1180 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

As has been explained to you repeatedly, Psych, we don't like the terracentrism either. I don't like the autodialogue where Shepard suggests other species abandon their burning homeworlds to save ours. Given the backgrounds available to Shepard, (s)he doesn't exactly have a basis to be particularly attached to the planet in the first place.

[themikefest]

Humanity would've done exactly the same had they been number one. They only play along because they are not.
 

You don't know that. 

 

That, my fellow BSN'ers, is why you hate the Asari.

Can you prove that is why I hate the Asari?

[dreamgazer]

Given the backgrounds available to Shepard, (s)he doesn't exactly have a basis to be particularly attached to the planet in the first place.

 

Attachment to the planet itself isn't really the point, though.

[DuskWanderer]

You've yet to prove a single thing about Shepard's backstory being anything more than what it is. So, I ignore it, you're not making any assertions that make sense whatsoever.

 

Uhh...it's not illegal to fight to save Council races. Further, Shepard isn't asking for all of their fleets, just what they can spare. He also suggests a collected and full-on counterattack with everyone working together.

 

It's not illegal to let a Council homeworld fall, otherwise, all of the others would be in violation for letting Earth fall. It is, however, a crime to withhold Prothean tech. It is probably not a crime, but a purely dick move, to let the galaxy suffer while High Command buries their heads in the sand and pretends everything is fine.

[DeinonSlayer]

Attachment to the planet itself isn't really the point, though.

Seems that way when Shepard pines about leaving Earth being the hardest thing he's ever done, "it's good to be home," etc.

Before the Citadel was brought there, Earth really wasn't all that important to the end of building and deploying the Crucible. Humanity was lucky - our population was large enough and dispersed enough that losing our homeworld wouldn't break us. The Raloi, for instance, have all their eggs in one basket, and liberating their homeworld would be a greater priority to them if the goal is to keep their species alive.

[dreamgazer]

Seems that way when Shepard pines about leaving Earth being the hardest thing he's ever done, "it's good to be home," etc.

 

Well, yeah, since leaving Earth means leaving the battle for humanity.

 

As for "It's good to be home"? Eh, after dealing with alien politics and orchestrating troops for months while staying away from the decimated planet with over 99% of humanity's population, I'm willing to look at it metaphorically instead of literally.  A little sloppy, yeah, but I wouldn't directly chalk it up to forced Earth attachment.

[DeinonSlayer]

Well, yeah, since leaving Earth means leaving the battle for humanity.

As for "It's good to be home"? Eh, after dealing with alien politics and orchestrating troops for months while staying away from the decimated planet with over 99% of humanity's population, I'm willing to look at it metaphorically instead of literally. A little sloppy, yeah, but I wouldn't directly chalk it up to forced Earth attachment.

Not a fan of that line, personally. Colonist and Spacer Shepard never lived there, Earthborn signed up specifically to get out of there. Earth is not in any sense, past or present, "home" to most Shepards. Given that my canon vocalized post-war plans on Rannoch, Earth isn't home in any future sense, either.

Long story short, it breaks character. Sort of like the forced Liara hug.

[dreamgazer]

Not a fan of that line, personally. Colonist and Spacer Shepard never lived there, Earthborn signed up specifically to get out of there. Earth is not in any sense, past or present, "home" to most Shepards. Given that my canon vocalized post-war plans on Rannoch, Earth isn't home in any future sense, either.

 
Fair enough, but that doesn't negate the importance of Earth as the homeworld for humanity as a species, nor the work poured into preserving said species.

Long story short, it breaks character.

I don't really think so, given the throwaway nature of the line itself and the situation's context.

[Sir DeLoria]

And then people dare call the Asari stupid/bimbos

Oh my god, how dare they?!

while all they do is play the power game to perfection.

Not really to perfection actually, the Asari had more economic power prior to the invasion. They were still dependent on the other council races. The Turians had the stronger military and the Salarians had the better scientists.

That, my fellow BSN'ers, is why you hate the Asari.

Not necessarily.

[Treskalterion]

What is a BSN'er?

[dreamgazer]

What is a BSN'er?

People who post on the BioWare Social Network.

Huh. Which, oddly, doesn't really mean anything anymore since that's no longer the forum's name. Just realized that.

[Farangbaa]

As has been explained to you repeatedly, Psych, we don't like the terracentrism either. I don't like the autodialogue where Shepard suggests other species abandon their burning homeworlds to save ours. Given the backgrounds available to Shepard, (s)he doesn't exactly have a basis to be particularly attached to the planet in the first place.

 
Doesn't matter. You're complaining about the Asari additude while the Human's might even be worse, with the player character up front and most vocal about it. If you're just going to ignore the things the PC and every other human in the game does just because you disagree with it, I suggest you treat the Asari the same way and we won't be having this discussion.
  

You don't know that.

Oh, but I do. This is what we do and have done on a day to day basis within our species from the moment we developped cities and division of labor, only to become more extreme once citystates and, eventually, nation states came into being. It's nearly unthinkable that we'd just share the power/knowledge/tech with aliens (the most extreme example of outsiders) while we have trouble sharing it with outsiders within our own species.

The only reason the humans work along in the MEU is because they are not on top and have something to gain by sharing. And even that they do reluctantly. You've played ME1 enough to know that is true.

Can you prove that is why I hate the Asari?

Nope.

[themikefest]

 

Oh, but I do. This is what we do and have done on a day to day basis within our species from the moment we developped cities and division of labor, only to become more extreme once citystates and, eventually, nation states came into being. It's nearly unthinkable that we'd just share the power/knowledge/tech with aliens (the most extreme example of outsiders) while we have trouble sharing it with outsiders within our own species.

The only reason the humans work along in the MEU is because they are not on top and have something to gain by sharing. And even that they do reluctantly. You've played ME1 enough to know that is true.
 

That is your assumption. Still doesn't mean humanity would not tell anyone.

 

 
Nope.

What was the purpose of making that comment?

[DuskWanderer]

Just get over him, he's not willing to provide meaningful discussion about the asari or Liara.

 

Now, back to Liara, perhaps constructive criticism is in order. Let's ask everyone who dislikes Liara:

 

Name specific instances in which you hate Liara's character, and how would you change it (saying "don't do it" doesn't count)

[Farangbaa]

That is your assumption. Still doesn't mean humanity would not tell anyone.

But it's a very good indication that the chances that they would are slim to none.

What was the purpose of making that comment?

That's why I believe.

[DeinonSlayer]

Doesn't matter. You're complaining about the Asari additude while the Human's might even be worse, with the player character up front and most vocal about it. If you're just going to ignore the things the PC and every other human in the game does just because you disagree with it, I suggest you treat the Asari the same way and we won't be having this discussion.

Here I've repeatedly stated my dislike for the PC's statements is on par with my dislike for the Asari's actions, and you're trying to claim I "ignore" it?

Are you even trying anymore? It's like I'm seeing some kind of Asari persecution complex at play here.

[Han Shot First]

Liara is one of my favorite characters but I'm in agreement with those who think Liara's lack of military experience doesn't mesh well with her combat bad@ssery. The game did try to explain her being capable as having had to face pirates and such before, but I'm not sure it quite works. I think the character would have been a bit more plausible had they given Liara a backstory where after the falling out with her mother, she did a stint in the Asari military to help pay for university. 

 

Where I differ with some of the more vocal critics is that while it is an issue for me, it doesn't completely ruin the character. Like the left-handed salutes in ME3, it also doesn't completely ruin my suspension of disbelief. Its a small issue for me rather than being a major one.

 

Also I think people can sometimes be quite selective with that criticism. Kasumi for example has far less justification for being on the team than Liara. Liara at least has an explanation (fighting pirates), even if it is a weak one. Kasumi is just a thief with no combat or military experience at all. Miranda being an action girl is also a bit of a head scratcher. She was a scientist with Cerberus, like Brynn Cole or Dr. Gavin Archer. Unlike Jacob she didn't come packaged with the Corsair backstory. "But Cerberus.." doesn't really work as an believable explanation for her combat prowess, any more than Liara's pirates.

[DeinonSlayer]

Liara is one of my favorite characters but I'm in agreement with those who think Liara's lack of military experience doesn't mesh well with her combat bad@ssery. The game did try to explain her being capable as having had to face pirates and such before, but I'm not sure it quite works. I think the character would have been a bit more plausible had they given Liara a backstory where after the falling out with her mother, she did a stint in the Asari military to help pay for university.

I could get behind that, though I'd think it'd dictate she have a less timid personality from the outset. Blob would probably blow a fuse... so much the better. One theory I found interesting was that Shiala gave her combat training at one point. She was one of Benezia's acolytes, after all.

Where I differ with some of the more vocal critics is that while it is an issue for me, it doesn't completely ruin the character. Like the left-handed salutes in ME3, it also doesn't completely ruin my suspension of disbelief. Its a small issue for me rather than being a major one.

To me, she goes through too many major character shifts with too little justification to be taken seriously. She's more plot clay than a character, stuffed in wherever they need her.

I'm with Massively in that they ought to do a lot more research before tackling the military again.

Also I think people can sometimes be quite selective with that criticism. Kasumi for example has far less justification for being on the team than Liara. Liara at least has an explanation (fighting pirates), even if it is a weak one. Kasumi is just a thief with no combat or military experience at all. Miranda being an action girl is also a bit of a head scratcher. She was a scientist with Cerberus, like Brynn Cole or Dr. Gavin Archer. Unlike Jacob she didn't come packaged with the Corsair backstory. "But Cerberus.." doesn't really work as an believable explanation for her combat prowess, any more than Liara's pirates.

On those two, we can agree. Miranda could have used more backstory, and Kasumi was waaay too adept at murder-knifing mooks to have had a pre-SM career limited to art theft.

[Vilio1]

Probably because their personalities are far closer to boring than irksome.  
 
This isn't a gender thing. Let's not go that route.

 
The use of inappropriate misogynistic terms is a gender thing and I find it annoying, this is all I wanted to say. Ah well, at least an excuse to add a few more people to my ignore list.

And seriously, people who liked Liara and the asari before ME3 came out still like them. People who hated Liara and the asari before ME3 came out still hate them. That has nothing to do with the asari beacon or Liara's gameplay qualities in Mass Effect 3.

[themikefest]

Just make Liara older serving 50 years in the Asari military as a commando who also specializes in information. With concerns from her mother, she leaves the military and studies the Protheans for the next 50 years. This would give her a combat background and a reason that would fit to replace the shadow broker.

 

 

 

 

 

Also I think people can sometimes be quite selective with that criticism. Kasumi for example has far less justification for being on the team than Liara. Liara at least has an explanation (fighting pirates), even if it is a weak one. Kasumi is just a thief with no combat or military experience at all. Miranda being an action girl is also a bit of a head scratcher. She was a scientist with Cerberus, like Brynn Cole or Dr. Gavin Archer. Unlike Jacob she didn't come packaged with the Corsair backstory. "But Cerberus.." doesn't really work as an believable explanation for her combat prowess, any more than Liara's pirates.

 

I agree about Kasumi. I would add Jack, Grunt, Thane and Mordin. I would only keep Mordin on the ship and not make him a squadmate

[von uber]

Christ on a bike, you people are obsessed.

And for what it's worth, I think there is an element of misogyny in the anti-liara/asari vibe for some.

[SNascimento]

Another thing about her terrible character development: Asari age differently than humans. It seems they take things much slower and stay a long time in each of their endeavours. If I remember correctly, Liara was a archeologist for decades before ME1 and she says her work wasn't take serisouly because she is too young.

So if you translate her arc to a human. It would be something like a 19 years old naive archeolist that in few months become a super commando/information broker.

[DuskWanderer]

Liara is one of my favorite characters but I'm in agreement with those who think Liara's lack of military experience doesn't mesh well with her combat bad@ssery. The game did try to explain her being capable as having had to face pirates and such before, but I'm not sure it quite works. I think the character would have been a bit more plausible had they given Liara a backstory where after the falling out with her mother, she did a stint in the Asari military to help pay for university. 

 

Where I differ with some of the more vocal critics is that while it is an issue for me, it doesn't completely ruin the character. Like the left-handed salutes in ME3, it also doesn't completely ruin my suspension of disbelief. Its a small issue for me rather than being a major one.

 

Also I think people can sometimes be quite selective with that criticism. Kasumi for example has far less justification for being on the team than Liara. Liara at least has an explanation (fighting pirates), even if it is a weak one. Kasumi is just a thief with no combat or military experience at all. Miranda being an action girl is also a bit of a head scratcher. She was a scientist with Cerberus, like Brynn Cole or Dr. Gavin Archer. Unlike Jacob she didn't come packaged with the Corsair backstory. "But Cerberus.." doesn't really work as an believable explanation for her combat prowess, any more than Liara's pirates.

We're actually not familiar enough with Kasumi's and Miranda's backstories enough to make that determination, but what we do see contradicts that. We already know Miranda's had some experience with the whole "batarian virus on the Citadel" with Jacob, and who knows what else she's done with Cerberus. Kasumi...we don't know what she's done to get out of scrapes, or the combat training she's had, but Foundation shows us she knows how to get out of scrapes, and if I remember, Keiji (who was Alliance) gave her some training.

 

Liara...doesn't get that. At best she's had to deal with ragtag thugs alongside the bodyguards that have been hired to go with her. 

[dreamgazer]

Another thing about her terrible character development: Asari age differently than humans. It seems they take things much slower and stay a long time in each of their endeavours. If I remember correctly, Liara was a archeologist for decades before ME1 and she says her work wasn't take serisouly because she is too young.

So if you translate her arc to a human. It would be something like a 19 years old naive archeolist that in few months become a super commando/information broker.

 

Couple of dedicated months can turn people into competent fighters, and Liara already came equipped with combat skills that she either picked up from her mother or independently (she says she's had to hold her own at dig sites). 

[SNascimento]

Also I think people can sometimes be quite selective with that criticism. Kasumi for example has far less justification for being on the team than Liara. Liara at least has an explanation (fighting pirates), even if it is a weak one. Kasumi is just a thief with no combat or military experience at all. Miranda being an action girl is also a bit of a head scratcher. She was a scientist with Cerberus, like Brynn Cole or Dr. Gavin Archer. Unlike Jacob she didn't come packaged with the Corsair backstory. "But Cerberus.." doesn't really work as an believable explanation for her combat prowess, any more than Liara's pirates.

She wasn't a scientist, she was an operative (like Brooks). She could have performed a number of different missions for Cerberus, and many were to overseer the most demanding missions Cerberus undertook. The fact she was skillfull soldier was stated/shown from the very get go of ME2.