150 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Personally, I don't care **** for that. I don't make optimal parties, I don't make optimal chars, and I'm not particularly interested in learning the under-hood mechanics either. My interest is in a game that still works, whatever choices I make for the sake of role-play sentiments, or variation. I learn what I need to win, from feedback, no more. A more "difficult" game has the meaning that I need to learn more, and do more retries. To me, DA:O 'Nightmare' is difficult. And it is so to most people. Which is the meaning of what I said: DA:O has about the right difficulty. On the PC, DA2 is IMO easier. Some battles may take longer, or rely on a little bit of randomness, but that has nothing to do with difficulty.

 

If you want to talk about nightmare, DA2 on PC is much harder on nightmare than DA:O, and it has nothing to do with randomness, but rather with the (overall superior) mechanics that DA2 has over DA:O, and the substantial reduction in overpowered options. 

 

I appreciate that you're not into building optimal parties or optimal builds, but that's precisely the nature of the discussion on how difficult a particular game is at the upper bound.

[In Exile]

 

But.. wasn't it.. "How can anyone say before we've had a look at the actual mechanics?"

K, then we can comment, after all? Something has been shown, yes? 

 

What we know so far:

 

• giant discrepancy between enemies' HP and player characters' HP
• giant discrepancy between enemies' attack speed and player characters' attack speed
• classes are still comically made distinct by being divided into 'can wield these weapons' and 'cannot wield these weapons' categories

 

The first and third points are foundation features for XCOM:EU, which is certainly a high tactical game. 

[Provi-dance]

The first and third points are foundation features for XCOM:EU, which is certainly a high tactical game. 

 

I'm curious, is there friendly fire in XCOM:EU? Is HP discrepancy present even when comparing, say, player human warrior to enemy human warrior?

 

So, in XCOM:EU, class A can only use, e.g., pistols/lasers and class B rocket launchers and melee weapons?

[KaiserShep]

my guess is that there will be a ton of bitching here when the game comes out, which will make it seem (to the people who frequent these forums) like everyone hates the combat.

 

Could you expect any less? If complaints were currency, we'd be millionaires.

[Afro_Explosion]

The BSN: We see a snippet of combat and abilites and jump to conclusions.

[KaiserShep]

I do have one major concern about the combat that comes from the Dwarfquisitor Leak video. It seems far too easy to "Stunlock" enemies with regular attacks. Did anyone else notice that? Especially the Drakes that just get juggled completely with sword and axe strikes, never really having a chance to attack at all.

 

It could be on account of difficulty. I imagine on Normal or higher, enemies will have higher resistance to stun-lock.

[Deflagratio]

It could be on account of difficulty. I imagine on Normal or higher, enemies will have higher resistance to stun-lock.

 

 

I also think it may just be an animation or kinetic feedback thing. Like the actual "Strike" only seems like its stunning visually, but instead they just have really low attack speed, or the animation is failing to play over something else.

 

The High Dragon also exhibits this trait, with strikes showing some visual kinetic impact on the body, but it doesn't seem to phase her until she gets knocked down.

 

The first and third points are foundation features for XCOM:EU, which is certainly a high tactical game. 

 

That's a good point I'm glad someone else brought up. The Asymmetry in HP/Stats only bugs me a little, and it's a very superficial irritant. What matters most is how the combat feels and plays out. If they need high HP on certain/all enemies to create a good encounter, I can't complain too much.

 

I assume most of the Asymmetry complaints are focused around Alexis, the boss Mage in Redcliffe, but I also feel like I shouldn't have to point out, he's a boss in a boss encounter. Did they want him to have 475HP and die in one yet? Sure, maybe they could have brought his DEF to a point where the mitigation would actually increase his effective health twenty-fold, but functionally it's the same effect. (And perhaps these balancing layers have yet to go into the game as they work out a way to expedite the process through procedural means)

[Wulfram]

I don't think there's a real discrepancy between player and enemy HP in XCOM.  I mean, Muton's and cyberdiscs are tough, but it's all on the same basic scale.

 

It's not like DA2, where it's on a totally different scale.  Though that doesn't inherently remove strategy.  I think the basic point of it isn't too bad - it allows the players hitpoints to remain static, which means that investing in CON isn't so useless, while not removing all sense of progress by keeping player damage the same.  But it does mess up Friendly Fire.

[Mr.House]

Combat looks fun, that's all that matters, DAO was not even that tactical except for bosses on nightmare, and even then the game was not that hard or tactical.

[Pateu]

Wait... you found DA:O difficult? Seriously?

 

I bet you're either trolling or stuffed your face with DLC items.

 

I honestly find DA2 Nightmare more difficult than DAO Nightmare.

 

As do I. Thing is DA2 Nightmare is the only mode that's any bit challenging. The rest are a joke.

 

onsidering the fact that DA2 doesn't allow you party control.

 

What?

[Mr.House]

I bet you're either trolling or stuffed your face with DLC items.

 

 

I've played games like BG2, FO ect

 

These games in comparison make DAO extremely easy even on nightmare, so don't accuse people of trolling just because they find the game easier then what people claim.

[ShaggyWolf]

I think it looks fantastic and promising, and I can't wait to play the game myself

[The Baconer]

• giant discrepancy between enemies' HP and player characters' HP
• giant discrepancy between enemies' attack speed and player characters' attack speed

 

 

Yes, these features imply that enemies will work more similarly to DA2 than DA:O, which is a shame. While having the occasional 'unique' type that demands a change in tactics can be cool (such as the shielded Templar), I'd prefer it if enemies would work within the same rules as the player's party.

 

For example, the presence of HP bloat could be to counter the obscene damage that a cross-class-combo can put out, but I think it would make the combat more interesting and deadly if the enemies were also allowed to make use of these combos.

 

If you want to talk about nightmare, DA2 on PC is much harder on nightmare than DA:O, and it has nothing to do with randomness, but rather with the (overall superior) mechanics that DA2 has over DA:O, and the substantial reduction in overpowered options. 

 

I think this is only true to an extent. I think DA2 derives most of its difficulty from NUMBERS. As in, BIGGER DAMAGE, MOAR HP, and MOAR DUDES. And then there was the fact that certain boss-level enemies only had a certain amount of hp that could be removed in one attack (wtf?). Essentially, we were given tools, and then punished for using them optimally.

 

At its most ridiculous, surviving a Saarebas or a Blood Mage simply depended on whether or not you knew exactly where and when it would spawn, which is stupid.

[In Exile]

 

I'm curious, is there friendly fire in XCOM:EU? Is HP discrepancy present even when comparing, say, player human warrior to enemy human warrior?

 

So, in XCOM:EU, class A can only use, e.g., pistols/lasers and class B rocket launchers and melee weapons?

 

There is friendly fire, but most abilities don't have it. XCOM is a humans vs. aliens game, so you don't really have any kind of comparison between your troops and enemy troops, but you're basically not on an even platform when it comes to the higher difficulties (plus the RNG is basically chained in a very favorable way to the player on lower difficulties). 

 

There are some weapons that are class locked as far as I recall - rocket launchers and snipers - but others aren't (like pistols/rifles). 

 

But the basic gameplay is all about facing a dice that are very heavily loaded against you in terms of your dmg output, HP, durability, numbers, etc. You're not on an even playing field at all. 

 

That's a good point I'm glad someone else brought up. The Asymmetry in HP/Stats only bugs me a little, and it's a very superficial irritant. What matters most is how the combat feels and plays out. If they need high HP on certain/all enemies to create a good encounter, I can't complain too much.

 

I assume most of the Asymmetry complaints are focused around Alexis, the boss Mage in Redcliffe, but I also feel like I shouldn't have to point out, he's a boss in a boss encounter. Did they want him to have 475HP and die in one yet? Sure, maybe they could have brought his DEF to a point where the mitigation would actually increase his effective health twenty-fold, but functionally it's the same effect. (And perhaps these balancing layers have yet to go into the game as they work out a way to expedite the process through procedural means)

 

HP asymmetry is basically necessary to have boss fights. Mooks, not necessarily, but if there's no assymetry then you basically have to have endless waves, because the player is just way, way better at the game. 

[Pateu]

I've played games like BG2, FO ect

 

These games in comparison make DAO extremely easy even on nightmare, so don't accuse people of trolling just because they find the game easier then what people claim.

 

What does FO even mean.

[In Exile]

What does FO even mean.

 

... Fallout? 

[Provi-dance]

Yes, these features imply that enemies will work more similarly to DA2 than DA:O, which is a shame. While having the occasional 'unique' type that demands a change in tactics can be cool (such as the shielded Templar), I'd prefer it if enemies would work within the same rules as the player's party.

 

 

 

 

 I think DA2 derives most of its difficulty from NUMBERS. As in, BIGGER DAMAGE, MOAR HP, and MOAR DUDES. 

 

Yes. Bioware's combat mechanics design philosophy is perplexing.

 

 

 

 

 

There is friendly fire, but most abilities don't have it. XCOM is a humans vs. aliens game

 

 

Right. This explains a lot, including the HP discrepancy which is in harmony with the lore, I suppose.

[Provi-dance]

 

 

 

 

 

HP asymmetry is basically necessary to have boss fights. Mooks, not necessarily, but if there's no assymetry then you basically have to have endless waves, because the player is just way, way better at the game. 

 

 

This is simply not true.

[KaiserShep]

As do I. Thing is DA2 Nightmare is the only mode that's any bit challenging. The rest are a joke.

 

I dunno man. On top of the level scaling, Hawke encounters far more powerful enemies with greater frequency throughout the game than the Warden does on Normal difficulty. I was genuinely surprised by the new powers hurlock emissaries and arcane horrors had, because in DA:O, I never had either of these things wipe out my entire party in one blast. And then enemy mages had the same abilities, and the gorram Saarebas! And then there were the rogues. On Normal, any dual-wielding rogue could either wipe out more than half your health, or simply knock you out with a single strike from behind, made worse by the fact that they would suddenly disappear from the battlefield, necessitating either getting your back to the wall to prevent backstabs, or unleashing some weapon or spell that would knock them out of stealth. Going solo in DA:O was relatively easy compared to DA2. I learned that the hard way when I left the Hanged Man at night in Act 2, and was greeted instantly by a horde of dog lords. I don't think the Warden ever encountered anything as powerful as that ancient rock wraith in the Deep Roads. Compound this with the fact that DA2 no longer allowed you to horde and spam health poultices like DA:O, and it made for a more challenging game overall.

[Russian Berserker]

I dunno man. On top of the level scaling, Hawke encounters far more powerful enemies with greater frequency throughout the game than the Warden does on Normal difficulty. I was genuinely surprised by the new powers hurlock emissaries and arcane horrors had, because in DA:O, I never had either of these things wipe out my entire party in one blast. And then enemy mages had the same abilities, and the gorram Saarebas! And then there were the rogues. On Normal, any dual-wielding rogue could either wipe out more than half your health, or simply knock you out with a single strike from behind, made worse by the fact that they would suddenly disappear from the battlefield, necessitating either getting your back to the wall to prevent backstabs, or unleashing some weapon or spell that would knock them out of stealth. Going solo in DA:O was relatively easy compared to DA2. I learned that the hard way when I left the Hanged Man at night in Act 2, and was greeted instantly by a horde of dog lords. Compound this with the fact that DA2 no longer allowed you to horde and spam health poultices like DA:O, and it made for a more challenging game overall.

Kirkwall...I wonder how an average person walks to their house at night..

 

And I even saw a guard staring at me fighting an army of thieves with aveline, and when I was done, I talked to him. Do you know what he said to me?

 

Guardsman: "Captain Aveline, all's well."

 

Aveline: "Carry on"

[KaiserShep]

Kirkwall...I wonder how an average person walks to their house in the night

 

Lol, seriously. Random bandits are just lingering about, sometimes accompanied with a mage. I imagine quite a few Kirkwallers simply disappear and become another hopeless slave.

 

 

And I even saw a guard staring at my fighting an army of thieves with aveline, and when I was done, I talked to him. Do you know what he said to me?

 

Guardsman: "Captain Aveline, all's well."

 

Aveline: "Carry on"

 

One major issue I always had was with the reactivity of NPC's. I always wished that Dragon Age had something similar to Grand Theft Auto, in that people will flee if a fight breaks out, or that others, like guards/police, would get involved. This reminds me of the apostate quest in DA:Awakenings, when you're hunting down mages in the city of Amaranthine. When you get to that one shady apprentice on the battlement, when he draws his staff and runs, the guard that's up there will also join the fray. It's too bad the guards in Kirkwall don't do that.

[Russian Berserker]

Lol, seriously. Random bandits are just lingering about, sometimes accompanied with a mage. I imagine quite a few Kirkwallers simply disappear and become another hopeless slave.

 

I used to wonder where Aveline and her guardsmen were, then i LOLed when I saw her husband taking on an army.

[The Qun & the Damned]

other than the flashy animation effects and the archers drawing arrows from ether, I like it.

[ianvillan]

I would like to know if it is possible to have a whole fight in tactical view, so far we have seen them pause the game issue a few orders and then return to the action style of combat or even if you have to hold a button to keep the game paused.

 

I would like to know if the dragon fight is possible in Tactical View when it flies away from the player and off the screen. Would the rolling mechanic be usable in Tactical or even be usable in the tactics you can apply to your party.

 

I suppose my main problem is why the Tactical View has to be a totally separate mode from the normal game, why must you press a button to go into Tactical and why has it got different systems in just that mode. Origins Isometric View was just that a different view you could zoom out too, the game played identically no matter how far you were zoomed out. To have the Tactical Mode a separate system says to me that the game was created as an action game with all the features that brings with it, and that the Tactical Mode was added after with different systems because it did not work with what they had already made.

[In Exile]

This is simply not true.

 

What example can you give of a boss fight where each hit off the boss, in an RPG mind you, not an action game with real time dodge, does 10-25% of the HP total? Because that's what it would mean not to have asymmetrical HP. A boss dead in 4-10 hits.