You don't need lyrium to use Templar abilities. According to the convos with Alistair in DA:O to learn the Templar spec. the lyrium only makes the abilities more powerful but you don't have to have lyrium to use the abilities.
Thus, if they become addicted it is their own fault they cant control themselves. They should only be using the lyrium in emergencies.
I have facts and lore backing me up. What do you have?
I have facts and lore backing me up. What do you have?
Read my first sentence again. That's one source. Also, the codex says the lyrium enhances their abilities, it does not say it gives it to them. It also says some get addicted, not all. Thanks for making me look this up. It shows me you were wrong about even more than I thought you were.
wait! i don't have my pitchfork ready yet!
I don't think templars do the phylacteries though. It would require them to use form of blood magic and only templar magic I have seen so far is anti-magic one that weakens people's magic. I'd guess some mage in the circles do the blood magic to vials for them. I'm not sure though, it hasn't been revealed who does the phylacteries and vials in them.
I'm going out on a limb here, since it's been a while since I looked anything up, but I think the phylacteries are only technically blood magic- because they contain the blood of a mage, and that blood can be used to find them- 'like calling to like'. It doesn't seem to conflate equally to a mage using blood as a source of power. So I don't think anyone is -really- using blood magic to make them 
I'm quite easygoing, though, it's fine if I'm wrong 
I don't think templars do the phylacteries though. It would require them to use form of blood magic and only templar magic I have seen so far is anti-magic one that weakens people's magic. I'd guess some mage in the circles do the blood magic to vials for them. I'm not sure though, it hasn't been revealed who does the phylacteries and vials in them.
I'm going out on a limb here, since it's been a while since I looked anything up, but I think the phylacteries are only technically blood magic- because they contain the blood of a mage, and that blood can be used to find them- 'like calling to like'. It doesn't seem to conflate equally to a mage using blood as a source of power. So I don't think anyone is -really- using blood magic to make them
I'm quite easygoing, though, it's fine if I'm wrong
I don't remember where.. probaply in Asunder, but it was implied that those vials contain some form of blood magic ^^
I don't remember where.. probaply in Asunder, but it was implied that those vials contain some form of blood magic ^^
Ahhh thanks I really will have to read those novels one of these days
Actually Templars are far worse. Blood Magic is a tool used in self defence, a type of magic that Templars cannot nullify.
The Templars on the other hand are religious soldiers using nothing but faith as justification to murder innocent people who just want to be free.
Actually Templars are far worse. Blood Magic is a tool used in self defence, a type of magic that Templars cannot nullify.
The Templars on the other hand are religious soldiers using nothing but faith as justification to murder innocent people who just want to be free.
The Templars are not all like that. That does happen in certain cases like in Kirkwall but it is the exception not the rule. The Templars typically only kill the mages once they prove themselves to be a danger. Otherwise they try to capture them alive. Stop using the second game as basis to generalize Templars. Kirkwall is abnormal, most places do not have the things that happened in Kirkwall. I am no fan of the mages being locked away either, but let's not blow things out of proportion. However the mages could be a problem due to the fact that even the best mages could make a mistake and get nabbed by a demon even if they had no intention of hurting anyone. The issue I have is why can't they manage themselves instead of the Templars ruling over them. Maybe have the Templars act more like a police force to apprehend blood mages or something rather than acting as prison guards. But to make an overarching statement like "all Templars murder mages" is just an outright lie.
Actually Templars are far worse. Blood Magic is a tool used in self defence, a type of magic that Templars cannot nullify.
The Templars on the other hand are religious soldiers using nothing but faith as justification to murder innocent people who just want to be free.
So Tevinter magisters using the blood of their slaves to bolster their own power is self-defense?
Templars at their core are simply pseudo-magical/anti-magical warriors. There are extremist members of the Templar Order who would kill a mage as soon as look at one, but most aren't like that. Many simply realize that mages can be dangerous.
The Templars are not all like that. That does happen in certain cases like in Kirkwall but it is the exception not the rule. The Templars typically only kill the mages once they prove themselves to be a danger. Otherwise they try to capture them alive. Stop using the second game as basis to generalize Templars. Kirkwall is abnormal, most places do not have the things that happened in Kirkwall. I am no fan of the mages being locked away either, but let's not blow things out of proportion.
How do you know i'm using the 2nd games logic? Did I say that? Why...no, I didn't. Wow. Perhaps you should stop putting words in people's mouths.
Take Aneirin for example, all he did was run away and he got a sword through the chest and they wouldn't even tell Wynne what happened. Seem kind of crule huh. Or Greagoir who punched a pregnant mage in the stomach. Take the Templars who constantly tried to kill Morrigan and Flemeth, Or take Jowan, he's not evil or truly dangerous, he didn't kill anyone, he stunned the Templars in the circle tower and he poisoned (non magically) because Loghian told him it was what is best. Cullen doesn't even think mages are people. It's Anders who mentions mages being beaten and raped my Templars in Ferelden. Then there is the whole right of Annulment. So perhaps you shouldn't try to lessen the crimes of the Templars because some of them aren't like that. You are also wrong, as soon as a mage runs away from the circle they are branded a Maleficar and the Templar's primary duty is to execute them (Wynne mentions this and...possible Greagoir i'd have to check), not return them to the circle. Perhaps if the mage doesn't attack first and begs for ther life, they might be spared as 'repentant'. But so what? They'll likely be made tranquil, a process most Templars are quite fine with. Asunder anyone? And besides. Kirkwall Templars are still Templars.
Mages have mana, mundanes don't. So mundanes consume artificial mana - lyrium, which mages can also consume to refill. Then when mundanes have used their mana, they need lyrium again, or they don't have fuel anymore for their abilities.
What I am more interested to see is mundanes that consume lyrium and train in duplicating traditional mage spells, rather than train only in the anti-magic school.
Meredith did many interesting magical things, and red Templars in the demo were throwing fireballs, Fenris did his own magic things.
Edit: I am also interested in seeing blood magic using mundanes. Canonically to use blood magic you still expend some mana to establish connection to the blood, a blood mage can't use blood magic for days just because he has unlimited blood, would still get exhausted at one point when mana ends ( this is not how gameplay works of course, but I take it as segregation), just that the mana expense is a lot less, it's a lever effect. So in theory a mundane that consumed lyrium would also be able to use blood magic.
But this is all my theory, that might be complete bull. It just makes sense to me.
Well Reavers use blood magic but they need a ritual and dragon or wyvern blood to unlock those skills. The joining also allows a Grey Warden to tap into the taint in his/her blood to sense darkspawn. I guess there could be other ways mundanes could use blood magic to give themselves power but I doubt it would be anything like what a mage can do.
So Tevinter magisters using the blood of their slaves to bolster their own power is self-defense?
Templars at their core are simply pseudo-magical/anti-magical warriors. There are extremist members of the Templar Order who would kill a mage as soon as look at one, but most aren't like that. Many simply realize that mages can be dangerous.
Blood Magic doesn't not equal a Tevinter magister. The statement the OP made is that Templars and BLOOD MAGIC, not the Tevinter Magisters, are equally bad and I answered THAT question, not the logistics of Blood Magic as a concept. However, Blood Magic is just a tool, sure it can be used in a negative way, but so can regular magic, why would blood magic make a killing worse than if they had just set the slave on fire?
Not to mention that the OP says Templars, likely in terms of their order. As an ORDER the Templars have gotten to an extreme low of mage hating and killings. It's Anders who mentions mages being beaten and raped my Templars in Ferelden. The ORDER is bad, a few good individuals within an order doesn't mean the Templars as an ORDER are good.
How do you know i'm using the 2nd games logic? Did I say that? Why...no, I didn't. Wow. Perhaps you should stop putting words in people's mouths.
Take Aneirin for example, all he did was run away and he got a sword through the chest and they wouldn't even tell Wynne what happened. Seem kind of crule huh. Or Greagoir who punched a pregnant mage in the stomach. Take the Templars who constantly tried to kill Morrigan and Flemeth, Or take Jowan, he's not evil or truly dangerous, he didn't kill anyone, he stunned the Templars in the circle tower and he poisoned (non magically) because Loghian told him it was what is best. Cullen doesn't even think mages are people. Then there is the whole right of Annulment. So perhaps you shouldn't try to lessen the crimes of the Templars because some of them aren't like that. You are also wrong, as soon as a mage runs away from the circle they are branded a Maleficar and the Templar's primary duty is to execute them (Wynne mentions this), not return them to the circle. Perhaps if the mage doesn't attack first and begs for ther life, they might be spared as 'repentant'. But so what? They'll likely be made tranquil, a process most Templars are quite fine with. Asunder anyone?
WTF are you talking about? Aneirin is alive, you find him in the Brecilian Forest during Wynne's companion quest....
As for the right of Annulment, Gregoir only called for it because he thought the circle was lost. The moment he learned otherwise he backed down.
When did Gregoir punch a pregnant mage in the stomach? Did that happen in a book because it didn't happen in the game.
Jowan turned to blood magic which is forbidden, they were going to make him tranquil not kill him.
If what you said about they branding all runaways as Maleficar and try to kill them, why did they capture Anders 7 tiimes before he joined the Wardens? Besides they brand them apostate not Maleficar. They are not branded Maleficar until they show they use blood magic.
Sorry, your post is completely full of false.
WTF are you talking about? Aneirin is alive, you find him in the Brecilian Forest during Wynne's companion quest....
As for the right of Annulment, Gregoir only called for it because he thought the circle was lost. The moment he learned otherwise he backed down.
When did Gregoir punch a pregnant mage in the stomach? Did that happen in a book because it didn't happen in the game.
Jowan turned to blood magic which is forbidden, they were going to make him tranquil not kill him.
If what you said about they branding all runaways as Maleficar and try to kill them, why did they capture Anders 7 tiimes before he joined the Wardens?
Sorry, your post is completely full of false.
You clearly haven't payed attention to DAO. I never said Aneirin was dead , hello? I said they stabbed him in the chest which they did.
The right of Annulment is a TEMPLAR thing, it's not Geagior's personally little baby. He only backed down because he recieved information that the crisis was over before he got word from Denerim that he could go ahead with it.
He punches a pregnant mage in one of the books, mage gets pregnant, father is a templar, Greagoir punches the mage in the stomach.
So it's forbidden? Only because the faith the Templars have subscribed to says it is. They can't prove anything. They were going to make Jowan Tranquil BEFORE they found out 100% he was using Blood Magic, play the game again.
There could be several reason, his own personal charm, a nice templar, but the order dicates that escaped mages are maleficarum and they must be put to death. Cleary some templars ares skirting the rules of their order or using personal Judgement. Even Meredith can be convinced on letting mages go after she envokes the right of Annulment, something they are not supposed to do.
Sorry, your post is completely full of false.
Take Aneirin for example, all he did was run away and he got a sword through the chest and they wouldn't even tell Wynne what happened.
Um, did you ever complete that quest?
Or Greagoir who punched a pregnant mage in the stomach.
When?
Take the Templars who constantly tried to kill Morrigan and Flemeth,
They hunted them and Flemeth killed them. We don't know if the goal was actually to kill them at all. Besides this is Morrigan and Flemeth we are talking about. They are dangerous so it doesn't contradict what Trikormadenadon said.
, Or take Jowan, he's not evil or truly dangerous, he didn't kill anyone, he stunned the Templars in the circle tower and he poisoned (non magically) because Loghian told him it was what is best. .
He was a blood mage.
Cullen doesn't even think mages are people.
Cullen says allot of things depending on allot of circumstances.
It's Anders who mentions mages being beaten and raped my Templars in Ferelden.
He said it happens I don't think he said it was a problem in Ferelden. In fact he claimed he was lucky to be in that circle and I got the impression that it wasn't the cricle he was talking about.
. Then there is the whole right of Annulment.
Annulment is meant to be a last resort and usually it cannot be ordered by anyone in the Templar order.
You are also wrong, as soon as a mage runs away from the circle they are branded a Maleficar and the Templar's primary duty is to execute them (Wynne mentions this and...possible Greagoir i'd have to check).
That can happen but it really depends. The fact that Anders had apparently escaped from the cirlce many times kinda makes it seem like they usually do just bring them back though. Most of the escaped mages in DA2 even are not killed, just sent back to the circle.
Perhaps if the mage doesn't attack first and begs for ther life, they might be spared as 'repentant'. But so what? They'll likely be made tranquil, a process most Templars are quite fine with. Asunder anyone? And besides. Kirkwall Templars are still Templars.
I don't see anders begging for his life and if the mage does attack first then they would be considered dangerous, ofc. Usually the First Enchanter needs to agree for someone to be made tranquil. Kirkwall was a specific situation and I think you are forgetting that many Templars rebelled against Meredith because of the way she treated mages.
Um, did you ever complete that quest?
When?
They hunted them and Flemeth killed them. We don't know if the goal was actually to kill them at all. Besides this is Morrigan and Flemeth we are talking about. They are dangerous so it doesn't contradict what Trikormadenadon said.
He was a blood mage.
Cullen says allot of things depending on allot of circumstances.
He said it happens I don't think he said it was a problem in Ferelden. In fact he claimed he was lucky to be in that circle and I got the impression that it wasn't the cricle he was talking about.
Annulment is meant to be a last resort and usually it cannot be ordered by anyone in the Templar order.
That can happen but it really depends. The fact that Anders had apparently escaped from the cirlce many times kinda makes it seem like they usually do just bring them back though. Most of the escaped mages in DA2 even are not killed, just sent back to the circle.
I don't see anders begging for his life and if the mage does attack first then they would be considered dangerous, ofc. Usually the First Enchanter needs to agree for someone to be made tranquil. Kirkwall was a specific situation and I think you are forgetting that many Templars rebelled against Meredith because of the way she treated mages.
I have answered these question in the post right above yours...
And actually Anders said this:
You clearly haven't payed attention to DAO. I never said Aneirin was dead , hello? I said they stabbed him in the chest which they did.
The right of Annulment is a TEMPLAR thing, it's not Geagior's personally little baby. He only backed down because he recieved information that the crisis was over before he got word from Denerim that he could go ahead with it.
He punches a pregnant mage in one of the books, mage gest pregnant, father is a templar, Greagoir punches the mage int he stomache.
So it's forbidden? Only because the faith the Templars have subscribed to says it is. They can't prove anything. There were going to make Jowan Tranquil BEFORE they 100% he was using Blood Magic, play the game again.
There could be several reason, his own personal charm, a nice templar, but the order dicates that escaped mages are maleficarum and they must be put to death. Cleary some templars ares skirting their rules of their order or using personal Judgement. Even Meredith can be convinced on letting mages go turing the right of Annulment, something they are not supposed to do.
Sorry, your post is completely full of false.
Well I just had the companion discussion with Wynne literally hours before this conversation and I did not hear anything about Aneirin being stabbed in the chest. Even if that is true however, it does not mean that's how they deal with all escapees. It is more likely it just happen in a tussle, not that they were actively trying to kill him.
The Right of Annulment is a Templar thing true, but I was trying to point out that it was being used as it was meant to be used. There was no abuse of power. It is meant to be used as a last resort and that is how it was being used. By Gregoir anyways, Meredith is another issue entirely.
Why blood magic is forbidden is not relevant to the conversation. The fact that it is and is considered evil and the fact that in order to use blood magic you have to make a deal with a demon in order to learn it so if they are not already an abomination there is a good chance they will become one thus the Templars don't risk it and deal with it right away. I admit it's a grey area but the Chantry feels it is better to err on the side of caution. As for Jowan they already suspected him of being a blood mage, that's why Irving lets the mage player work with Jowan if you tell Irving about Jowan's plans to escape. Templars kill Maleficar, that is one of their major roles but like you said, they were not 100% sure he was so they were going to make him Tranquil. Since they thought he might be a blood mage they could not allow him to do his harrowing so there was no other option.
The reason they did not just kill Anders is they are not branded Maleficar until they use blood magic. If they simply escape they are labelled apostate and they try to capture them.
I have answered these question in the post right above yours...
They were not all questions. 
And actually Anders said this:
- Sebastian: You seem very angry.
- Anders: And here I thought the Chantry was against mind-reading.
- Sebastian: Did something happen to you in the Circle? I understand there were problems in Ferelden...
- Anders: Are you saying a mage can only be unhappy in the Circle if demons were involved?
- Anders: No, it's not about Uldred. It's not about being beaten or raped by a templar— that does happen, but I've been fortunate.
- Anders: It' s a larger principle: the freedom every man, woman, and child born in Thedas have as a natural right.
- Sebastian: You were given to the Circle. I was given to the Chantry. Hawke was driven away from home by the Darkspawn.
- Sebastian: None of us are free.
So he's saying that some mages get beaten and raped by Templars and we know that happens already. He doesn't say it was specifically a problem in the Ferelden circle. I am not saying it has never happened there but I don't think he was specifically talking about there.
As for annulment, again it's a last resort. The circle was crawling with abominations and demons, if the Warden hadn't been there the circle would have been lost and the only thing to do would be to annul it. The fact that he calls it off shows that he wasn't of the same opinion as Templars like Cullen (in DA:O) and Meredith.
Irving was happy to make Jowan tranquil too and there is no way the mage warden can talk him out of agreeing to it (and you can try from what I remember). Blood magic being forbidden isn't really the will of the Templars or even the Chantry. Remember it was the Inquisition who formed the Templar order and they were created to fight blood magic (mostly). Whether or not you believe it's bad there are good reasons why it is seen as bad, both games have shown us this.
Where are you getting these Templar rules from? It does seem like some are unfairly branded Maleficarum but Maleficarum does not mean escaped mage and we have seen many cases of Templars capturing and not killing escaped mages.
Annulment can be invoked but not carried out so that would make me think they can let mages go after it has been invoked. Allthough I am sure she was just gonna kill them after she killed Hawke.
Red Templar and blood mages are equally bad
FTFY OP
Templars are bad because they kill the innocent. Rape there victimizes. And get away with it because of Religious reason. They are more like territories. What that sound like to you. I believe by killing all Americans I can get 100 virgins and go to heaven. I believe I kill all mages I can get anything I will go to the maker and be on the maker side.
Rape,murder, they are all addicted to lyrium. Sounds like a truly good way to be a templar. All join in the templar rank. You can rape the blood mages and then kill the mage.
"Templars are the ideal foils for mages, having been trained specifically to counter magic. Templars have the abilities to dispel magic and inhibit spellcasting, and they develop a considerable immunity to magic, primarily through ingesting Lyrium. Ironically, these abilities could be considered a form of magic in themselves[3]. Though their abilities are mostly used as a foil for mages and fade creatures, some of their talents can have practical uses for the mundane. Holy Smite for example, is an attack that causes magical Spirit damage. Abilities such as Silence and Lasting Cleanse can prevent even normal opponents from using their talents for a short time."
You need Lyrium to be a Templar.
"All templars are addicted to lyrium, which is officially used to help develop their anti-mage skills and unofficially used as a control mechanism by the Chantry. A lack of lyrium causes the templar to lose touch with reality and suffer from delusions within 1-2 months.[8] The effects of lyrium addiction for templars include paranoia, obsession, and dementia.[9] Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours.[10]
It is confirmed that lyrium does have effective benefits for templars, as it builds a resistance to magic in them over time, as well as increasing the effectiveness of their magic abilities, such as being able to shut off a mage's abilities entirely. Some people think that templars are conditioned to be dependent on this mineral for its attributes and that the Chantry knows of its addictiveness. Both Alistair and Evangeline claim that "the Chantry controls the supply of lyrium, and thus they control the templars."[8]"
This is for the person who says you don't need lyrium or templars don't need it.
Templars are bad because they kill the innocent. Rape there victimizes. And get away with it because of Religious reason. They are more like territories. What that sound like to you. I believe by killing all Americans I can get 100 virgins and go to heaven. I believe I kill all mages I can get anything I will go to the maker and be on the maker side.
Rape,murder, they are all addicted to lyrium. Sounds like a truly good way to be a templar. All join in the templar rank. You can rape the blood mages and then kill the mage.
"All templars are addicted to lyrium, which is officially used to help develop their anti-mage skills and unofficially used as a control mechanism by the Chantry. A lack of lyrium causes the templar to lose touch with reality and suffer from delusions within 1-2 months.[8] The effects of lyrium addiction for templars include paranoia, obsession, and dementia.[9] Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours.[10]
It is confirmed that lyrium does have effective benefits for templars, as it builds a resistance to magic in them over time, as well as increasing the effectiveness of their magic abilities, such as being able to shut off a mage's abilities entirely. Some people think that templars are conditioned to be dependent on this mineral for its attributes and that the Chantry knows of its addictiveness. Both Alistair and Evangeline claim that "the Chantry controls the supply of lyrium, and thus they control the templars."[8]"
This is for the person who says you don't need lyrium or templars don't need it.
Quoting the wiki proves nothing. The wiki is written by fans and as such can't be taken as gospel. Note that none of the things talking about all Templars being addicted have any source attached to them. However the in game codex CAN be taken as gospel and the codex in the game says SOME Templars become addicted. By definition that means not all of them do. If all the Templars became addicts and suffer the issues shown in your quote the entire Templar order would cease being able to function after a short time. It's not logical to think all Templars are addicted to lyrium is even remotely true at all. It makes no sense.
no templars are evil and all need to die im gonna enjoy helping mages kill the filthy monsters.
Because both uses abilities that are forbidden. The chanty makes it legal for Templars. While out casting blood magic. You need lyrium to be a templar. So basically you are a drug addict. Who needs a fix. The chanty controls your fix.
I see all 3 evil. Blood magic corrupts. Drug addicting Templars. Drug Dealer Chantry.
Oh, big deal if they're addicted. Not like they're ever going to turn to Red Lyrium to get their fix... right?
Seriously though; This is Lyrium, not meth. They remain sane if they take it, and gain abilities to deal with dangerous mages. That is not a bad thing.
Blood Magic doesn't corrupt; it is not inherently evil. Mind controlling people is what makes Blood Magic forbidden, that and the fact you can use someone's life as fuel for spells. Its wrong, and harmful to others. Using Blood Magic to deal with Criminals and fight Darkspawn is fine though.
I don't quite agree OP. Blood Mages, in most cases, are worse than Templars. Specifically Blood Mages.
~~~
Not every Mage is bad. But when a Mage is bad, they get super bad. They go Blood Mage.
Templars tend to be kinda-bad. An occasion of one being very good or very bad will happen, but less often than a Mage going super bad.
Thus the idea is that the Templars act kinda bad, but for the sake of keeping others from being exposed to the super badness that Mages can and have brought to the world.
I don't think that we're necessarily supposed to love or hate Templars or Mages, but simply pick a side when forced to by plot. Decide what you value more.
Pro-Circle Mages are about on par with Templars overall. The Templars are typically not about to eradicate mages all the time, but instead put them in the Circle and control their place in the world.
Blood Mages are about on par with what seems Red Templars will be. Erratic. Dangerous. But also we may understand why they go that route. Blood Mages, at least at first, do it in desperation for their lives and those close to them. Red Templars so far appear to be going that way out of desperation for their cause and focus on the 'anti-mage' part of Templar instead of 'containment and safety'. Both make a certain kind of sense, but only if you're selfish - which even the worst Dragon Age protagonists can't be at their core; they're forced to be heroes and self-sacrificing in some respect.
A Blood Mage that uses their own blood isn't necessarily bad though. They have that 'self-sacrificing' element that may just save everyone in the nick of time. This is why we can play one.
But a Blood Mage that sacrifices the blood of OTHERS, without their express permission and a solid logic behind doing so... that's about the worst that a person can be. Worse than any Templar. That was the depths of depravity that Tevinter fell to. For all we know, they collected in proper resistance and response to whatever ancient elves did to them... but then they held onto their power, their domination, their rage, and became a hellish story to tell for generations.
For the record, I am typically pro-Mage in confrontations, pro-reformed-Circle and abolishing of the Chantry for ideology, and accept Blood Magic to a degree without some automatic death sentence. Even Dragon Age 2 didn't deter me from that, because I view it in a certain context (like you know, Kirkwall is a crazy place with a thin Veil).
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