188 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I really hope BW either hires a consultant and listens to them or stays away from writing about the military.

 

I can do it for them. Hell, I basically already do it here for free.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

'Tis in times like this when I truly realize how unremarkable I am.

 

 

You will never be as cool as this grainy pic I took.

 

Being stupid is hard work:

 

[CynicalShep]

 
You will never be as cool as this grainy pic I took.
 
Being stupid is hard work:
 

I was going to show you my beard but the screen on my phone cracked when I tried to take a picture.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It wasn't racist, it was realist, a long standing political philosophy that assumes the worst of everyone, because games of politics and power bring out the worst in individual people.

 

And honestly, her fears aren't really unfounded either. This same galactic council who humanity is suppose to trust allowed a genocide and long-lasting genocide plague of two intelligent species under their rule, didn't offer any aid to humanity in the first contact war and would have allowed the turians to wipe humanity off the face of the map, then left humanity to fend for itself against pirates, raiders, slavers, and an entire species covert and military operations.

 

What exactly has the council done for humanity besides chastised it, then left it to fend for itself? And then we come to the people we actually have on board. We have a turian who worked for a division of the council, a krogan mercenary who we know can be uncontrollable and violent, and a quarian whose people have the largest fleet, all on the most advanced military vessel ever designed, being given free reign to study all of its designs, weaknesses, and even its drive core, the very thing that makes it so advanced. To someone who is of the realist school of philosophy, this is akin to the united states inviting the head of military for north korea, china, and iran to take a tour of our newest and most advanced naval vessel avaliable, complete with schematic layouts and everything.

 

Just here you go, unfettered access, help yourselves and your cameras to take as much as you'd like.

 

Calling her concerns racist is a heavy misnomer.

[Rusted Cage]

I think Ashley in Mass Effect serves a very important story telling role as she represents ideas and viewpoints that the player may not have thought of or maybe can relate to in some way. Without that human-centric point of view early on in the game, I don't think the introduction to The Citadel would make much sense.

 

Also, her point of view is very old school sci-fi, something that makes perfect sense to the spirit and tone of the game. It's only as the story goes on that we find out her reasons for her views.

 

I think she's always been spot-on, especially in retrospect. It took Shepard - an exceptional person - to get all the races to work together.

 

If ME was real and I was Shep I'd probably never say it, never have goals that were anti-alien, but I'm damned sure I'd have a contingency that backs up her fears precisely.

[KaiserShep]

And honestly, her fears aren't really unfounded either. This same galactic council who humanity is suppose to trust allowed a genocide and long-lasting genocide plague of two intelligent species under their rule, didn't offer any aid to humanity in the first contact war and would have allowed the turians to wipe humanity off the face of the map, then left humanity to fend for itself against pirates, raiders, slavers, and an entire species covert and military operations.

 

What exactly has the council done for humanity besides chastised it, then left it to fend for itself?

 

It's funny too, because from the start, councilor Sparatus is a grade-A assh*le about it. You save a colony from a corrupt corporation and a weird alien plant, and he will make some snide remark about Shepard's motives. One thing that stuck in the back of my mind is how the entire council seems unimpressed about the fact that some random dock worker on Eden Prime not only knew Saren by name, but saw him kill another Spectre, dismissed simply because he was traumatized, as if that would magically make him know of Saren specifically or just hallucinate the entire thing. Of course, I can pass my frustration on to Shepard as well, because there should have been some way to point this out. Even if the Council still stuck their fingers in their scaly ears and said "la la la we're not listening, human", it would only put greater emphasis on their blindness and stupidity.

[Excella Gionne]

It's funny too, because from the start, councilor Sparatus is a grade-A assh*le about it. You save a colony from a corrupt corporation and a weird alien plant, and he will make some snide remark about Shepard's motives. One thing that stuck in the back of my mind is how the entire council seems unimpressed about the fact that some random dock worker on Eden Prime not only knew Saren by name, but saw him kill another Spectre, dismissed simply because he was traumatized, as if that would magically make him know of Saren specifically or just hallucinate the entire thing.

Another reason why it's best to let 'em burn on the Destiny's Ascension. 

[Mordokai]

Another reason why it's best to let 'em burn on the Destiny's Ascension. 

 

Hey, Tevos is one sexy momma. Besides, I like to imagine Collectors are having much the same problems like Shepard does.

 

[KaiserShep]

Another reason why it's best to let 'em burn on the Destiny's Ascension. 

 

Tempting, but despite all this, I still save them. The story just doesn't seem right to me leaving the Destiny Ascension to be destroyed with them in it.

[themikefest]

Another reason why it's best to let 'em burn on the Destiny's Ascension. 

It is. I've never saved them in any of my playthroughs nor will I ever save them in future playthroughs.

[AsheraII]

I never even considered them racist, just cautious. Ask about anyone on the street, and they'll tell you the exact same things about tradesmen, trailerpark residents and politicians. The anti-racism movement went completely out of whack the past 20 years. While racism is definitely a problem, people abuse the term so much, it doesn't even make me blink anymore when I see or hear it, and nine out of ten times I get disgusted because the case wasn't about racism at all, but the term gets used as a "get out of jail for free" card.

[zestalyn]

 

And that's why I said that modern political correctness is a farce. There is nothing wrong with being open-minded but there has to be a degree of logic in there. You keep saying that we need to treat sapient ad non-sapient difference when that is clearly preferential treatment and bias. Salarians are on average a lot smarter than humans. Would a salarian treating a human the way we treat animals be racism? If so, why? The difference between our IQs and that of a monkey is actually not that big, and yet here we are, considering them inferior. A Krogan would be somewhere in between. Do we treat him like we'd treat another human or do we treat him like an animal? Where do we draw the line? Can someone define "speciesism"?

Animals don't have advanced social development. They dont have written communication, or the ability to interpret or manifest their intellect in the form of culture. 

 

snip

 

sorry to dwell on that topic but fyi, im not talking about the technicalities of Trayvon's case, but the fact that Zimmerman most likely acted on certain criteria which is why alot of people refer to the case as an example of racial profiling. alot of blacks/latinos i know have a fear of walking down the street in certain clothes and being mistaken for someone incriminating. i brought up stop-and-frisk not to talk about its ethics or effectiveness, but to bring up how many individual cops abuse the policy based on racial profiling 

anyways yes, my first playthrough I told her she was out of line. As for the rest of what you're saying, yea i get it, but I agree with BioticGod/Massively regarding the sentiment behind her concerns. 

Id like to point out to ppl in this thread that I think we're misunderstanding exactly where this whole thread topic is coming from. Cause I agree with Barquiel that the extent of Ash's racism lies more in her personal views, not the actual bear analogy she brought up. The bear analogy was merely a prediction of what is basic survivalism, i dont think anyone here is trying to deny that. I think where we might really be differing is if whether she was even more compelled to bring it up to Shepard because of her relatively condescending views regarding alien species. As Massively said, it's like she was right for the wrong reasons/with the wrong intent. Personally, thats what i saw and my Shep was glad to dismiss her concern. back to OP ME3 shows that her view makes for a shortsighted method of approach that you have to take the risk of moving past to get impossible things done. 

 

[Raizo]

I've never really had an issue with Ashley's spiciest remarks in ME1 even though disagreed with her because I understood where she was coming from. It's very easy to forget but when you first meet her she is an Alliance soldier who has pretty much never had the opportunity to interact with an alien species before, of course she she isn't going to think much of them because she knows nothing about them beyond the rumours she has heard ( once again it is easy to forget but at the beginning of ME1 humanity is aggressively
trying to get a seat on the council and they are being repeatedly shut down down so a lot of human politicians and Alliance brass are not happy with they way they are being treated by the Asari, the Turians and the Salarians, a lot of this negativity would filter down to Ashley whose family has deep Alliance roots).

And as Rubios pointed out it is human nature for people to stick to their own and to look out for their own, since Ashley has no experience with other species the only other thing she can assume is these aliens would react no better than humanity at its worse.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Tempting, but despite all this, I still save them. The story just doesn't seem right to me leaving the Destiny Ascension to be destroyed with them in it.

 

Three people? Sparatus was the ass. Tevos the mediator. Valern the thinker. It's not about three people. It's the most powerful ship in the fleet. There are 10,000 lives on board. You lose a wolfpack, and still take down Sovereign.

[Excella Gionne]

Tempting, but despite all this, I still save them. The story just doesn't seem right to me leaving the Destiny Ascension to be destroyed with them in it.

I always save them, but I do like the attitude of the Turian Councilor, Quentius and the Salarian Councilor, Esheel. Sparatus and Valern are quite annoying. Irissa is definitely a dumpsterfire.

[Han Shot First]

I don't really consider Ashley racist either. 

 

She is a bit politically incorrect perhaps, but I don't think she is a bigot. If you take her to the Terra Firma rally she is more hostile towards them than even your alien squadmates, and she makes it clear that she considers their racist political platform to be distasteful. And of course she hates Cerberus. Additionally in one of the squaddie elevator banters she'll tell Tali that she hopes her contributions against Saren are recognized and help do away with some of the discrimination against the Quarians.

 

The only comment Ashley makes that borders on racist is the 'bug-eyed monsters' quip. Taken out of context it might seem racist, but if you listen to the entire conversation its clear that petty jealousy rather than racial animus is what motivated that outburst. I think she's guilty of being insecure, losing her temper, and putting her foot in her mouth...but not of racism.

[KaiserShep]

Three people? Sparatus was the ass. Tevos the mediator. Valern the thinker. It's not about three people. It's the most powerful ship in the fleet. There are 10,000 lives on board. You lose a wolfpack, and still take down Sovereign.

 

Well, I did say it was only tempting, but yeah, that's pretty much why I don't leave them to die.

[CynicalShep]

@zestalyn
Those are man made standards of sapience. What makes you think that aliens have a similar mindset? All animals communicate, we're just too stupid to understand them. Dolphins could be smarter than us for all we know and I've met people who are stupider than most dogs. Why must intelligence be measured judged on one's ability to write or speak English? We can't predict earthquakes to this day - just about all animals can. We are arguably the smartest race on Earth but that doesn't give us the right to discount all other intelligence on the simple basis that it priorities different things.

[Barquiel]

It's funny too, because from the start, councilor Sparatus is a grade-A assh*le about it. You save a colony from a corrupt corporation and a weird alien plant, and he will make some snide remark about Shepard's motives. One thing that stuck in the back of my mind is how the entire council seems unimpressed about the fact that some random dock worker on Eden Prime not only knew Saren by name, but saw him kill another Spectre, dismissed simply because he was traumatized, as if that would magically make him know of Saren specifically or just hallucinate the entire thing. Of course, I can pass my frustration on to Shepard as well, because there should have been some way to point this out. Even if the Council still stuck their fingers in their scaly ears and said "la la la we're not listening, human", it would only put greater emphasis on their blindness and stupidity.

I guess the problem was that the dock worker was questioned by soldiers under the command of Anderson...and the councilors were sceptical because of the history between Saren and Anderson.

[CynicalShep]

Hey, Tevos is one sexy momma. Besides, I like to imagine Collectors are having much the same problems like Shepard does.
 

Yes, Tevos is quite the MILF

[KaiserShep]

Pigs could be smarter than some people, but pigs are delicious so it doesn't matter.

 

I guess the problem was that the dock worker was questioned by soldiers under the command of Anderson...and the councilors were sceptical because of the history between Saren and Anderson.

 

Perhaps, but that wasn't the basis of their dismissal, if I'm to take the salarian councilor's word seriously. If they're going to beat around the bush and keep their ideas to themselves, then there was no point in even going to that senseless hearing in the first place.

[jtav]

I wish desperately there was some sort of middle path between "rah rah Council" and outright racism and lust for power. I object to the Council on moral grounds based on past behavior, not that humans don't have a big enough piece of the pie.

[zestalyn]

@zestalyn
Those are man made standards of sapience. What makes you think that aliens have a similar mindset? All animals communicate, we're just too stupid to understand them. Dolphins could be smarter than us for all we know and I've met people who are stupider than most dogs. Why must intelligence be measured judged on one's ability to write or speak English? We can't predict earthquakes to this day - just about all animals can. We are arguably the smartest race on Earth but that doesn't give us the right to discount all other intelligence on the simple basis that it priorities different things.

What i explained answered your question about why salarians should consider other sapient life forms as equals. They may make better scientists but their modes of culture are comparable to the rest of us. As for why our kind of life forms have established 'dominance' is for the same reason we can consider ourselves the top of the food chain. Besides I dont know where youre getting the idea anyone is discounting animal rights just because of the legal definition of racism. Yes, it is because of our man made standards of sapience, that animals do not qualify as being victims of racism Animal abuse, yes. Racism, no. 

[CynicalShep]

Pigs could be smarter than some people, but pigs are delicious so it doesn't matter.
 

Satire this might be but it's disturbingly close to the human mindset. "Bah, this dog can't fly a plane so it must be incredibly stupid." Ever thought about the fact that a trained dog understands human words and there is no human on Earth who can translate barking?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It wasn't racist, it was realist, a long standing political philosophy that assumes the worst of everyone, because games of politics and power bring out the worst in individual people.

 

And honestly, her fears aren't really unfounded either. This same galactic council who humanity is suppose to trust allowed a genocide and long-lasting genocide plague of two intelligent species under their rule, didn't offer any aid to humanity in the first contact war and would have allowed the turians to wipe humanity off the face of the map, then left humanity to fend for itself against pirates, raiders, slavers, and an entire species covert and military operations.

 

What exactly has the council done for humanity besides chastised it, then left it to fend for itself? And then we come to the people we actually have on board. We have a turian who worked for a division of the council, a krogan mercenary who we know can be uncontrollable and violent, and a quarian whose people have the largest fleet, all on the most advanced military vessel ever designed, being given free reign to study all of its designs, weaknesses, and even its drive core, the very thing that makes it so advanced. To someone who is of the realist school of philosophy, this is akin to the united states inviting the head of military for north korea, china, and iran to take a tour of our newest and most advanced naval vessel avaliable, complete with schematic layouts and everything.

 

Just here you go, unfettered access, help yourselves and your cameras to take as much as you'd like.

 

Calling her concerns racist is a heavy misnomer.

 

That was a politically realist perspective that Ashley held, but then again, your comparison wasn't necessarily accurate or even realistic compared to the context that the game came down too. As I've said several times, Ashley was right, but for the wrong reasons. These were only a few of her reasons, compared to others, where she shows genuine dislike and animosity towards other species. While her concerns weren't necessarily racist in nature, a part (and what I consider to be a significant part) of the underlying belief and intent for them is motivated by it. Whether or not she loses that opinion is up to whether you allow her to survive Virmire or not.