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Ashley's racist remarks were spot on?


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#26
Battlebloodmage

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Puddlkoma's point still stands. The entire ME3 game is about making it possible for everyone to work together. The actual endgame mechanics are another discussion entirely. 

 

But regardless of how much troops, Shepard would still end up next to the star kid. That's the only thing that matter since regardless of how much troops we have, we CAN"T defeat the reapers, so cooperation is pretty pointless. It's like a fool errant in a way. 

 

As for Ashley, it's not about treating other aliens as other inferior races but just dealing with them cautiously, like they are toward us. Being too trustworthy is never good when dealing with a big diverse military group. 


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#27
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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There's a difference between not trusting the governments of the other races, basically not trusting another country, and discriminating against individuals. I'm not a fan of North Korea. But if I met a North Korean, I would treat him/her the same way as I would anyone else.

Ashley goes so far as to complain about Garrus/Wrex/Tali's presence on board the ship and compare the other races to animals. 

This comes down to what I see as a major flaw in the writing of Mass Effect, the races are associated with their governments far too much. A salarian born on Thessia is a citizen of the Asari Republics, right? Wait, we don't know that. Something like that would've been perfect to include in the Codex. 

The names of the nations are bad, too, outside of the Alliance. 

Earth Systems Alliance
Illuminated Primacy
Asari Republics

Salarian Union
Turian Hierarchy
Batarian Hegemony
Volus Protectorate

Getting 2 out of 7 names right is pretty bad. 
 



#28
KaiserShep

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This is why I appreciate Ashley's outlook. She even says herself that allies shouldn't be turned down, but they shouldn't bet everything on them staying allies.
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#29
DeinonSlayer

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Um, hell no. There is never an excuse for racism. People always deserve to be berated for thinking its okay to act and treat others based on generalizations.

Yeah, yeah, whatever. People can bluster all they want about this, but the moment they see someone dressed like a gang member walking towards them, they go to the other side of the street. People make generalized judgments of others all the time. It's a survival instinct. And before someone starts in on me, that's not talking race, that's culture.

What's that line from Gran Torino? "These guys don't wanna be your 'bro' and I don't blame 'em."



Anyway, this is irrelevant. Ashley was not making a racist statement. As has been explained many times, she's a human nationalist, not a xenophobe. She postulated how the governments of the leading Council species would react in the face of an existential threat, and she was correct in her assumptions.
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#30
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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#31
Obadiah

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@Battlebloodmage
I try not to put unrealistic expectations on people and then complain about it when they don't meet them. They didn't go behind MY back. I had an expectation they were spying, just as I assume they understood that I was collecting information on them.

#32
DeinonSlayer

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There's a difference between not trusting the governments of the other races, basically not trusting another country, and discriminating against individuals. I'm not a fan of North Korea. But if I met a North Korean, I would treat him/her the same way as I would anyone else.

Agreed, Ashley is speaking of the other species here in terms of their governments.

Ashley goes so far as to complain about Garrus/Wrex/Tali's presence on board the ship and compare the other races to animals.

She's concerned about non-Alliance personnel wandering unsupervised around a military stealth frigate. It's a legitimate concern, but as Shepard can quickly explain, it was his command decision (or, in the case of Tali, a superior's order if you didn't bring her voluntarily - only one of my six Shepards voiced opposition to doing so). As for the "animals" line, that's a bug; the line is meant to only be used near Keepers. Still, it's understandable that someone who has potentially never seen a Hanar before might not realize that it's sapient before some kind of communication takes place. If you didn't have a translator on you, the only way you'd know an elcor was talking to you would be a slight change in the musk it lets off.

At least Ashley doesn't fall into the same trap Leela does. :D

Leela-Eating-Popplers-Like-A-Maniac-On-F
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#33
Bardox9

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Not sure I would say she was "spot on". I would say the other races were about as selfish and condescending as humans were. Didn't see Hackett rushing the remains of the Alliance fleet to defend Palavin or Thesia. Shepard was out there solo building those alliances with the rest of the galaxy. Then there was the human group Cerberus. Biggest bag of d*cks in the galaxy IMO... maybe a tie for the Batarians.

 

Was Ashley "right"? I wouldn't go that far. Let's just say she wasn't entirely wrong.... still racist remarks and she deserves a good spanking.



#34
DeinonSlayer

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Tali stole human technology for the flotilla (after telling you that she wouldn't do such a thing)

Nope.

Granted, I think it'd make a more interesting story if she did, but word of god says she didn't.

#35
DeinonSlayer

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Not sure I would say she was "spot on". I would say the other races were about as selfish and condescending as humans were. Didn't see Hackett rushing the remains of the Alliance fleet to defend Palavin or Thesia. Shepard was out there solo building those alliances with the rest of the galaxy. Then there was the human group Cerberus. Biggest bag of d*cks in the galaxy IMO... maybe a tie for the Batarians.
 
Was Ashley "right"? I wouldn't go that far. Let's just say she wasn't entirely wrong.... still racist remarks and she deserves a good spanking.

I'm sure her 'mancers are lining up to deliver. :devil:

OK, I think I've had enogh to drink tonight.

#36
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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Can I point out how, while not racist, incredibly stupid her views on the how "allies" things are? She must not have been paying attention in history class. 

The Asari and Salarians have been allies without problem for two thousand years. The Volus joined up a little after that with little issue. The Turians have been a steady ally with those 3, and especially the Volus, for 1300 or so years. The Hanar and Elcor seem to be pretty happy as well. Sure, the Batarians, Krogan, and Quarians aren't being treated 'kindly,' but the treatment of the Batarians is their own fault, same with the Krogan. The Quarians have some gripes, but they have no one to blame but themselves and the Geth. (Speaking of that, what are the chances that if those 17 million Quarians don't escape that the Council fleets go in and annihilate the Geth?)

Ashley is a bit paranoid. 



#37
Obadiah

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Wait wait. Weekes expects us to believe that Tali was on board a terrorist Quarian-enemy owned stealth ship with full access to its systems, and that she didn't steal the technology? That's just a stupid notion.
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#38
slimgrin

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Ashley was a xenophobe and indirectly she was right. But I don't put much stock in Bioware's writing at this point, so that's about as far as the theory goes. Fans tend to put more thought into the plot than Bioware did.



#39
DeinonSlayer

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Can I point out how, while not racist, incredibly stupid her views on the how "allies" things are? She must not have been paying attention in history class. 

The Asari and Salarians have been allies without problem for two thousand years. The Volus joined up a little after that with little issue. The Turians have been a steady ally with those 3, and especially the Volus, for 1300 or so years. The Hanar and Elcor seem to be pretty happy as well. Sure, the Batarians, Krogan, and Quarians aren't being treated 'kindly,' but the treatment of the Batarians is their own fault, same with the Krogan. The Quarians have some gripes, but they have no one to blame but themselves and the Geth. (Speaking of that, what are the chances that if those 17 million Quarians don't escape that the Council fleets go in and annihilate the Geth?)

Ashley is a bit paranoid.

The Asari and Salarians are such good friends that the former still haven't told the latter about the treasure trove of Prothean artifacts they're sitting on?

I see it as a constant, quiet power struggle between the three galactic powers, moreso than a partnership.

It could be argued that Council law compelled the Quarians to shut the Geth down in the first place. Still, the Council didn't do anything about the Geth as the first 2+ billion Quarians were systemically exterminated; I don't see them doing anything if they wipe out the last 17 million in armed conflict. The Council wouldn't want to risk provoking them, and the Geth would likely resume their isolation. Even if you make peace and choose Control, the Quarians and Geth are depicted separately, indicating an ongoing degree of segregation - they don't trust each other, and I don't blame either side for their misgivings.
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#40
teh DRUMPf!!

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Wait wait. Weekes expects us to believe that Tali was on board a terrorist Quarian-enemy owned stealth ship with full access to its systems, and that she didn't steal the technology? That's just stupid notion.

 

Yeah, it's not like Tali's writer dictates what she says and does...



#41
DeinonSlayer

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Yeah, it's not like Tali's writer dictates what she says and does...

It's still kinda stupid, along with many other things in that arc...

I think it'd be a better story if she had actually been the source of the plans, but didn't relinquish what she learned on the SR-1 voluntarily. Her father assigned her a mission in Geth space. Every organic craft spotted in Geth space for the last three centuries has been destroyed on sight, so upon receiving the assignment, she'd have to share what she learned and incorporate it into the shuttle they used to get there or she and her team would die (Reegar tells us their shuttle had a low emissions mode). Makes more sense to me, at least.

But yeah - Ashley. Something about spanking?
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#42
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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The Asari and Salarians are such good friends that the former still haven't told the latter about the treasure trove of Prothean artifacts they're sitting on?

I see it as a constant, quiet power struggle between the three galactic powers, moreso than a partnership.

It could be argued that Council law compelled the Quarians to shut the Geth down in the first place. Still, the Council didn't do anything about the Geth as the first 2+ billion Quarians were systemically exterminated; I don't see them doing anything if they wipe out the last 17 million in armed conflict. The Council wouldn't want to risk provoking them, and the Geth would likely resume their isolation. Even if you make peace and choose Control, the Quarians and Geth are depicted separately, indicating an ongoing degree of segregation - they don't trust each other, and I don't blame either side for their misgivings.

The US is pretty damn good friends with the UK, yet doesn't give them military secrets. Hell, the various spy agencies tap into the phone lines and systems of all the NATO allies. 

Is there free and open trade between the nations? Yes. Do they cooperate on political issues? Yes. Do their militaries work together? Yes. Seems like a "partnership." May still be a power struggle, but that doesn't mean it's not complete beneficial. 

The Quarians would've done tried to shut down the Geth regardless (not that I entirely blame them.) If no Quarians make it out alive, then it seems likely they would move in to eliminate the threat, since they would know very little about it. 


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#43
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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Wait wait. Weekes expects us to believe that Tali was on board a terrorist Quarian-enemy owned stealth ship with full access to its systems, and that she didn't steal the technology? That's just stupid notion.

There's a huge difference between stealing the technology from the SR-1 and taking it from Cerberus. It wasn't you who claimed as such, but the stealth system isn't human technology. The Turians also developed it, and the Salarians also have it. 

If Tali did take it from Cerberus, good for her. I knew I liked her a lot for a reason. Well, I have a lot of other reasons. But that's just another. 


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#44
zestalyn

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DeinonSlayer, on 22 Jun 2014 - 12:41 AM, said:

Yeah, yeah, whatever. People can bluster all they want about this, but the moment they see someone dressed like a gang member walking towards them, they go to the other side of the street. People make generalized judgments of others all the time. It's a survival instinct. And before someone starts in on me, that's not talking race, that's culture.

What's that line from Gran Torino? "These guys don't wanna be your 'bro' and I don't blame 'em."



Anyway, this is irrelevant. Ashley was not making a racist statement. As has been explained many times, she's a human nationalist, not a xenophobe. She postulated how the governments of the leading Council species would react in the face of an existential threat, and she was correct in her assumptions.

 

Sorry, find that first comment problematic, cause what do you know, alot of times i t does come down to race. For wayyyyy too many people, looking like a gang member is the same as simply being black or latino, and look at all the crap that ensues because of that. I see it happen all the time to my black/latino firends from NYC's stop-and-frisk policy, to when they get pulled over by the cops, sometimes with a gun to his face, despite being clean and a bloody Ivy League student. And uh, hate to go there,but there's cases like Trayvon Martin...Sorry if it's just blustering to you, but cultural generalizations do tend to be apart of racial profiling, and it becomes problematic to alooot of people who are not criminals. Walk on whatever side of the street you want, but that doesn't mean you should discriminate people. 

Anyways, just because Ashley happens to understand the basic notions of survival instinct, doesn't mean she gets a pat on the back for believing the alien crew members should be treated differently just because they're not human.  I get it, they're not Alliance, but it's a Spectre's ship and what in the world are one turian and krogan going to do? Back to OP, her "human nationalist" view doesn't do much for what needs to get done in ME3, and therefore I disagree with her view. 



#45
SwobyJ

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Pretty sure that every single character in the Mass Effect universe is correct about something in some way. That's how Bioware rolls.

 

Now whether they're 'right' or 'trustworthy' or 'believable' or whatever.. that's up to you.

 

You can take what Ashley says in ME1 onward and apply it, and you'll be just as successful (in a certain view) as you would otherwise be. Keep aliens at arms length, manipulate or fight or ally with them when it is required. Focus on keeping Alliance and human resources and power intact, because in this story, it is the Alliance, humans, and Shepard that allow this fight against the Reapers to even happen for the most part anyway. Its the larger assets and solutions that are found through the 'other' (aliens, friends, synthetics, etc), and all require some sort of sacrifice (personal, species, organic) in order to acquire those. You can reject them, and stick to humanity when understandable, and be fine.

 

Sidenote: I love how you can pretty much ignore most alien henchmen in ME2 (recruiting only a few, no loyalty) and with DLC, have a still substantially sized human group to deal with - Miranda, Jacob, Jack, Zaeed, Kasumi (nearly 1/2 the max). ME1 can end with just Kaidan/Ashley, Tali, and Liara. ME3 can end with just Ashley/Kaidan, James, Liara, and EDI (Destroyed though).

 

You don't need aliens as your friends and stalwart allies when it comes to defeating the Reapers. You don't need to inspire anything, except a sort of surprised fear at what you'd do to them if they don't comply with you, follow your lead, and maybe realize the urgency of the fight.



#46
SwobyJ

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When it comes to that race thing, of course there's the blindly discriminatory. There's also the blindly naive. Crossing an empty street because there's a group of very thug-looking people in your is something you're going to do unless you feel really safe somehow - or are armed yourself.

 

This is just one of the things that comes along with dealing with the unfamiliar. Personally, in my life in a city, I try to be as trusting as I can allow myself, of anyone I meet. But I know that a mugging or worse could happen in an instant.

 

You do know that even you discriminate every day, right? That is is actually human to do so? It's wrongful, or codified, or systemic discrimination that tends to make things worse. Especially when it brings on passion or fury that is logically unwarranted.

 

As survival becomes less important to a society (as bad things can be for people in say North America, its still usually a far cry from other regions), yes, they'll opt more for trust. But that doesn't remove the baser instinct that will opt for the familiar (even in such stupid to rely on terms like 'race') for the sake of survival. Like with like, like forms community/family with like, like keeps other like safe and destroys unlike. Grunt grunt. Keeps you alive longer in some simple ways, but in a place where that's less important, it looks primitive. And it is. But it also speaks to a truth. Life is complicated. :S

 

~~~

 

Wrongful discrimination also feeds on conflict or isolation. In order for Ashley to keep considering herself so correct, the Alliance would have had to segregate itself from the Citadel species, or gone to war with the Turians or something like that. Then, she'd be justified.

 

But over time, positive interactions with aliens had to happen. We know she has them behind the scenes and in places like elevators and in combat in ME1. She sticks with the Alliance but despises human-supremacy in ME2. She takes on the role of Spectre and regardless of hardening/non-hardening in ME1, she has a more positive view of aliens in ME3, to the point of protecting the Council from threats (regardless of Udina being there - she hates Udina too anyway).

 

This is why she's wearing the blue. Having learned more, she has become a protector of the many, even if a more blunt form of one compared to Kaidan. As a result though, her resolve about the world becomes more muddled, and she has to decide to stick to her new role of protecting all of the Council, in her new role as protector... or stick to the familiar ("You know me") Shepard (who can sometimes be in red armor, red eyes, Renegade, and is human-centric himself).

 

That was the Citadel coup - or at least the better aspects of it. Ashley had good but uninformed points in ME1, retreated into the familiar but in a softened way in ME2, and stood up in acceptance of aliens in ME3 - if only for the sake of the war effort.


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#47
zestalyn

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When it comes to that race thing, of course there's the blindly discriminatory. There's also the blindly naive. Crossing an empty street because there's a group of very thug-looking people in your is something you're going to do unless you feel really safe somehow - or are armed yourself.

 

This is just one of the things that comes along with dealing with the unfamiliar. Personally, in my life in a city, I try to be as trusting as I can allow myself, of anyone I meet. But I know that a mugging or worse could happen in an instant.

 

You do know that even you discriminate every day, right? That is is actually human to do so? It's wrongful, or codified, or systemic discrimination that tends to make things worse. Especially when it brings on passion or fury that is logically unwarranted.

 

As survival becomes less important to a society (as bad things can be for people in say North America, its still usually a far cry from other regions), yes, they'll opt more for trust. But that doesn't remove the baser instinct that will opt for the familiar (even in such stupid to rely on terms like 'race') for the sake of survival. Like with like, like forms community/family with like, like keeps other like safe and destroys unlike. Grunt grunt. Keeps you alive longer in some simple ways, but in a place where that's less important, it looks primitive. And it is. But it also speaks to a truth. Life is complicated. :S


did something in my comment suggest i think im not guilty of discrimination? im a city kid, i know what applying street smarts is about. its the systemic discrimination im talking about, and thats why i believe you don't handwave people who say applying prejudice is bad, and call it blustering about it. 

Anyways, I agree with your previous post. The whole point of this game is that you can achieve the same goal with different point of views. If it was Ash in charge of the Normandy, she probably could've succeeded in some way too, but probably in totally different way from lets say, a paragon Shep. And here's where opinions come in again- IMO the kind of consequences an Ash-like approach would leave behind are problematic, and that's why I play a paragon Shep who totally shot down Ash's views. 



#48
SwobyJ

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I'm not really completely disagreeing with anyone here.

 

And I was mostly Paragon in the trilogy but with a more Paragade twist in ME3 (I will try to understand the Reapers, but not to the point of allowing them to exist as they are).



#49
andy6915

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Don't even get me started on not sabotaging the Genophage cure...

 

Those Krogan will surely follow birth control measures and respect other species this time around because... Wrex is my bro I guess.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Read my thread, the Krogan are harmless even if they go nuts again.

 

http://forum.bioware...-warring-again/



#50
CynicalShep

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I find the modern political correctness more of a farce than anything. Now just about anything is some sort of "-ist" or "-obic" (racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.). It is common sense to trust the alien and unknown less until it proves itself trustworthy. It's how living things survive. As much as you try to be unbiased and judge everyone equally I will bet you money that you won't go and hug a grizzly tomorrow. Why? Because they're prone to violence. Very prone to violence but my point still stands. Ashley isn't a closet racist, she is just less trusting a person than you are. I find her attitude healthy and logical and even find myself agreeing with most of the things she says. A person is unique - a group is not. Salarians are tech savvy, turians are disciplined, krogans are aggressive and vorchas are stupid. Is it true for every single individual or is it an average trait of that particular race? Back to my original grizzly analogy - a grizzly is aggressive and dangerous until proven otherwise. That's not racist, that's practical.
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