1180 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

That goes back to my point above. That the games simply don't work if Liara isn't close to you.

Try to play it another way and things sort of fall flat (or get creepy). It's a series with a lot of cool elements and potential, but only really makes sense with a Liara romance.

I don't know about "series". It's really just LotSB and bits of ME3 that pseudo-assume you romanced Liara. The "gift" at the end of ME3 is another one. For somebody I never spoke to all that much, the tone in Liara's voice and her choice of words made it... Intimate, for lack of a better term. Uncomfortably so. It's more awkward when Shepard DOES romance somebody, but they aren't part of the crew in 3 Miranda, in my case).

The time capsule scene too, when Liara is writing Shepard's entry. Shepard's auto-response to Liara after telling her how to do Shepard's entry makes them out to be BFFs.

[DuskWanderer]

That goes back to my point above. That the games simply don't work if Liara isn't close to you.

 

Try to play it another way and things sort of fall flat (or get creepy). It's a series with a lot of cool elements and potential, but only really makes sense with a Liara romance.

 

Friendly correction: Liara's character doesn't work because it assumes you are close. You can have the games just fine, Liara's just obsessive and stalkerish. You can still make a game like that, it just makes an assumption on Shepard's part. Given that Shep is the character we play, it's a problem.

[Ryriena]

When someone like one of my Shepard's whom romanced Kaidan and was a ****** to her it seem to her that she was a bit creepy. It felt really out of placed unless she was romanced in me1 which to me doesn't bold well in a role playing game. Somewhat like how those whom romanced Alastair in DAO feel about the whole thing with Morgian. That's punishing a player for choosing the wrong characters to like or romance.

[themikefest]

I don't know about "series". It's really just LotSB and bits of ME3 that pseudo-assume you romanced Liara. The "gift" at the end of ME3 is another one. For somebody I never spoke to all that much, the tone in Liara's voice and her choice of words made it... Intimate, for lack of a better term. Uncomfortably so. It's more awkward when Shepard DOES romance somebody, but they aren't part of the crew in 3 Miranda, in my case).

The time capsule scene too, when Liara is writing Shepard's entry. Shepard's auto-response to Liara after telling her how to do Shepard's entry makes them out to be BFFs.

If you didn't know, if you avoid talking with Liara throughout the whole game except cutscenes, she will not offer the gift

 

I liked the idea of the time capsule, but didn't like it that it was her telling my story.

[DuskWanderer]

Well, I wish you luck if you want to play the games and think she's stalkerish at the same time

 

Personally, I just gave up.

One of these days, I'll write that fanfic about it. Liara paying Kasumi to film Shep in the shower and such.

 

There's plenty of great stuff in the ME-verse, I just have to ignore Liara. Fortunately, the "skip dialogue" features helps. It helps, but, as Felix Fischoder says "putting a Band-Aid on a fart doesn't make it go away"

[Farangbaa]

Speaking of Kasumi: now she is creepy. 

[Livi14]

You're making an assumption (they don't say anything about that), most of the people that mentioned LotSB loved the fight with Tela Vasir more than anything else. Further, initial reviews usually gravitate towards such things, they quiver the nostaglia glands. It's far better to get a sense of how people feel after the glamour is gone, and they look at things with a clear mind.
 
When I first played Old World Blues in Fallout: New Vegas, I was stunned, it was a complete tonal shift that shocked me, and I came out of it with a big "huh?" After I played it again a few months later, I started thinking "Yeah, this is hilarious, it's funny." Likewise, once people stopped thinking "OMG, it's nice to have Liara back" and "Ooh, Tela Vasir fighting is fun", they could stop and say: "Hey, wait a sec, she's got my charred burned armor as a trophy. Cree-py" and "Hey, the third party member doesn't talk at all, despite it being Garrus or Tali. What gives?"
 
More to the point, people are still complaining about it now, and, like it or not, the complaints exist and have merit. Instead of making the argument that "Oh, they're just haters who are obsessed", accept that Liara was forced as a bestie, that she got far too much screen time to justify her flaws, and move on.

Yeah, a few haters complain about it now while a vast majority still considers Lair of the Shadow Broker as the best Mass Effect 2 DLC, just like most professional reviewers. And that has very little to do with the Vasir fight. Banter, graphics and level design all took up a step up in quality.

And when the developers describe Liara as a fan-favorite, as a beloved character, the face of the franchise and one of the most recognizable character of Mass Effect I tend to believe them. Together with fan polls all over the internet and Bioware's own statistics you'll get a rather comprehensive picture. I'd say the obsessed haters should just accept that they are a small minority, and move on.

 

Chris Priestly said, for example, in one thread about Citadel DLC, in reference to someone noting Liara always seemingly taking precedence over other LI:  "Ok. Fair points. Certainly in the past Liara has played a large role (LotS for example), but for that reason she is featured a little more prominantly in this trailer. She has been used as a face for the game and is easily recognized by casual ME fans as a character in the series. Not everyone would know who Traynor, Grunt or even Wrex woudl be, yes hardcore fans absolutely, but casual fans, less so."

[Xilizhra]

One of these days, I'll write that fanfic about it. Liara paying Kasumi to film Shep in the shower and such.

 

There's plenty of great stuff in the ME-verse, I just have to ignore Liara. Fortunately, the "skip dialogue" features helps. It helps, but, as Felix Fischoder says "putting a Band-Aid on a fart doesn't make it go away"

Why would you write fanfiction about characters you don't like? That sounds, to me, like masturbating with sandpaper.

 

As for Liara, eh. People will think what they like. The only other person who could have filled her role of tracking Shepard's body down would be Tali, as the other four squadmates could all be dead or not recruited, and I don't see what would make Tali more appropriate for the role than Liara--there's not even the potential for romance there yet. The armor is what it is; different species have different views on how the dead should be handled (witness turians banning all photography of war dead, as seen in CDN articles), and this might be considered a respectful thing in asari culture, which seems to emphasize interpersonal bonds a lot. Either way, there's not enough information to attack Liara out of hand on it. And the dog tags are a deed of Hackett, not Liara.

[DuskWanderer]

Really? Given that the asari all look alike, I'd say Garrus is infinitely more recognizable. Or, y'know, Sheploo, given he's on the damn boxes and looks the same all three times.

 

I've actually never heard anything about the "banter" in LotSB, I found it quite stilted and one-sided, given only two people can talk. Level design and graphics (and honestly, I think the folks are high who say this, because I didn't see a difference) has nothing to do with Liara.

 

You know who else the developers said was a "fan-favorite" and a "beloved character" of their series? Lana Lang of Smallville, Kate from Robin Hood, Owen from Total Drama, Sam Manson from Danny Phantom, Thrall from World of Warcraft, Phoebe Halliwell from Charmed. I could really go all day. Just because the developers say something doesn't make it true.

 

As for statistics, you are aware those stats are biased in her favor, right? You have to take Liara on four missions, when compared to everyone else (Tali is only available for two, and not available for the first chunk of the game). It's quite telling that Garrus practically matches her, and is only available for one. She's naturally going to be used more. Those statistics also don't tell us whether or not she's liked, just that she's used.

[Mordokai]

That kind of goes to my idea that the asari's true form is some kind of weird squid-like creature, much like the thermians of Galaxy Quest, and use their perception-altering abilities to make everyone else in the galaxy perceive them as blue women.

 

Something like this?

 

 

Mind you, not a theory I personally subscribe to. We see asari on pictures and videos and they look unchanged.

[DuskWanderer]

Why would you write fanfiction about characters you don't like? That sounds, to me, like masturbating with sandpaper.

 

As for Liara, eh. People will think what they like. The only other person who could have filled her role of tracking Shepard's body down would be Tali, as the other four squadmates could all be dead or not recruited, and I don't see what would make Tali more appropriate for the role than Liara--there's not even the potential for romance there yet. The armor is what it is; different species have different views on how the dead should be handled (witness turians banning all photography of war dead, as seen in CDN articles), and this might be considered a respectful thing in asari culture, which seems to emphasize interpersonal bonds a lot. Either way, there's not enough information to attack Liara out of hand on it. And the dog tags are a deed of Hackett, not Liara.

For comedy, of course. People doing crazy things can be funny if you write it correctly. I'm a professional writer, I would know.

 

Honestly, Miranda could have tracked the body with Cerberus's resources. There's nothing in asari society that says mementos are kept for any reason other than to pass to daughters about short-lived bondmates. I don't think I need to explain how this is inapplicable to Liara.

[Mordokai]

Why would you write fanfiction about characters you don't like? That sounds, to me, like masturbating with sandpaper.

 

That is somewhat disturbing, if very accurate, comparison.

[Xilizhra]

For comedy, of course. People doing crazy things can be funny if you write it correctly. I'm a professional writer, I would know.

 

Honestly, Miranda could have tracked the body with Cerberus's resources. There's nothing in asari society that says mementos are kept for any reason other than to pass to daughters about short-lived bondmates. I don't think I need to explain how this is inapplicable to Liara.

Well, there's not a whole lot about any alien culture. The point is that we don't have enough information to condemn anyone. As for Miranda... it's not impossible, but it removes an interesting plot element and leaves Liara with relatively little to do in the two-year interim, which I don't think is that characteristic; she's the only other one who's seen Shepard's visions and would seem to be the one who'd be most committed to stopping the Reaper threat, in a way.

[Livi14]

DLCs are not included in the infographic Bioware released. She is mandatory on Thessia, Mars (except for the first few mob groups) and the first few mob groups on Menae. That makes two missions, not four.

And the developers know exactly how many people romanced a character, what characters are the most used on which mission, do people talk to a character and so on. And when they say Liara is a fan favorite and fans wanted more Liara they definitely know it better than you.

[DuskWanderer]

DLCs are not included in the infographic Bioware released. She is mandatory on Thessia, Mars (except for the first few mob groups) and the first few mob groups on Menae. That makes two missions, not four.

And the developers know exactly how many people romanced which character, what characters are the most used on which mission and so on. And when they say Liara is a fan favorite and fans wanted more Liara they definitely know it better than you.

Thessia + Mars + Menae = 3. Again, compare that to everyone else you get at that time (James at 2, EDI and Garrus at 1)

 

I notice you don't address the points about how developers say characters are fan favorites when they aren't. Of course you wouldn't, it invalidates all of your points. Am I to gather you don't have a response?

[Xilizhra]

Thessia + Mars + Menae = 3. Again, compare that to everyone else you get at that time (James at 2, EDI and Garrus at 1)

 

I notice you don't address the points about how developers say characters are fan favorites when they aren't. Of course you wouldn't, it invalidates all of your points. Am I to gather you don't have a response?

I don't know about any of the others, but Thrall had been a fan favorite up until Cataclysm arguably misused him in several quarters; he was given so much time because of his favorite status. And he's not that unpopular even now, he just has a vocal hatedom.

[o Ventus]

DLCs are not included in the infographic Bioware released. She is mandatory on Thessia, Mars (except for the first few mob groups) and the first few mob groups on Menae. That makes two missions, not four.

And Eden Prime. That's all of Thessia, all of Eden Prime, most of Mars, and roughly 35% of Menae. 3 and 1/2 missions where Liara's presence is mandatory. DLC might not be in the infographic, but it's still part of the game.

And the developers know exactly how many people romanced a character, what characters are the most used on which mission, do people talk to a character and so on. And when they say Liara is a fan favorite and fans wanted more Liara they definitely know it better than you.

And yet, it's still an unhealthy development philosophy to assume that people romanced Liara when writing the dialogue.

[DuskWanderer]

Well, there's not a whole lot about any alien culture. The point is that we don't have enough information to condemn anyone. As for Miranda... it's not impossible, but it removes an interesting plot element and leaves Liara with relatively little to do in the two-year interim, which I don't think is that characteristic; she's the only other one who's seen Shepard's visions and would seem to be the one who'd be most committed to stopping the Reaper threat, in a way.

What we do have gives us a fair guess, though. Asari save artifacts from their bondmates with short In alifespans so that their daughter can remember their fathers, and to a less extent, so the asari can remember her bondmate. We see this with the asari and the locket on Illium, the salarian and his asari daughter on Illium, and Samara's file on the Shadow Broker dossiers. In all of these instances, bondmates are required. A non-LI Liara is not this, therefore, having it even without that raises the implication that she views Shepard as such.

 

Considering that TIM was pretty committed to stopping the Reapers at that time, I'm not sure the beacon is necessary. TIM recognized the threat, clearly.

[Xilizhra]

What we do have gives us a fair guess, though. Asari save artifacts from their bondmates with short In alifespans so that their daughter can remember their fathers, and to a less extent, so the asari can remember her bondmate. We see this with the asari and the locket on Illium, the salarian and his asari daughter on Illium, and Samara's file on the Shadow Broker dossiers. In all of these instances, bondmates are required. A non-LI Liara is not this, therefore, having it even without that raises the implication that she views Shepard as such.

 

Considering that TIM was pretty committed to stopping the Reapers at that time, I'm not sure the beacon is necessary. TIM recognized the threat, clearly.

Samara was also saving things from her daughters, keep in mind. And again, not enough information to condemn.

 

And the point isn't that TIM wouldn't, but that Liara should.

[themikefest]

How popular would she of been had all characters were available at the beginning of the game? Or how popular would she be had she only been available for half the game like Tali and Ashley/Kaidan? How popular would she be had she been romanceable by only one gender and not both?

[Xilizhra]

How popular would she of been had all characters were available at the beginning of the game? Or how popular would she be had she only been available for half the game like Tali and Ashley/Kaidan? How popular would she be had she been romanceable by only one gender and not both?

You asked this like five times already.

 

Also, Liara was the least available squadmate in ME1, and didn't show up on the squad at all in ME2.

[DuskWanderer]

Samara was also saving things from her daughters, keep in mind. And again, not enough information to condemn.

 

And the point isn't that TIM wouldn't, but that Liara should.

 

Shepard is Liara's daughter?

 

Then I'm afraid you've lost me, I'm sorry. What does it matter if Liara has nothing to do, neither did any of the other characters. The question, as I understand was "Who should?" And the answer, obviously, is TIM, who has the resources to do all of these things, to use his agents such as Miranda.

[DuskWanderer]

You asked this like five times already.

 

Also, Liara was the least available squadmate in ME1, and didn't show up on the squad at all in ME2.

The infographic being cited was ME3 only, it had nothing to do with the other two games. That's why it wasn't brought up.