123 réponses à ce sujet

[Mornmagor]

Well yeah, concepts/design comes first, balancing comes later.

 

I understand if not every build is not going to have the exact same amount of power behind it. That's unfeasible. But even if it's only single player, I'd prefer the game to at least approach a reasonable balance. And if a class or specialization is too overpowered, I'd hope the devs try and fix it. Isn't that what happened to DAO's mages through patching?

 

I agree. I would like everything to have equal power. And, if not power, since some builds are more mass destruction heavy, like fire mages, i would like everyone to have almost equal chances 1 vs 1. However, from what i've seen in many games so far, magic users, hybrid or not, tend to be in general more powerful, or, at least, usually have the chance to wreck things first.

 

Also, hybrids that can heal and stay melee, like clerics, tend to become unkillable at some point, although they usually can't dish out that much damage.

 

Oh well, we'll have to wait and see.

 

I'm looking forward to the KE, myself. I'll just put on the heaviest armor around, and go melee boosting myself with any magic appropriate i have available. I probably won't even touch mass destruction spells

[Schreckstoff]

Is this really possible? Infrastructure mage ftw lol.

In one of the demos they show Vivienne raising a bridge out of the water akin to Luke raising the Xwing. We've also seen a mage PC opening new areas by destroying what appears to be a wall of ice with fire magic

[Treacherous J Slither]

In one of the demos they show Vivienne raising a bridge out of the water akin to Luke raising the Xwing. We've also seen a mage PC opening new areas by destroying what appears to be a wall of ice with fire magic

 

Alright that's it. I'm hyped. Hyped! Argh, I want this game NAO!

[Treacherous J Slither]

Also, there was a codex entry in DAO in the tower that explained why the templer commander had stopped some mages from martial training. 

 

Would you happen to have this codex entry or at least tell me what it says?

[Rylor Tormtor]

Would you happen to have this codex entry or at least tell me what it says?

 

Here it is: 

 

 

Pile of Rubble in first area after ascending to this level: I have the utmost sympathy for what happened to your charge, but it is beyond the Cicle's ability to anticipate every obscure demise that an apprentice might face, especially involving methods outside the already extensive realm of magical study. We simply don't have the room for additional training facilities, and there are concerns about becoming too inclusive that I will not elaborate on. Your request is denied.

--First Enchanter Sinclair

 

Pile of Books in next room after escaping from the Fade: If space is your excuse, I will surrender my quarters. If it is about money, I will hire the appropriate people. I will not graduate another student ignorant of weapons that any ditch-digger can shove into his ribs. We teach them to append ridiculous glamours on parade arms, but they don't know simple steel. That is criminal.

--Enchanter Bergin

 

Pile of Books in room with Blood Mage and Charmed Templars: Notice herewith that the exercise area on the fourth floor shall serve as permanent berthing for the templar garrison stationed at the tower. Since facilities that accommodate their particular training requirements are already on hand, they will be assuming an even closer watch over Circle affairs. Enchanter Bergin's optional weapons training is canceled until further notice. Enchanter Bergin has additionally stepped down from his teaching duties.

--First Enchanter Sinclair

[Dermain]

EDIT:

You could increase the difficulty level or gimp yourself with weak gear.

I've only played DAO on the normal default difficulty. My mages nuke with abandon. Why would I want to deal with the hassle of friendly fire? 

 

I find these two lines to be hilarious...double standards much? 

 

If you're playing on normal difficulty with no friendly fire then of course the mage is the most overpowered class in Origins. You just have to spam the AoEs and go to sleep! If you actually do up the difficulty to deal with friendly fire you learn that the mage is not the best damage dealing class in the game since you'll be killing your party if you recklessly spam them. 

 

Edit: I also came to the conclusion that you are proving my initial point, that players will choose the over powered option even when offered other options. I find it odd that you disagreed with that statement. 

 When I go rogue I go archer rogue because I haven't gotten the hang of the stabby rogue yet. I'm sure he's monstrous late game but getting there is the hard part because he keeps getting killed and I eventually just give up and grab the bow. 

 

I find that rogues with bows are better than melee rogues, but they're very late game for it to be effective. 

 

I can also use the mages AOE spell targeting glyph to scout areas and clear whole rooms without stepping foot in them. One shotting some unsuspecting mage with Mana Clash is almost as satisfying as roasting baddies in a locked room with Inferno.

 

I'll just leave this here.

 

You could increase the difficulty level or gimp yourself with weak gear.

 

 

Blood magic isn't a narcotic. Mages don't get hooked on it like Templars get hooked on lyrium dust.

 

A blood mage doesn't have to hurt themselves to use the power. They simply need a living blood source. This could be an enemy, a companion, or a bystander, or even an animal like a halla or a nug. The Tevinter Magisters used slaves.

 

Blood magic is popular among renegade mages because Templars can't shut it down like they can do to normal mana based magic.

 

According to WoT, blood magic draws it's power from the pain caused by inflicting said wounds. I'm sure someone who's more read up on the subject can (eventually) provide more information on the subject. On a side note, if blood magic could be used off of animals I think we'd see a hell of a lot more dead animals...just saying...

[Schreckstoff]

According to WoT, blood magic draws it's power from the pain caused by inflicting said wounds. I'm sure someone who's more read up on the subject can (eventually) provide more information on the subject. On a side note, if blood magic could be used off of animals I think we'd see a hell of a lot more dead animals...just saying...

 

Well in DAO the Tevinter magister who is abducting city elves offers to use the elves as sacrifice to raise your constitution.

[Dermain]

Well in DAO the Tevinter magister who is abducting city elves offers to use the elves as sacrifice to raise your constitution.

 

Yes...well...technically elves are animals...as are humans...but that really wasn't my point...

[Ninjasplaycardgames2]

I'm glad the melee is gone personally, I'm liking the look of casting magic bolts from your hands way more. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

@Dermain:

 

What double standard? I simply responded to some guys post with a possible solution to his issue.

 

On normal difficulty the mage rools. On higher difficulties the rogue rools. That's fine. I play all classes but prefer the mage because I like magic and they have this whole interesting history and plight in the story and lore. And yes I like the powah! In DA2 however I prefer to play as the rogue because of all the story/plot stuff that makes walking around Kirkwall as a mage ridiculous. Also because I like ninjas and those pesky foot traps aren't a problem for my sharp eyed rogue. And the Arms Of Mac Tir look too good on my beautiful femHawke to pass up for some ugly gown dress robe rags.

 

Some players pick whatever is strongest. Some players pick whatever they think is cool. Some players pick whatever best fits the story/plot in their eyes. Having an overpowered class doesn't mean that everyone will pick it. I'm sure that there are many people who play as mages on Nightmare difficulty even though the rogue is more powerful for that setting.

 

In DAO my archer rogue is superior to my melee rogue because her distance helps to keep her alive. Her damage output is less than that of the other party members. In the beginning anyway. Later on she becomes my little snipe machine. She is still overall inferior to my mage and warrior Wardens when it comes to combat but she's a blast to play.

 

Blood magic is very poorly implemented in the game. In DAO the blood magic school has a spell that allows you to draw blood from a victim in order to heal yourself. Unfortunately you are unable to use this ability on your enemies and can only use it on your allies. What kind of sense does that make? You are also unable to heal yourself normally with healing spells or potions. Where in the lore does it state any of this? It does say in the lore that blood magic strengthens spells yet that doesn't happen in game either.

 

I've read the WOT entry on blood magic. Pain isn't the power source. The life force in living blood is. Hence the name BLOOD MAGIC. The more life force consumed, the stronger the spell.

[Schreckstoff]

@Dermain:

What double standard? I simply responded to some guys post with a possible solution to his issue.

On normal difficulty the mage rools. On higher difficulties the rogue rools. That's fine. I play all classes but prefer the mage because I like magic and they have this whole interesting history and plight in the story and lore. And yes I like the powah! In DA2 however I prefer to play as the rogue because of all the story/plot stuff that makes walking around Kirkwall as a mage ridiculous. Also because I like ninjas and those pesky foot traps aren't a problem for my sharp eyed rogue. And the Arms Of Mac Tir look too good on my beautiful femHawke to pass up for some ugly gown dress robe rags.

Some players pick whatever is strongest. Some players pick whatever they think is cool. Some players pick whatever best fits the story/plot in their eyes. Having an overpowered class doesn't mean that everyone will pick it. I'm sure that there are many people who play as mages on Nightmare difficulty even though the rogue is more powerful for that setting.

In DAO my archer rogue is superior to my melee rogue because her distance helps to keep her alive. Her damage output is less than that of the other party members. In the beginning anyway. Later on she becomes my little snipe machine. She is still overall inferior to my mage and warrior Wardens when it comes to combat but she's a blast to play.

Blood magic is very poorly implemented in the game. In DAO the blood magic school has a spell that allows you to draw blood from a victim in order to heal yourself. Unfortunately you are unable to use this ability on your enemies and can only use it on your allies. What kind of sense does that make? You are also unable to heal yourself normally with healing spells or potions. Where in the lore does it state any of this? It does say in the lore that blood magic strengthens spells yet that doesn't happen in game either.

I've read the WOT entry on blood magic. Pain isn't the power source. The life force in living blood is. Hence the name BLOOD MAGIC. The more life force consumed, the stronger the spell.

Archer Rogue is one if not the most powerful build in DAO.
Multiple mages are brought along for their CC abilities, Force Field and Crushing Prison are just insane.

Blood Sacrifice is supposed to work that way, The description even says ally.

The blood mage sucks the life-force from an ally, healing the caster but potentially killing the ally. This healing is not affected by the healing penalty of Blood Magic.

It makes sense for conventional healing to not work on blood mages considering they are drawing their magic from the wounds. Healing would cut that off so in that case either make healing not work or make healing end the sustainable.

[Dermain]

@Dermain:

 

What double standard? I simply responded to some guys post with a possible solution to his issue.

 

On normal difficulty the mage rools. On higher difficulties the rogue rools. That's fine. I play all classes but prefer the mage because I like magic and they have this whole interesting history and plight in the story and lore. And yes I like the powah!  In DA2 however I prefer to play as the rogue because of all the story/plot stuff that makes walking around Kirkwall as a mage ridiculous. Also because I like ninjas and those pesky foot traps aren't a problem for my sharp eyed rogue. And the Arms Of Mac Tir look too good on my beautiful femHawke to pass up for some ugly gown dress robe rags.

 

Some players pick whatever is strongest. Some players pick whatever they think is cool. Some players pick whatever best fits the story/plot in their eyes. Having an overpowered class doesn't mean that everyone will pick it. I'm sure that there are many people who play as mages on Nightmare difficulty even though the rogue is more powerful for that setting.

 

I started off in this thread saying that players will likely choose the most overpowered option even if other options presented themselves. You disagreed with me, but you also fall into it. I find it odd that you would do that, and then later claim to other people that they should raise the difficulty when you refuse to do that because it balances out the "power" mages have. It's a bit of a double standard, but you can rationalize that away as the power of "roleplay. Which is a valid response regardless.

 

There is also a ton of lore stating how magic is dangerous, and it is which is further shown by having friendly fire on. The unfortunate part is that Bioware requires you to up the difficulty in order to feel the consequences of friendly fire. Are mages powerful? Definitely. Are they deadly? Of course, but it requires friendly fire to really show how powerful they are. Do you want to use a powerful AoE to wipe out the enemy when it may also wipe out your party? Is it worth it? Unfortunately, it's easy to get around the friendly fire restriction with the use of Blood Wound from the Blood Magic "tree" since it does not affect your party at all. 

 

On harder difficulties the rogue excels at doing high single target damage, but a mage is still useful. A mage can use crushing prison, or make use of the many debuffs in the entropy tree that will increase the damage the party will do to the enemies. Mages still have their use, but it is used in a different manner than just pure damage. 

 

I've only made two warriors so I have no idea how well their damage dealing capabilities are. While I enjoyed 2 (blasphemy around here I know)  it didn't really require me to really over think how to do the combat. Story-Gameplay segregation really showed in 2 as well with the mages.

 

Blood magic is very poorly implemented in the game. In DAO the blood magic school has a spell that allows you to draw blood from a victim in order to heal yourself. Unfortunately you are unable to use this ability on your enemies and can only use it on your allies. What kind of sense does that make? You are also unable to heal yourself normally with healing spells or potions. Where in the lore does it state any of this? It does say in the lore that blood magic strengthens spells yet that doesn't happen in game either.

 

I've read the WOT entry on blood magic. Pain isn't the power source. The life force in living blood is. Hence the name BLOOD MAGIC. The more life force consumed, the stronger the spell.

 

Blood magic is poorly implemented in general throughout the series. For that reason, I'm glad they seem to have removed it as a specialization in DAI. On a more relevant note, it's also completely off topic. 

 

As for melee mages, I was never really enamored of arcane warriors. They were inferior to warriors/rogues in dealing damage through melee, and were required to place their weapons away to cast a spell which further limits their capacity in dealing damage. Will arcane enchanter be the new arcane warrior? I certainly hope not, but I do not see why mages are unable to at least deal melee damage with their staffs (staves? never been sure of which is more correct). Should they use the "martial arts" moves from DA2? I don't know, I certainly didn't mind it but others did. 

[andy6915]

As for melee mages, I was never really enamored of arcane warriors. They were inferior to warriors/rogues in dealing damage through melee, and were required to place their weapons away to cast a spell which further limits their capacity in dealing damage. Will arcane enchanter be the new arcane warrior? I certainly hope not, but I do not see why mages are unable to at least deal melee damage with their staffs (staves? never been sure of which is more correct). Should they use the "martial arts" moves from DA2? I don't know, I certainly didn't mind it but others did. 

 

I agree. I used to like AW for how overpowered and invincible it is, but... I am now utterly bored when I play it like I used to. I said it earlier, it's just an invincible auto attacker which has crappy damage and accuracy and can barely use spells because of the severe mana drain and fatigue and only blood magic make it capable of being a caster in any significant way. I still pick it because shapeshifter is useless and I don't care to be a healer and I already always choose blood magic in DAO, but I don't really use it fully anymore. I'll turn shimmering shield on for the defense when I'm getting torn apart and I need it, but I leave combat magic turned off and still play largely as a true mage. It's useful, but its melee capabilities suck and they take away from my magic abilities due to the mana costs. So I ignore the melee part of that spec.

[Dermain]

I agree. I used to like AW for how overpowered and invincible it is, but... I am now utterly bored when I play it like I used to. I said it earlier, it's just an invincible auto attacker which has crappy damage and accuracy and can barely use spells because of the severe mana drain and fatigue and only blood magic make it capable of being a caster in any significant way. I still pick it because shapeshifter is useless and I don't care to be a healer and I already always choose blood magic in DAO, but I don't really use it fully anymore. I'll turn shimmering shield on for the defense when I'm getting torn apart and I need it, but I leave combat magic turned off and still play largely as a true mage. It's useful, but its melee capabilities suck and they take away from my magic abilities due to the mana costs. So I ignore the melee part of that spec.

 

There is some lore aspect in having an arcane warrior. The elves were apparently renowned for it if that phylactery is to be believed, and Tevinter mages are known to wear heavy armor with swords etc. in battle as well. You can certainly ignore the arcane warrior specialization in Origins and still equip a mage to use armor/weapons, but you would be significantly placing them into even more of a disadvantage. While I suppose roleplaying could justify it I personally prefer to balance out my roleplays with still being effective within the gameplay, or simply saying it's story/gameplay segregation (which is another issue entirely). 

 

I like how DA2 tried to mesh the two together with the change of having staffs (staves?) with weapon attachments even if it wasn't fully utilized. Story wise it makes sense that an apostate mage would attempt to learn how to fight with weapons instead of always using magic (cue story/gameplay segregation). You really wouldn't get far if the only way you knew how to fight involved flashy spells that scream "I AM A MAGE!". Then again, perhaps a melee mage class would be balanced around using (de)buffing spells that boost their melee potential at the cost of losing access to more directly damaging spells.

[andy6915]

When did I bring lore or roleplaying into this? I just mentioned gameplay elements, I didn't bring lore into a single part of that post. It's a fact their damage sucks compared to any true melee based class, it's a fact their attack (accuracy) is terrible, it's a fact that the heavy drain on mana points and the heavy fatigue make spell casting a lot more troublesome. That playstyle feels more like the world's crappiest warrior with a spell here and there than it does playing as a magic slinging mage. How is any of that lore discussion?

[Dermain]

When did I bring lore or roleplaying into this? I just mentioned gameplay elements, I didn't bring lore into a single part of that post. It's a fact their damage sucks compared to any true melee based class, it's a fact their attack (accuracy) is terrible, it's a fact that the heavy drain on mana points and the heavy fatigue make spell casting a lot more troublesome. That playstyle feels more like the world's crappiest warrior with a spell here and there than it does playing as a magic slinging mage. How is any of that lore discussion?

 

You didn't. I brought it up in case someone else would like to try to point it out, and most discussions on the topic inevitably end up there.

 

I'm thinking you're misinterpreting something in what I said, but I also could have phrased it wrong.

 

Either way, the way melee mages have been implemented in the past is horrible, but it could be improved if not removed entirely outright.  

[Treacherous J Slither]

Archer Rogue is one if not the most powerful build in DAO.
Multiple mages are brought along for their CC abilities, Force Field and Crushing Prison are just insane.

Blood Sacrifice is supposed to work that way, The description even says ally.

The blood mage sucks the life-force from an ally, healing the caster but potentially killing the ally. This healing is not affected by the healing penalty of Blood Magic.

It makes sense for conventional healing to not work on blood mages considering they are drawing their magic from the wounds. Healing would cut that off so in that case either make healing not work or make healing end the sustainable.

 

My archer isn't very powerful. Guess I stink at the game. 

 

Why is Blood Sacrifice restricted to allies only? Does this make sense to you? 

 

Also, why would healing with BS be different from healing with potions or regular spells? Physical damage is being repaired either way.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Here it is: 

 

Thanks a bunch for digging this up.

 

The First Enchanter says there isn't any room but that sounds like a bs excuse. Different areas could easily be used for different things at different times. That pro melee Enchanter made some valid points and it's terrible that he just got shot down like that. And for a bs reason too.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@Dermain:

 

On the higher difficulties is friendly fire a factor for all classes or just the mage? Do the melee classes have to worry about accidentally shooting or stabbing an ally?

 

I never understood the AW's popularity. It seems so poorly done. It would have been a lot better if weapon skill trees were available and there was no need to sheath weapons to cast a spell. A mage can nuke with a staff in their hands but doing so with a sword is impossible? Really?

[In Exile]

Archer Rogue is one if not the most powerful build in DAO.
Multiple mages are brought along for their CC abilities, Force Field and Crushing Prison are just insane.

Blood Sacrifice is supposed to work that way, The description even says ally.

The blood mage sucks the life-force from an ally, healing the caster but potentially killing the ally. This healing is not affected by the healing penalty of Blood Magic.

It makes sense for conventional healing to not work on blood mages considering they are drawing their magic from the wounds. Healing would cut that off so in that case either make healing not work or make healing end the sustainable.

I've yet to see evidence of any vanilla DA:O archer build that compares with a mage or even a warrior. 

[Schreckstoff]

My archer isn't very powerful. Guess I stink at the game.

Why is Blood Sacrifice restricted to allies only? Does this make sense to you?

Also, why would healing with BS be different from healing with potions or regular spells? Physical damage is being repaired either way.

Blood Sacrifice is restricted to allies as it would be too good otherwise. For lore purposes it'd probably be hard to sacrifice soneone who's actively fighting you.

As to why healing with BS works idk if that is simply for the sake of gameplay balance or if it is because of lore and BS is supposed to substitute your own blood for spells and hence you can heal yourself while using the others blood for spells or something.

[Ziegrif]

Knight Enchanter sounds like the Leeroy Jenkins class.

 

Love it.

[Schreckstoff]

@Dermain:

On the higher difficulties is friendly fire a factor for all classes or just the mage? Do the melee classes have to worry about accidentally shooting or stabbing an ally?

I never understood the AW's popularity. It seems so poorly done. It would have been a lot better if weapon skill trees were available and there was no need to sheath weapons to cast a spell. A mage can nuke with a staff in their hands but doing so with a sword is impossible? Really?

Friendly Fire is only a factor for mages from my experience.

AW was simply the best tank, almost indestructible and with easy threat management. He had access to all mage spells for the beginning of the fight so you'd start a battle at least with 2 mages. So 2 force fields 2 crushing prisons simultaneously etc.

I found it boring and hence through mods reduced limitations and fatigue.

[Gtdef]

What games do you guys play? Melee rogue is the superior dps class in all DA games by a mile. Only in awakening archer rogue gets a boost but still can't match dagger rogue in dps.

 

The trick is to pump dex. Getting the right gear and around 60 dex in DAO and rogue becomes immune to physical damage with 100% dodge chance. Add double haste and he doesn't even need talents to destroy everything cause momentum doesn't stack anyway so it's irrelevant. 2 backstabs/second at 90-100 damage each by the end game, 2shotting most enemies and slices the archdemon like butter. And that's on nightmare with a goddamn dex build. If you go retard cun build he does even more damage but he takes a lot too.

 

In awakening he is even more ridiculous and he has decoy as well, so not only he reaches crit damage cap with 2-3 items and backstabs for 420~ damage literally oneshotting everything on nightmare, but decoy makes him an immortal god without even needing dex. The only problem is that some bosses are immune to  backstab (like mother), but with double song of courage and he gets around 60% crit chance anyway lol. Plus the new talent that makes all his hits criticals while burning stamina.

 

In DA2 he gets 100% crit chance and 400% crit damage while being obscured in most of the fight. If you have the dlcs he has elemental daggers with double damage coverage against everything and crits assassinates for 25000+ damage with the right setup (brittle, mark, hex and rally with upgraded might). Not that he really needs it cause his autoattacks hit 900 damage. And obscuring makes him almost immune to physical damage. it's the most broken dps class by a mile.

 

There is no class that even comes close to dagger rogue from both dps and survivability perspective. It's so durable that it's the easiest class to solo nightmare in both games and he does 2-3 times the dps of every other class in single target. His only problem is that he gets boring after a while. When you get all the support skills you need then you literally just "target next"->"attack" and assassinate the elites.

 

Caster mages only win the "overpowered" award in DAO is because they have enough damage to burst whole armies with 3-4 spells. But if they can't kill them all with the burst then they have to wait for cooldowns. Rogue doesn't have this problem.