188 réponses à ce sujet

[Mordokai]

I find the modern political correctness more of a farce than anything. Now just about anything is some sort of "-ist" or "-obic" (racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.). It is common sense to trust the alien and unknown less until it proves itself trustworthy. It's how living things survive. As much as you try to be unbiased and judge everyone equally I will bet you money that you won't go and hug a grizzly tomorrow. Why? Because they're prone to violence. Very prone to violence but my point still stands. Ashley isn't a closet racist, she is just less trusting a person than you are. I find her attitude healthy and logical and even find myself agreeing with most of the things she says. A person is unique - a group is not. Salarians are tech savvy, turians are disciplined, krogans are aggressive and vorchas are stupid. Is it true for every single individual or is it an average trait of that particular race? Back to my original grizzly analogy - a grizzly is aggressive and dangerous until proven otherwise. That's not racist, that's practical.

 

@^ You're applying the same measurements to the sapient and non-sapient species.

 

That's racist, yo!

[zestalyn]

It is common sense to trust the alien and unknown less until it proves itself trustworthy.

A person is unique - a group is not. Salarians are tech savvy, turians are disciplined, krogans are aggressive and vorchas are stupid. Is it true for every single individual or is it an average trait of that particular race? Back to my original grizzly analogy - a grizzly is aggressive and dangerous until proven otherwise. That's not racist, that's practical.

 

I probably would've taken Ash's concerns more seriously if there was a whole group of turians or whatnot aboard the Normandy that I didn't have account of on an individual basis. But I didn't agree with her sentiment about Garrus/Wrex because of exactly this point - people are unique, individuals have more opportunity to prove themselves trustworthy, which I felt every alien crew member had done by the time they were accepted into the crew.

If your Shep had any doubts about these individuals' trustworthiness, might as well not have taken them on in the first place, and like Ash says, accomplish the mission without the aliens. Bioware wrote everyone to have proven their reliability upon meeting Shep, hence, their recruitment. 

[Barquiel]

Most people don't call Ashley racist because of the bear-dog analogy. That's common sense. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack. The council is absolutely right in ME3, Earth has no military or strategic significance that should have placed it at the highest priority (especially over planets like Thessia or Palaven). But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster". I would describe her as a mild racist (at least in ME1/2, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race.

[CynicalShep]

Precisely my point. Why does a sapient being have less rights than a sapient being? That's racist as well. Why am I comparing the two? That's quite racist, is it not?
I don't advocate for throwing rocks at peeps that look differently here, I just think that racism has acquired too broad a definition. Council races have screwed us over because we're not them. That's human(lol) nature, not racism.

[CynicalShep]

I probably would've taken Ash's concerns more seriously if there was a whole group of turians or whatnot aboard the Normandy that I didn't have account of on an individual basis. But I didn't agree with her sentiment about Garrus/Wrex because of exactly this point - people are unique, individuals have more opportunity to prove themselves trustworthy, which I felt every alien crew member had done by the time they were accepted into the crew.
If your Shep had any doubts about these individuals' trustworthiness, might as well not have taken them on in the first place, and like Ash says, accomplish the mission without the aliens. Bioware wrote everyone to have proven their reliability upon meeting Shep, hence, their recruitment.

But she grows to trust them. Tali becomes "like a sister" to her. She initially judges them by the average criteria. Later, their individual qualities become more apparent and she adjusts her views. If you get close enough to a bear and he hugs you will eventually stop being afraid of him. She doesn't hate aliens, she's just wary of them.

[SwobyJ]

I probably would've taken Ash's concerns more seriously if there was a whole group of turians or whatnot aboard the Normandy that I didn't have account of on an individual basis. But I didn't agree with her sentiment about Garrus/Wrex because of exactly this point - people are unique, individuals have more opportunity to prove themselves trustworthy, which I felt every alien crew member had done by the time they were accepted into the crew.

If your Shep had any doubts about these individuals' trustworthiness, might as well not have taken them on in the first place, and like Ash says, accomplish the mission without the aliens. Bioware wrote everyone to have proven their reliability upon meeting Shep, hence, their recruitment. 

 

Well the thrust of ME1 is that Shepard kinda-sorta starts generally Renegade-lite (N7 Soldier) in the pre-ME1 time, but then learns of the Reapers and needs Spectre authority, whether we like that or not. In this time, we're introduced aliens that we can befriend, or at least use as assets in our pursuit of Saren. Red --> Blue. Liara especially can carry this forward.

 

But then the RPGness comes in and we can decide to do whatever we want. Choice is added, consequences happen, Shepard reacts in different ways, etc. But still, ME1 is set up to have us like aliens over time, not hating them.

 

And then they put us in a human-supremacist organization just to shake things up. lawl. We still are on the 'at least tolerating/accepting aliens' track, but now we're reminded of efforts that humanity-alone is undertaking, without alien support.

 

Basically, I don't think Bioware wants players hating aliens, or Shepard expressing such things after a general point in ME1 - but they still give ammo for people to be cautious about aliens, and good reason to ignore, push through, or even kill certain alien characters and species.

 

 

EDIT: After typing this, I wondered how cool it could have been to have, say, a DLC that would cover Shepard's service history, where he starts off pretty outright Renegade (not in morality score, but in personality), but then can establish his more Paragon, Neutral, or Renegade status entering into ME1.

Shepard 'ascends' in perspective regardless of what we want, but going more Renegade slows this ascension significantly, while Paragon accelerates it.

[CynicalShep]

Most people don't call Ashley racist because of the bear-dog analogy. That's common sense. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack. The council is absolutely right in ME3, Earth has no military or strategic significance that should have placed it at the highest priority (especially over planets like Thessia or Palaven). But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist..."Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"
And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster". I would describe her as a mild racist (at least in ME1/2, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race.

The last of the phrases is a bug, it has been overstated on this forum and outside it. Not liking aliens is her prerogative, just like I don't like peanut butter. She doesn't go out and throw rocks at them, she just doesn't have sleepover parties with them. She has no experience with them, you can't expect her to go and start french-kissing turians. She is "patriotic" rather than dismissive of other races. She doesn't oppress them or plot to exterminate them, she's just keeping them at an arms length.

[SwobyJ]

"I can't tell the aliens from the animals", bug or no bug, is really no problem when the alien species are deliberately inspired by animals on Earth. Hello tentacles, avian features, lizards.

 

The only major alien species that worked to outright, in every way, exterminate other aliens was the.. well, the Krogan. And even the Krogan thrived more on battle and war, and conquest of territory, not specific hate of species (until the genophage) - their insults of other species was just part of their obsession with fighting.

 

Oh and there's maybe the Batarians too, but we get signs that most of those we meet are of the outer, more disgruntled demographic.

 

Every other species is just more easily explained as defending their species' interests and survival. Turians had reason to be worried about the Humans expanding so fast, so soon. Humans had reason to be cautious about trusting aliens that they're still just starting to learn about and live with in ME1. This is the generation that has vets from the First Contact War. Give it some decades and that'll change (let's just assume Destroy ending here, and no surprises). Yet ironically, some decades would also more likely uncover nasty secrets about each species, like the Asari keeping Prothian beacons .

[Daemul]

Mass Effect is a fantasy, in reality we would never become that friendly with aliens, especially not in the unrealistically short time frame humans in the MEU do, we would just be too fundamentally different from each other, they wouldn't be humans in costumes like the ME aliens are.

You will find that Ashley's views would be extremely tame compared to the beliefs that most other humans hold about aliens. I can already see the alien scapegoating that will be going on in the mainstream media.

[zestalyn]

lol, woah what. before we go wild, we need to review the formal definition of racism.  it's expressing prejudice/discrimination based the national/ethnic origins of peoples. not animals.  look at the USA's history of racism - it revolves around people treating Africans as if they were not human, but labor animals. there is a difference..just because we don't apply the same measurement, doesn't mean we condone abuse on non-sapient species. the measurement is based on criteria of intelligence. 

 

Most people don't call Ashley racist because of the bear-dog analogy. That's common sense. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack. The council is absolutely right in ME3, Earth has no military or strategic significance that should have placed it at the highest priority (especially over planets like Thessia or Palaven). But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"

And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster". I would describe her as a mild racist (at least in ME1/2, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race.

Damn, good job bringing up those quotes. I almost forgot how terrible those lines are. Ii'm not trying to go out of my way to hate on Ash, but those comments clearly indicate a sense of superiority of humanity over other alien races which is...errr, not okay.
 

But she grows to trust them. Tali becomes "like a sister" to her. She initially judges them by the average criteria. Later, their individual qualities become more apparent and she adjusts her views. If you get close enough to a bear and he hugs you will eventually stop being afraid of him. She doesn't hate aliens, she's just wary of them.

Wariness is fine but I guess its upto subjective opinion whether that's worth second guessing the people who earned your commanding officer's trust, or making those kind of nasty comments, as listed in Barquiel's post. 
 

The last of the phrases is a bug, it has been overstated on this forum and outside it. Not liking aliens is her prerogative, just like I don't like peanut butter. She doesn't go out and throw rocks at them, she just doesn't have sleepover parties with them. She has no experience with them, you can't expect her to go and start french-kissing turians. She is "patriotic" rather than dismissive of other races. She doesn't oppress them or plot to exterminate them, she's just keeping them at an arms length.

Calling other species "monsters" or insinuating them as inferior to the human race is expressing prejudice. 

edit: reminder to try to stick to topic before this becomes a super crazy ashley hate thread with existential debates on humanity vs animals 

[SwobyJ]

Mass Effect is a fantasy, in reality we would never become that friendly with aliens, especially not in the unrealistically short time frame humans in the MEU do, we would just be too fundamentally different from each other, they wouldn't be humans in costumes like the ME aliens are.

You will find that Ashley's views would be extremely tame compared to the beliefs that most other humans hold about aliens. I can already see the alien scapegoating that will be going on in the mainstream media.

 

Yes, Mass Effect uses several contrivances to even make it fit.

-The Citadel and mass relay system encouraging travel but also a place of peaceful communication

-Perhaps the concept of evolution (at least in the Reaper sense) preferring 'humanoid' species, and guiding them into power positions

-Asari stepping in and settling a conflict that would have wrecked humanity

 

 

A lot of humanity has socially evolved past racism, genderism, sexism, and more. Or at least, is now actively attempting to navigate the way past these things. But still, most of this is able to be done due to the concept of common humanity. Many people will take this figuratively, and carry those lessons on towards hypothetical aliens. But many will also take this literally, and a threat to humanity will be treated just like a threat to one's sexuality, race, gender, religious position, etc.

 

Mass Effect expands this into the concept of not just species, but technological integration. Should we use technology *only* as tools, no matter what comes our way and maybe even surprises us about technology? Or should we take a regulated approach towards it, and try to harness technology while encouraging its proliferation? Or should we embrace it and go full steam forward, and let go of caution about the consequences? What if this means new forms of life? New species - organic, synthetic, and somethings akin to both at the same time?

 

We have been faced with 'abominations' and 'husks' throughout 3 games. But were they really? As far as we know so far, they were... but there's been a pattern so far in Mass Effect. Humans hated the turians too. The Council species hated the rachni. Quarians hated the geth. Not all of them, but enough that again, there's a pattern.

 

 

How much do you welcome and encourage, before you lose yourself? How much do you tolerate, accept, or embrace? Sometimes this seems very, very clear. But other times, even very specific matters might have you emotional, reactionary, and fighting for what you consider your way of life, and control over your situations and environment. Cult-ure is very important for this.

[Mordokai]

Most people don't call Ashley racist because of the bear-dog analogy. That's common sense. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack. The council is absolutely right in ME3, Earth has no military or strategic significance that should have placed it at the highest priority (especially over planets like Thessia or Palaven). But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster". I would describe her as a mild racist (at least in ME1/2, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race.

 

Can't you see it for what it really was? Jealousy! Ash felt threatened by Liara from the moment she saw her!

 

On a serious note, yeah, those lines are pretty much why I don't like her. Well, that and other factors I won't expound on.

 

Precisely my point. Why does a sapient being have less rights than a sapient being? That's racist as well. Why am I comparing the two? That's quite racist, is it not?
I don't advocate for throwing rocks at peeps that look differently here, I just think that racism has acquired too broad a definition. Council races have screwed us over because we're not them. That's human(lol) nature, not racism.

 

I'm... having trouble following your logic. So I'm a racist for not trusting grizzly it won't horribly maul me if given a chance?

[SwobyJ]

First Contact War - the first contact between humans and aliens, and it was them suddenly opening fire on human explorers.

 

That's what humans sometimes didn't 'trust aliens'. Can sometimes be 'no fan' of them. We met aliens, and died.

 

Some humans point to the turians, who shot first and didn't ask questions, but were focused on enforcing Citadel law.

 

Other humans point to the asari, who stopped the violence ASAP, and always tried to learn more about humans.

 

We each learn our own lessons.

[David Selig]

Nothing racist or "speciest" about her remarks, it's just common sense. Taking in random aliens you met 5 minutes ago and giving them free access to the most advanced human ship around was downright idiotic. Garrus is OK, he is Turian, but Wrex and Tali? And of course if push comes to shove, every species is likely to look out for its own interest first.

 

 

If your Shep had any doubts about these individuals' trustworthiness, might as well not have taken them on in the first place, and like Ash says, accomplish the mission without the aliens. Bioware wrote everyone to have proven their reliability upon meeting Shep, hence, their recruitment.

Really? How did Wrex prove his reliability? By being a thug for hire who murdered Fist against Shepard's wishes?

[Han Shot First]

Ashley ascribes it to humans too. It's just a survival instinct for any species that wants to weather a disaster: look to your own species first

Altruism isn't a survival trait.

 

I think people often miss the bolded bit whenever this is brought up. 

 

Humans, including Shepard, are guilty of the same behavior. While there is a continent sized inferno raging on Palaven, Shepard is busy telling the Turians he needs their ships to save Earth.

 

Also while Shepard or Udina might not want to hear it, the Council is right in initially denying fleets for Earth. Earth was already a lost planet with far less strategic importance than either Palaven or Thessia. Palaven was still contested and Thessia had yet to be invaded. Rather than throwing their fleets away in an ill-conceived counterattack on the Sol System, it would make far greater sense to concentrate the Council's resources on holding Palaven and preventing an advance towards Thessia.

[Mordokai]

Nothing racist or "speciest" about her remarks, it's just common sense. Taking in random aliens you met 5 minutes ago and giving them free access to the most advanced human ship around was downright idiotic. Garrus is OK, he is Turian, but Wrex and Tali? And of course if push comes to shove, every species is likely to look out for its own interest first.

 

What does one expect from Wrex? He's a bounty hunter, from a race typically seen as primitive. If memory serves, Mordin scoffs at the idea of krogan scientists in general and Wrex is just about furthest thing from scientist one can imagine. I highly doubt he poses any security risk to the Normandy, as far as tech is concerned. And, once again, to the best of my memory, which is a little faulty at times, Ash never expresses her concerns about Tali, the quarian mechanic, who spends most of her time next to the Tantalus core and expressed an interest in it. Yet, she berates Shepard about Garrus, who is from the race who co-developed Normandy.

 

I won't go as far as to call Ash racist. But she is certainly very selective in her dislikes and I don't buy the whole "cautious" thing.

 

And yes, every species will look out for itself. Why does humanity get so uppity about it, when we're no better? As Han Shot First pointed out, Council was quite in the right for denying their fleets and yet, few people seem to look any further than "hurdur, them aliens screwed us again!"

[CynicalShep]

And that's why I said that modern political correctness is a farce. There is nothing wrong with being open-minded but there has to be a degree of logic in there. You keep saying that we need to treat sapient ad non-sapient difference when that is clearly preferential treatment and bias. Salarians are on average a lot smarter than humans. Would a salarian treating a human the way we treat animals be racism? If so, why? The difference between our IQs and that of a monkey is actually not that big, and yet here we are, considering them inferior. A Krogan would be somewhere in between. Do we treat him like we'd treat another human or do we treat him like an animal? Where do we draw the line? Can someone define "speciesism"?

[CynicalShep]

What does one expect from Wrex? He's a bounty hunter, from a race typically seen as primitive. If memory serves, Mordin scoffs at the idea of krogan scientists in general and Wrex is just about furthest thing from scientist one can imagine. I highly doubt he poses any security risk to the Normandy, as far as tech is concerned. And, once again, to the best of my memory, which is a little faulty at times, Ash never expresses her concerns about Tali, the quarian mechanic, who spends most of her time next to the Tantalus core and expressed an interest in it. Yet, she berates Shepard about Garrus, who is from the race who co-developed Normandy.
 
I won't go as far as to call Ash racist. But she is certainly very selective in her dislikes and I don't buy the whole "cautious" thing.
 
And yes, every species will look out for itself. Why does humanity get so uppity about it, when we're no better? As Han Shot First pointed out, Council was quite in the right for denying their fleets and yet, few people seem to look any further than "hurdur, them aliens screwed us again!"

Garrus also happens to be of a race that almost wiped out humanity a few years ago and there's an understandable animosity between the species.

[TurianRebel212]

Ash racism wasn't that big of deal to me. 

 

What was a little bit odd and very, very unprofessional of her was on Mar's and stuff. 

 

Questioning Shepard's allegiance and basically calling Shepard out as an indoctrinated Cerberus sleeper agent......

 

 

I mean she, or anyone else, has no reason to believe anything of the kind about Shepard. It was just over the top and silly. 

[SwobyJ]

Ash racism wasn't that big of deal to me. 

 

What was a little bit odd and very, very unprofessional of her was on Mar's and stuff. 

 

Questioning Shepard's allegiance and basically calling Shepard out as an indoctrinated Cerberus sleeper agent......

 

 

I mean she, or anyone else, has no reason to believe anything of the kind about Shepard. It was just over the top and silly. 

 

Yeah he's totally not a Cerberus sleeper agent. Sheesh.

 

[Mordokai]

Garrus also happens to be of a race that almost wiped out humanity a few years ago and there's an understandable animosity between the species.

 

If you let animosities fester for some thirty-odd years, good for you. I prefer to let them go.

[SwobyJ]

If you let animosities fester for some thirty-odd years, good for you. I prefer to let them go.

 

That's a nice sentiment I try to follow. But I mean, my boyfriend is Lebanese.. some stuff is just crazy. (EDIT: By this I mean grudges and how they continue, regardless of those who want to let it go)

[KrrKs]

Most of what I wanted to say has already been mentioned.

 

So I just nitpick on this:

But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
[...]

And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster".

 

-The "bug eyed monster" was imo not directed at Liara or anyone in special. It was supposed to be an analogy similar to the bear one

-The "jealous" part afaik only comes up when you have unclear romance options on both Liara and Ashley, so i guess she is indeed kind of jealous.

 

Also, to conclude with dialogue from "The Undiscovered Country":

-"We believe that every person has inalienable human-rights."

-"Human rights? Even the term is racist!"

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Garrus also happens to be of a race that almost wiped out humanity a few years ago and there's an understandable animosity between the species.

Almost wiped out humanity? You mean instigated a small skirmish that resulted in 623 human deaths, almost all of which are military?

 

Questioning Shepard's allegiance and basically calling Shepard out as an indoctrinated Cerberus sleeper agent......

 

I mean she, or anyone else, has no reason to believe anything of the kind about Shepard. It was just over the top and silly. 

Not sure if serious....

There was that whole thing with Cerberus a while back. Where Shepard worked with them, got a ship from them, and generally was associated with them. 

 

[DeinonSlayer]

Sorry, find that first comment problematic, cause what do you know, alot of times i t does come down to race. For wayyyyy too many people, looking like a gang member is the same as simply being black or latino, and look at all the crap that ensues because of that. I see it happen all the time to my black/latino firends from NYC's stop-and-frisk policy, to when they get pulled over by the cops, sometimes with a gun to his face, despite being clean and a bloody Ivy League student. And uh, hate to go there,but there's cases like Trayvon Martin...Sorry if it's just blustering to you, but cultural generalizations do tend to be apart of racial profiling, and it becomes problematic to alooot of people who are not criminals. Walk on whatever side of the street you want, but that doesn't mean you should discriminate people.

Anyways, just because Ashley happens to understand the basic notions of survival instinct, doesn't mean she gets a pat on the back for believing the alien crew members should be treated differently just because they're not human. I get it, they're not Alliance, but it's a Spectre's ship and what in the world are one turian and krogan going to do? Back to OP, her "human nationalist" view doesn't do much for what needs to get done in ME3, and therefore I disagree with her view.

I hate to dredge it up because I know it's a sore point with some, but I agree with the Trayvon verdict, and would do so if the races involved were reversed. The back of Zimmerman's shirt was wet. The knees of Martin's pants were wet. That alone tells us who was on top of whom. Zimmerman approached when he shouldn't have, Martin attacked when he shouldn't have, proceeding to mount and pound Zimmerman's head on bare concrete. This doesn't even stray into the territory of "Stand Your Ground." This was straight-up self defense. Tragic? Yes. Avoidable? Yes. Criminal? No. I'm sure there are people here who would disagree with that. Frankly, many in the "Justice for Trayvon" brigade and some in our own media acted like a lynch mob, and we sure as hell didn't need the President of the United States fanning the flames.

I can see both sides in "stop and frisk," and I can't say I'm a fan. I would be curious what the base cause of the drop of crime in NYC over the last few decades has been, though.

That last paragraph is a very weak argument. It only takes one saboteur to wreak havoc, one thief to sell military secrets. Her concerns were justified. Just pick the "You're out of line!" option - that's what I do. I'd have liked an option to agree with her bear-and-dog analogy, honestly. It's nothing more than warranted (and, in ME3, validated) caution regarding the acts of foreign governments, and unfamiliar individuals whom she lightens up on over time. She and Garrus would've made a good couple IMO.

Bear in mind it's possible, at the time of Garrus and Wrex' recruitment, that all they've done to show loyalty was turn up at the elevator at C-Sec and ask to join. You can avoid recruiting one or the other altogether, so there isn't necessarily a basis for trust at the time Ash asks that question.