188 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

What does one expect from Wrex? He's a bounty hunter, from a race typically seen as primitive. If memory serves, Mordin scoffs at the idea of krogan scientists in general and Wrex is just about furthest thing from scientist one can imagine. I highly doubt he poses any security risk to the Normandy, as far as tech is concerned. And, once again, to the best of my memory, which is a little faulty at times, Ash never expresses her concerns about Tali, the quarian mechanic, who spends most of her time next to the Tantalus core and expressed an interest in it. Yet, she berates Shepard about Garrus, who is from the race who co-developed Normandy.

 

 

Of all the alien squadmates I think Tali is the only one who potentially posed a security risk. As you said, the Normandy was co-developed between the Alliance and the Turian Hierarchy. Obviously Garrus isn't a security risk at all, as any technology used in its construction was either Turian in the first place, or shared during the Normadny project. Ditto for Liara. While not involved in the construction of the Normandy, the Asari Republics are the founder of the Citadel Council and closely allied with the Turians. Its doubtful that there was much tech (if any) involved in the Normandy's construction that the Asari already wouldn't have had access to. Wrex is no scientist or engineer and comes from a species that has neither a fleet or shipyards.

 

Tali on the other hand is an engineer who is capable of understanding the technology involved, and she comes from a species that is not part of the Citadel Council. 

 

I thought it was somewhat amusing in ME3 when you encounter a Quarian stealth ship. What are the chances that a species that mostly flies cast offs from other species and 300 year old space junk patched up with duct tape and bubble gum, would develop stealth technology independently from the Council? And coincidentally, just a couple years after a Quarian engineer had hands on experience with it while serving aboard on Alliance ship? 

 

Tali might be fanatically loyal to Shepard, but thats still a distant second to her loyalty to the Migrant Fleet. She pulled a Snowden.

 

I'm also somewhat surprised that the Geth don't have stealth ships. Legion couldn't hide his knowledge of the workings of the Normandy SR2 from the rest of the consensus even if he tried to, because the Geth are a hive mind.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

/snip

I can see both sides in "stop and frisk," and I can't say I'm a fan. I would be curious what the base cause of the drop of crime in NYC over the last few decades has been, though.

That last paragraph is a very weak argument. It only takes one saboteur to wreak havoc, one thief to sell military secrets. Her concerns were justified. Just pick the "You're out of line!" option - that's what I do. I'd have liked an option to agree with her bear-and-dog analogy, honestly. It's nothing more than warranted (and, in ME3, validated) caution regarding the acts of foreign governments, and unfamiliar individuals whom she lightens up on over time. She and Garrus would've made a good couple IMO.

Bear in mind it's possible, at the time of Garrus and Wrex' recruitment, that all they've done to show loyalty was turn up at the elevator at C-Sec and ask to join. You can avoid recruiting one or the other altogether, so there isn't necessarily a basis for trust at the time Ash asks that question.

Actually, a major cause in the crime rate is just crimes going unreported by the police to make themselves look good. New York is really not a good city. 

Back on topic, there isn't much to be worried about, though, at least with Wrex and Garrus. Who's Garrus gonna any stolen technology to? The Turians already have the stealth technology, and Garrus is ex-Turian Special Forces and former C-Sec. He isn't committing any sabotage. And Wrex? What would a mercenary, gain by doing either espionage or sabotage? He's clearly not on board for sabotage, his picking-up was completely random, and he sure as hell doesn't have the technical capabilities to recover and sell the drive core technology to the Shadow Broker. 

Admittedly, Tali is a bit suspicious, but just having one conversation with her proves otherwise. 

Ashley's problem is that she's seeing them as Turian, Krogan, and Quarian, not Garrus, Wrex, and Tali. But what's great is that she leaves this viewpoint, and grows as a person. 

[SwobyJ]

Han we're not supposed to learn of Tali's betrayal until Shepard wakes up after finding out he's been in a virtual/indoctrination/etc haze and that his whole crew has been scummy all along, Liaranezia, EDIOverlord, and TraynorBrooks included.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Han Shot First
I wouldn't trust Liara just because she's an Asari; that's as much a racial judgment as negatively discriminating for the same reason. How, exactly, did she already know who Saren is when we first meet her, for example?

I'd say there are legitimate reasons to see all four of the alien squadmates as security risks, to be honest - and there are reasons to find them all trustworthy. Tali, for instance, could have returned to her fleet and vanished, but instead ducked assassination attempts halfway across the galaxy to try to turn over the evidence to the Turian embassy, only to be stopped by a racist clerk who couldn't be bothered to even call a doctor for her when she had been shot. I'd have liked to keep Liara bottled up and subjected her to more questioning before jumping straight into "Sure, you can jump into my brain and poke around all you'd like." Plot didn't allow that, though. I'd have liked to keep Legion behind that barrier longer, too - even renegade shep is awfully quick to drop the barrier and slap a gun in his hand.

I wonder if it would have been a good change to swap the order of the IFF retrieval and Collector Ship missions. Recruit Legion a bit earlier, but a greater risk to the crew, whom you can't go after until you get the nav data.

[Pressedcat]

I hate to dredge it up because I know it's a sore point with some, but I agree with the Trayvon verdict, and would do so if the races involved were reversed. The back of Zimmerman's shirt was wet. The knees of Martin's pants were wet. That alone tells us who was on top of whom. Zimmerman approached when he shouldn't have, Martin attacked when he shouldn't have, proceeding to mount and pound Zimmerman's head on bare concrete. This doesn't even stray into the territory of "Stand Your Ground." This was straight-up self defense. Tragic? Yes. Avoidable? Yes. Criminal? No. I'm sure there are people here who would disagree with that. Frankly, many in the "Justice for Trayvon" brigade and some in our own media acted like a lynch mob, and we sure as hell didn't need the President of the United States fanning the flames.

I can see both sides in "stop and frisk," and I can't say I'm a fan. I would be curious what the base cause of the drop of crime in NYC over the last few decades has been, though.

That last paragraph is a very weak argument. It only takes one saboteur to wreak havoc, one thief to sell military secrets. Her concerns were justified. Just pick the "You're out of line!" option - that's what I do. I'd have liked an option to agree with her bear-and-dog analogy, honestly. It's nothing more than warranted (and, in ME3, validated) caution regarding the acts of foreign governments, and unfamiliar individuals whom she lightens up on over time. She and Garrus would've made a good couple IMO.

Bear in mind it's possible, at the time of Garrus and Wrex' recruitment, that all they've done to show loyalty was turn up at the elevator at C-Sec and ask to join. You can avoid recruiting one or the other altogether, so there isn't necessarily a basis for trust at the time Ash asks that question.

 

Perhaps it's better if we just steer away from conversations about real world situations; especially such potentially emotive ones in which we have absolutely no first hand knowledge on which to base judgement calls. Otherwise this thread is more than likely to just get locked.

 

Back on topic, can anyone supply the vid clips of Ashley? Its been a while since I played ME1 so I can't really remember the context in which she said the things she did. Her wariness could be due to wishing to follow correct military procedure to maintain security or down to personal prejudices due to her family history. From what I recall, it was probably a dash of both. 

[andy6915]

Of all the alien squadmates I think Tali is the only one who potentially posed a security risk. As you said, the Normandy was co-developed between the Alliance and the Turian Hierarchy. Obviously Garrus isn't a security risk at all, as any technology used in its construction was either Turian in the first place, or shared during the Normadny project. Ditto for Liara. While not involved in the construction of the Normandy, the Asari Republics are the founder of the Citadel Council and closely allied with the Turians. Its doubtful that there was much tech (if any) involved in the Normandy's construction that the Asari already wouldn't have had access to. Wrex is no scientist or engineer and comes from a species that has neither a fleet or shipyards.

 

Tali on the other hand is an engineer who is capable of understanding the technology involved, and she comes from a species that is not part of the Citadel Council. 

 

I thought it was somewhat amusing in ME3 when you encounter a Quarian stealth ship. What are the chances that a species that mostly flies cast offs from other species and 300 year old space junk patched up with duct tape and bubble gum, would develop stealth technology independently from the Council? And coincidentally, just a couple years after a Quarian engineer had hands on experience with it while serving aboard on Alliance ship? 

 

Tali might be fanatically loyal to Shepard, but thats still a distant second to her loyalty to the Migrant Fleet. She pulled a Snowden.

 

I'm also somewhat surprised that the Geth don't have stealth ships. Legion couldn't hide his knowledge of the workings of the Normandy SR2 from the rest of the consensus even if he tried to, because the Geth are a hive mind.

I agree, regardless of the writers there's no way Tali didn't take her knowledge of the Normandy back to the fleet. You know what my guess is? If you don't give her the Geth data in ME1 for her pilgrimage gift, Normany's drive core and stealth systems specs are what she brought back to the fleet as her big "I'm a daughter of an admiral" pilgrimage gift. She does it anyway even if you give her the data so she just gives both as her gift in that case. What other pilgrimage gift do you think she could have used if denied the Geth data? As Mordin says on Omega, theory fits evidence.

 

Thing is I don't hate her for it though. By ME3 every race in the galaxy has figured out the stealth system by then. Besides, I can't really blame her. I mean you gain lots of knowledge about amazing tech that would help your people, and you wouldn't make use of it? No one of any race in the galaxy wouldn't.

[SwobyJ]

Tali not telling Shepard about this is like Miranda not telling Shepard about the clone.

 

So many ... issues.

[Display Name Owner]

They were more nationalist than racist, and I don't think any of it was unreasonable tbh. I actually kind of dislike that one of Shepard's responses is "sounds like racism to me". Although IIRC the other response is "Yeah, they're just waiting to stab us in the back", which sounds equally stupid. 

 

But anyway, yeah, that's basically the whole point of a nation isn't it, to look after the interests of its own people? So why should anyone be surprised or even offended that every government puts its own species first? Unless they do it to the extent of blind idiocy, say like, I dunno... Cerberus? Where what they do is actively hurting the other species and moreover doing Humanity no big favours with their view that Humans somehow deserve the top spot.

The Council and species leaders were never really unreasonable tbh, though you wouldn't think so with the overarching theme of 'military good, politics bad'. They had their own borders to defend and their own interests to look after. Yeah, the Asari could have revealed the Beacon sooner just in case it was relevant (which they had little reason to believe at the time IIRC), and maybe the Salarians were fooling themselves trying to stay out of it because Sur'Kesh hadn't been attacked, but they all get too much flak for doing their jobs really.

[andy6915]

Tali not telling Shepard about this is like Miranda not telling Shepard about the clone.

 

So many ... issues.

By the way, Tali didn't betray Shepard by sharing that Normandy tech. Shepard was dead. Kinda hard to betray someone's trust when they aren't even alive anymore. So seeing as Tali has no loyalty to the Alliance outside of Shepard, sharing that data wasn't betraying anyone if Shepard is no longer a factor. As for why she didn't tell Shepard later... Guilt? I know I would feel super guilty about it after learning the person I was still loyal to was actually still alive and would hate me if they found out. That would be filed under the "dirty secret that must never be told" category.

[DeinonSlayer]

By the way, Tali didn't betray Shepard by sharing that Normandy tech. Shepard was dead. Kinda hard to betray someone's trust when they aren't even alive anymore. So seeing as Tali has no loyalty to the Alliance outside of Shepard, sharing that data wasn't betraying anyone if Shepard is no longer a factor. As for why she didn't tell Shepard later... Guilt? I know I would feel super guilty about it after learning the person I was still loyal to was actually still alive and would hate me if they found out. That would be filed under the "dirty secret that must never be told" category.

Frankly, I'd be disappointed if she didn't - it serves the war effort. I don't see anyone getting on Garrus' case for sharing the Thanix plans with Cerberus. Were we operating under different circumstances, it'd be more of a problem, but during a Reaper invasion the last thing we need is to get all litigious about a patent. We're routinely breaking standing law with that Spectre terminal - the violations of law to get angry about are the ones that hinder the war effort (hiding the beacon), not those which aid it (arming the Liveships - I question if it was even illegal).

[Barquiel]

The last of the phrases is a bug, it has been overstated on this forum and outside it. Not liking aliens is her prerogative, just like I don't like peanut butter. She doesn't go out and throw rocks at them, she just doesn't have sleepover parties with them. She has no experience with them, you can't expect her to go and start french-kissing turians. She is "patriotic" rather than dismissive of other races. She doesn't oppress them or plot to exterminate them, she's just keeping them at an arms length.

 

That's why I would describe her as a mild racist, but nowhere near Kai Leng or TIM. Yes, some of her concerns are understandable (even though it bothers me to no end that she complains about Wrex and Garrus...but she has obviously no qualms about Tali in the engine room! I'd even agree with her here).

But imagine if somebody IRL told you "I'm not a fan of black people". I'd think that's racist (and not patriotic)...and simply not the same as "I'm not a fan of peanut butter". And really, Mass Effect doesn't have hundreds of different alien races like Star trek for example. You might expect that she knows at least the citadel races (including the keepers).

 

But just like Pressly she did overcome her bigotry at least. 

[SwobyJ]

By the way, Tali didn't betray Shepard by sharing that Normandy tech. Shepard was dead. Kinda hard to betray someone's trust when they aren't even alive anymore. So seeing as Tali has no loyalty to the Alliance outside of Shepard, sharing that data wasn't betraying anyone if Shepard is no longer a factor. As for why she didn't tell Shepard later... Guilt? I know I would feel super guilty about it after learning the person I was still loyal to was actually still alive and would hate me if they found out. That would be filed under the "dirty secret that must never be told" category.

 

Man there seems to be a bunch of characters with 'guilt' yet nothing showing of it.

[andy6915]

That's why I would describe her as a mild racist, but nowhere near Kai Leng or TIM. Yes, some of her concerns are understandable (even though it bothers me to no end that she complains about Wrex and Garrus...but she has obviously no qualms about Tali in the engine room! I'd even agree with her here).

But imagine if somebody IRL told you "I'm not a fan of black people". I'd think that's racist (and not patriotic)...and simply not the same as "I'm not a fan of peanut butter". And really, Mass Effect doesn't have hundreds of different alien races like Star trek for example. You might expect that she knows at least the citadel races (including the keepers).

Better yet, imagine if someone in real life said this to you because you're in a relationship with a black person and they're jealous- "make nice with the bug eyed black people"... Sound racist enough?

[SwobyJ]

Hey man, if someone wants to have sex with a Rachni Queen, that isn't my business.

[andy6915]

Hey man, if someone wants to have sex with a Rachni Queen, that isn't my business.

Is that any weirder than doing an Elcor? I mean that's like doing a rhino or a cow or something. Or a Hanar? Real life Japanese tentacle sex right there.

[DeinonSlayer]

Is that any weirder than doing an Elcor? I mean that's like doing a rhino or a cow or something. Or a Hanar? Real life Japanese tentacle sex right there.

"Those hanar-asari porn games are really nasty."

Hey man, if someone wants to have sex with a Rachni Queen, that isn't my business.

Giggity?

[andy6915]

Seriously though, can you imagine Elcor sex? "With orgasmic pleasure: Yes. Harder, faster. Yes. Yes. Yes. Keep going. With ecstasy: This feels amazing. I'm almost there, keep going."

 

Their lack of emotion would make it the funniest freaking thing ever.

[andy6915]

Oh, and relevant to my last post a minute ago.

 

[DeinonSlayer]

This thread is so locked...

[andy6915]

This thread is so locked...

Yeah, I'm going to drop that topic now. I like this thread, don't want it locked.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I remember back in the day when Ashley was being berated for being racist, but all of her remarks about not trusting the aliens and how the aliens only look out for themselves so we should do the same thing as well. Whether she lives or dies, I feel like she gets the last laugh. The council refuses to help humans since they see Earth as a meatshield to slow down the reapers and don't want to waste their resources to help Earth. The Asari hiding crucial artifacts and withholding information regarding the reapers. Looking back now, all of Ashley's worries come true. Do people still disagree with her belief and hate her for her view or at least understand her point of view a little?

 

Ashley's worries may have been ultimately true, but I feel her intent was definitely in the wrong place. 

 

She was right for the wrong reasons. 

 

Ultimately, I, the Cerberus-supporting Shepard, got the last laugh over her when I put her down like the dog she is.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This thread is so locked...

 

And I never made an appearance...

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

And I never made an appearance...

Neither did Bob. He's been absent for a while. 

[DeinonSlayer]

Why kill Ashley Massive?

Hoo boy, now you've done it...