Makers Sigh respec option. Some were more effective than others and because redoing my setup was so easy to do, it was very fun and not frustrating in the least. Now if I had to go through hell and high water in order to respec i'm sure that no enjoyment would've been had in doing it. It would have been a chore instead.

 

More options for the player is always a good thing in my eyes.

[Sylvius the Mad]

So looking at the footage from E3, it looks like mages are back to going pew pew while getting their heads smashed in with a mace. I think that's a big step back from DAII where mages used staff melee enhanced by magic for direct combat. Am I correct in assuming it's gone or have I missed something? 

In DAO mages could wield any type of weapon.  I usually had a weapon equipped in the secondary slot for my mages in case they ran into something that was immune to their staff damage.

 

DA2 was hardly a step forward in this regard.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Then you are looking for a different kind of system that is build different from the ground. You can't make a system that works for both multiclass as well as selected classes

The older TES games did it quite well.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Kingdom of amalur did that and as said single classes were massively inferior despite hybrids and jack of all trades never unlocking the the top tier abilities.

 

 

And if this is what the player wishes to do why should they be denied the option?

[Dermain]

And if this is what the player wishes to do why should they be denied the option?

 

It destroys the game then.

 

Comparison:

 

If a rat is offered *insert highly addictive drug* (HAD) or food it will choose the HAD. Even if it is starving/about to die.

 

If you  offer a player the chance to be ridiculously overpowered, the player will choose to be ridiculously overpowered. There will be a minority that does not choose that route, and will likely disagree with that statement.

[Treacherous J Slither]

It destroys the game then.

 

Comparison:

 

If a rat is offered *insert highly addictive drug* (HAD) or food it will choose the HAD. Even if it is starving/about to die.

 

If you  offer a player the chance to be ridiculously overpowered, the player will choose to be ridiculously overpowered. There will be a minority that does not choose that route, and will likely disagree with that statement.

 

I disagree.

 

In DAO the mage was the most powerful class in the game and yet the other 2 classes remained popular with the players.

 

In Dragon's Dogma the Assassin was the most powerful class in the game and yet every class was popular with the players.

 

In DnD the caster classes are potentially the most powerful and yet many non caster classes remain popular.

 

I imagine this has to do with the fact that the people who create these characters are ROLE PLAYING.

[Adhin]

Not sure I'd say most 'powerful'. I mean you could make them the most tanky, or the best at dealing with 'massive' groups. But they couldn't handle aggro worth a damn, and ultimately my Warrior Zerk/Reaver tore through the game waaaay faster then any mage I made. DW Warrior can get stupid unstoppable. Can also make a pretty stealth cheesy rogue with stealthing mid combat. Did that to Zevran actually, had AI routines to have em stealth on multiple occasions  depending on all manner of **** and he'd survive through all manner of stuff while doing a ton of dmg.

 

-edit-

Now, if the system was 100% open then... yeah. I could have a super tank mage who could hold perfect aggro while still doing AoE dmg and all that crazyness. Kinda the trade off with the tank mage, wont die but wont hold mobs attention either.

[andy6915]

I disagree.

 

In DAO the mage was the most powerful class in the game and yet the other 2 classes remained popular with the players.

 

In Dragon's Dogma the Assassin was the most powerful class in the game and yet every class was popular with the players.

 

In DnD the caster classes are potentially the most powerful and yet many non caster classes remain popular.

 

I imagine this has to do with the fact that the people who create these characters are ROLE PLAYING.

 

I disagree with most of that.

 

My best Wardens are always rogues. A well kitted out arcane warrior couldn't match my rogues by end-game, especially with their terrible melee damage and insane fatigue and mana costs greatly limiting their casting. And if not an arcane warrior, the comparison is even more in favor of rogues due to mages that aren't arcane warriors being rather weak in comparison. Not to mention most of the best offensive magic is more dangerous to your own party than it is to the enemy thanks to friendly fire... Assuming you play on harder difficulties anyway.

 

Mystic knights are the most powerful class in DD, not assassins. Assassins only had really overpowered augments, but the class wasn't anything special. Just a glass cannon with high damage and weak durability, with masterful kill as the only truly awesome attack they have thanks to it blocking just about every physical attack in the game. But mystic knights are the most durable class in the game on top of having the highest damage per second out of any other class. A mystic knight can kill the devilfire grove drake in less than a minute by level 30... Good luck getting an assassin to pull that off. Also physical damage gets greatly eclipsed by magic and elemental damage as the game goes on. This paragraph isn't my opinion, it's fact. Mystic knights are the most overpowered class, period. And this is coming from me, someone who actually prefers assassin Arisen's and has done more playthroughs as that class than as mystic knights. But I don't delude myself about which is clearly superior.

 

So you're wrong from my perspective in the first statement about DAO, and absolutely unquestionably wrong on the second one about DD.

[VilhoDog13]

Eh, I just prefer talent trees.

Weapons are separate and abilities are specific. Done.

Wasn't this thread about mages meleeing with their staff? Lol.

[Zatche]

I disagree.

 

In DAO the mage was the most powerful class in the game and yet the other 2 classes remained popular with the players.

 

In Dragon's Dogma the Assassin was the most powerful class in the game and yet every class was popular with the players.

 

In DnD the caster classes are potentially the most powerful and yet many non caster classes remain popular.

 

I imagine this has to do with the fact that the people who create these characters are ROLE PLAYING.

 

But, that's the thing though. What if I prefer balance and a challenge, I want to roleplay a certain class, and that certain class is overpowered?

[Treacherous J Slither]

I disagree with most of that.

 

My best Wardens are always rogues. A well kitted out arcane warrior couldn't match my rogues by end-game, especially with their terrible melee damage and insane fatigue and mana costs greatly limiting their casting. And if not an arcane warrior, the comparison is even more in favor of rogues due to mages that aren't arcane warriors being rather weak in comparison. Not to mention most of the best offensive magic is more dangerous to your own party than it is to the enemy thanks to friendly fire... Assuming you play on harder difficulties anyway.

 

Mystic knights are the most powerful class in DD, not assassins. Assassins only had really overpowered augments, but the class wasn't anything special. Just a glass cannon with high damage and weak durability, with masterful kill as the only truly awesome attack they have thanks to it blocking just about every physical attack in the game. But mystic knights are the most durable class in the game on top of having the highest damage per second out of any other class. A mystic knight can kill the devilfire grove drake in less than a minute by level 30... Good luck getting an assassin to pull that off. Also physical damage gets greatly eclipsed by magic and elemental damage as the game goes on. This paragraph isn't my opinion, it's fact. Mystic knights are the most overpowered class, period. And this is coming from me, someone who actually prefers assassin Arisen's and has done more playthroughs as that class than as mystic knights. But I don't delude myself about which is clearly superior.

 

So you're wrong from my perspective in the first statement about DAO, and absolutely unquestionably wrong on the second one about DD.

 

Do you pick the rogue because you feel it's the most powerful or because you prefer the rogue playstyle?

 

There are many who can argue against you on the whole Assassin vs Mystic Knight thing. When it comes to survivability and versatility while still being able to dish out high damage the Assassin rules IMO. The class has an invincibility skill ffs.

[Treacherous J Slither]

But, that's the thing though. What if I prefer balance and a challenge, I want to roleplay a certain class, and that certain class is overpowered?

 

You could increase the difficulty level or gimp yourself with weak gear.

 

Now if the developer allows you to cherry pick what skills you want then you can potentially create a non overpowered character of that particular class. Great right?

[andy6915]

Do you pick the rogue because you feel it's the most powerful or because you prefer the rogue playstyle?

 

There are many who can argue against you on the whole Assassin vs Mystic Knight thing. When it comes to survivability and versatility while still being able to dish out high damage the Assassin rules IMO. The class has an invincibility skill ffs.

Both? Rogues have the highest damage per second, their passive dodging talents and high dexterity make them extremely hard to hit (I usually hit a 70% to 80% dodge rate), their stealth abilities are so overpowered that having health regen lets you be pretty much unkillable because you can just stealth right in the middle of a fight and just sit there until your health is full again. They are just plain more powerful than mages.

 

Assassin does have invincibility thanks to invisibility and masterful kill's broken overpoweredness (you're talking to the one who discovered that fact and got it out there to the fanbase). But mystic knights do to with good timing at perfect blocking, and their perfect blocks do a hell of a lot more damage than masterful kill does even if it looks less impressive. The only place an assassin beats a mystic knight is those damn metal golems, which as you know are pretty much invincible to magic.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@Andy:

 

The rogue requires far more skill to be played effectively than the mage. DPS is great but the mage also has crowd control, group healing, freaking resurrection, mana clash etc. Fireball-Blood Wound-Inferno/fight. 3 spells and the mage moves on. It's not that easy for the rogue. He needs far more micro management.

 

The Assassin can wipe out mobs from deep with Lyncean sight. Can fight up close or at a distance with daggers and arrows. Can counter any physical attack. Can cast Haste ffs. Can become invincible. Can equip a variety of weapons. Even shields for that perfect blockage. The Assassin can absolutely destroy every enemy in the game including those Metal Golems that give the red classes so much trouble. Myself and many others feel that it's the most powerful because of it's overall effectiveness and the sheer amount of options available to it.

 

Regardless of what beats what, people choose the classes that suit them. Giving the player the option of selecting their own abilities will not ruin a game. More options is always a good thing.

[andy6915]

@Andy:

 

The rogue requires far more skill to be played effectively than the mage. DPS is great but the mage also has crowd control, group healing, freaking resurrection, mana clash etc. Fireball-Blood Wound-Inferno/fight. 3 spells and the mage moves on. It's not that easy for the rogue. He needs far more micro management.

 

The Assassin can wipe out mobs from deep with Lyncean sight. Can fight up close or at a distance with daggers and arrows. Can counter any physical attack. Can cast Haste ffs. Can become invincible. Can equip a variety of weapons. Even shields for that perfect blockage. The Assassin can absolutely destroy every enemy in the game including those Metal Golems that give the red classes so much trouble. Myself and many others feel that it's the most powerful because of it's overall effectiveness and the sheer amount of options available to it.

 

Regardless of what beats what, people choose the classes that suit them. Giving the player the option of selecting their own abilities will not ruin a game. More options is always a good thing.

A mysic knight can wipe out mobs faster than assassin, can fight up close and at a distance, can also counter any physical attack that masterful kill can, can equip a variety of weapons, can set up traps and sigils that totally block and decimate enemies. Mystic knight is better, and you're clearly an assassin fanboy unlike me where I admit assassin isn't the best even if I prefer it.

 

And rogues take more skill? No they don't. How hard is "stealth every 20 second>solo the entire game" difficult? How is "hit enemy anywhere but the front to do massive damage" difficult? Mages take more skill, having to constantly keep an eye on their mana and ration it properly and making sure your strong spells don't literally kill your own party from one misaimed spell or their stupid AI walking right into it as you fire it. Rogue is simple, stealth often and just auto attack everything in sight and it will all work out even if you're the only one left standing. 3 spells to win a fight? Now I know you play on easier difficulties.

[Mornmagor]

But, that's the thing though. What if I prefer balance and a challenge, I want to roleplay a certain class, and that certain class is overpowered?

 

The developers don't start designing a class with the knowledge it's gonna be overpowered. When it gets something in power, it lacks something else.

 

Some times, in RPGs, some builds are more powerful than others. It's inevitable. We deal with it, in single player RPGs. In multiplayer, they get fixed.

[Zatche]

You could increase the difficulty level or gimp yourself with weak gear.

 

Now if the developer allows you to cherry pick what skills you want then you can potentially create a non overpowered character of that particular class. Great right?

 

I do increase the difficulty.

 

And for me, choosing the best skills to complement my playstyle (whatever it may be on this particular playthrough - I like to choose a new type of character on second and third playthroughs) and finding new and better gear is also fun, and I'd like that to be part of the challenge. Gimping myself to find the right difficulty is a chore that takes away from that.

[Zatche]

The developers don't start designing a class with the knowledge it's gonna be overpowered. When it gets something in power, it lacks something else.

 

Some times, in RPGs, some builds are more powerful than others. It's inevitable. We deal with it, in single player RPGs. In multiplayer, they get fixed.

 

Well yeah, concepts/design comes first, balancing comes later.

 

I understand that not every build is not going to have the exact same amount of power behind it. That's not feasible. But even if it's only single player, I'd prefer the game to at least approach a reasonable balance. And if a class or specialization is too overpowered, I'd hope the devs try and fix it. Isn't that what happened to DAO's mages through patching?

[andy6915]

For fun, here's a video of a very skilled mystic knight player. You need to see a MK at full power in the hands of a skilled player to truly get why they are the best vocation once mastered. What I mean by mastered is perfect block cancelling and being good at it.

 

 

Charge an elemental riposte and later perfect block at the right moment, and the MK annihilates the field via its core skill, Reflect, by incorporating all friendly and unfriendly damage within range into the perfect block's backlash. This is capable of generating millions of points of damage depending on what's out there on the field. The Assassin's vocational arsenal has no comparable move.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@Andy: 

 

I'm a Strider fanboy actually. My brother prefers the Mystic Knight. We've both stated our reasons as to what we believe and why and it's pointless to continue because neither of us will be swayed i'm sure.

 

I've only played DAO on the normal default difficulty. My mages nuke with abandon. Why would I want to deal with the hassle of friendly fire? When I go rogue I go archer rogue because I haven't gotten the hang of the stabby rogue yet. I'm sure he's monstrous late game but getting there is the hard part because he keeps getting killed and I eventually just give up and grab the bow. I like to keep my party alive and my mage does just that. Incapacitate the enemy, nuke, heal if needed, repeat. I can also use the mages AOE spell targeting glyph to scout areas and clear whole rooms without stepping foot in them. One shotting some unsuspecting mage with Mana Clash is almost as satisfying as roasting baddies in a locked room with Inferno. The rogue has high dps but it can't match the mages versatility IMO. But hey, to each his own.

 

In DA2 I mostly go stabby rogue because it's fun and I seem to be pretty good at it. On default difficulty anyway. Too bad you can't cherry pick skills cuz making a Sith Hawke would be darn cool.

 

Less restrictions BW. It will only enhance the the game.

[Shadow Storm]

DA 2 Mage animations were badass. The only over-the-top thing was the Blood Mage skill which makes Hawke stab himself with his staff. I always felt a little bit uncomfortable watching that, it looked very painful.

 

I really don't get the logic behind blood magic Mages. They use it to escape torture or persecution from Templars and then become hooked on it. How is inflicting such pain upon yourself any different from the Circle? At least in the Circle if you are good you are not going to get stabbed every 2 seconds. On the other hand fade magic can be just as powerful if you learn the right spells. Just trot into the fade and say "hey you desire demon over there" "teach me really powerful spells to use against my Templar captors and i will help you invade their bodies". Easy trade. : D

[Rylor Tormtor]

In DnD the robes also serve as walking cabinets with secret magical compartments storing the various ingredients necessary for spellcasting.

In DAO the fatigue system was pretty great but mages draw their power from the fade. There's a ton of fantasy stories were mages draw their power from within and just have to will it into existence.
As to why they wear robes call it tradition if you must but why should they wear anything else they can conjure armor and barriers while actually wearing it would only wear them down with their usually weak physique. Why so many apostates would wear robes though is beyond me and why others, Gascard for instance, don't.

 

Also, there was a codex entry in DAO in the tower that explained why the templer commander had stopped some mages from martial training. 

[Inquisitor7]

While on the mage subject I heard before that mages repair bridges and buildings or whatever, can the inquisitor repair a bridge themselves and do we know how they repair the bridge?

[Treacherous J Slither]

I really don't get the logic behind blood magic Mages. They use it to escape torture or persecution from Templars and then become hooked on it. How is inflicting such pain upon yourself any different from the Circle? At least in the Circle if you are good you are not going to get stabbed every 2 seconds. On the other hand fade magic can be just as powerful if you learn the right spells. Just trot into the fade and say "hey you desire demon over there" "teach me really powerful spells to use against my Templar captors and i will help you invade their bodies". Easy trade. : D

 

Blood magic isn't a narcotic. Mages don't get hooked on it like Templars get hooked on lyrium dust.

 

A blood mage doesn't have to hurt themselves to use the power. They simply need a living blood source. This could be an enemy, a companion, or a bystander, or even an animal like a halla or a nug. The Tevinter Magisters used slaves.

 

Blood magic is popular among renegade mages because Templars can't shut it down like they can do to normal mana based magic.

[Treacherous J Slither]

While on the mage subject I heard before that mages repair bridges and buildings or whatever, can the inquisitor repair a bridge themselves and do we know how they repair the bridge?

 

Is this really possible? Infrastructure mage ftw lol.