1180 réponses à ce sujet

[Vilio1]

Christ on a bike, you people are obsessed.

And for what it's worth, I think there is an element of misogyny in the anti-liara/asari vibe for some.

 

This thread was definitely a lot more fun when we were posting blue baby pictures

Now you just have the same 4-5 people telling each other why they hate every aspect of Liara/the asari.

 

So if you translate her arc to a human. It would be something like a 19 years old naive archeolist that in few months become a super commando/information broker.

 

Very few at that age have a Ph.D, field experience and an established career, which Liara has when Shepard meets her. To me this makes her to be in her mid 20s.

[SNascimento]

This thread was definitely a lot more fun when we were posting blue baby pictures

Now you just have the same 4-5 people telling each other why they hate every aspect of Liara/the asari.

 

 

Very few at that age have a Ph.D, field experience and an established career, which Liara has when Shepard meets her. To me this makes her to be in her mid 20s.

I thought this in this way: Asari live to 1000, Liara is 100. If humans in ME universe live to 150, then a human Liara would be 15... but that is too low, so I pushed to 19. 

[von uber]

I thought this in this way: Asari live to 1000, Liara is 100. If humans in ME universe live to 150, then a human Liara would be 15... but that is too low, so I pushed to 19. 

 

As comparative progress through their lifespan, yes. Not in actual experience.. in that she has 3 times that of Shepard in actual 'living'.

[DuskWanderer]

Christ on a bike, you people are obsessed.

And for what it's worth, I think there is an element of misogyny in the anti-liara/asari vibe for some.

I find the people who go for arguments like this are typically trying to shame and silence the opposition.

[Jorji Costava]

Also I think people can sometimes be quite selective with that criticism. Kasumi for example has far less justification for being on the team than Liara. Liara at least has an explanation (fighting pirates), even if it is a weak one. Kasumi is just a thief with no combat or military experience at all. Miranda being an action girl is also a bit of a head scratcher. She was a scientist with Cerberus, like Brynn Cole or Dr. Gavin Archer. Unlike Jacob she didn't come packaged with the Corsair backstory. "But Cerberus.." doesn't really work as an believable explanation for her combat prowess, any more than Liara's pirates.

 

My question is more with Miranda's leadership ability rather than her combat ability (which can mostly be handwaived with her genetic tailoring). So Shepard needs to painstakingly earn each of these characters' loyalty in order to lead them into combat without getting them killed in the suicide mission, but Miranda can lead the fire team with no problems despite the fact that most of the squad neither likes nor trusts her? That strikes me as a little odd. So why did the Illusive Man need to resurrect Shepard again?

 

I could get behind that, though I'd think it'd dictate she have a less timid personality from the outset. Blob would probably blow a fuse... so much the better. One theory I found interesting was that Shiala gave her combat training at one point. She was one of Benezia's acolytes, after all.

 

I always liked the idea of just combining the characters of Shiala and Liara into one character (or more precisely, just removing Liara and having Shiala serve whatever limited story functions Liara was there to serve). That way, you could remove the relatively uninspiring Therum mission (and alleviate the redundancy of visiting no less than three Prothean ruins in ME1), and play up the whole "Can she be trusted?" angle that was set up with Liara but quickly went nowhere. If the character in question not only has significant combat experience but also a recent history of having worked with Saren and Benezia, then the security concerns about her become much more legitimate.

 

From there you could have her actually betray the crew, or if she doesn't, then Shepard's having put trust in her, and her paying off that trust, becomes more significant in light of the legitimate doubts about where her loyalties lie. Not really sure which way I'd want that story to go, but either way it seems more interesting than the actual Liara character to me, anyways.

[von uber]

I find the people who go for arguments like this are typically trying to shame and silence the opposition.

 

I find people who respond thussly are uncomfortable with things that are pointed out. As a case in point, calling the Asari 'bimbos' has negative connotations that reflect on their sex as opposed to generic features common to both like 'stupid' 'untrustworthy' etc.

The Turians, Krogan etc are not described with negative male traits; only the Asari are described with traits relating to their sex (note, only by some posters not all by any stretch).

And as for shaming the 'opposition' (opposition? odd choice of wording), pointing out someone as being misogynistic should be shaming as it is reflective of a fairly backwards viewpoint.

[DuskWanderer]

I find people who respond thussly are uncomfortable with things that are pointed out. As a case in point, calling the Asari 'bimbos' has negative connotations that reflect on their sex as opposed to generic features common to both like 'stupid' 'untrustworthy' etc.

The Turians, Krogan etc are not described with negative male traits; only the Asari are described with traits relating to their sex (note, only by some posters not all by any stretch).

And as for shaming the 'opposition' (opposition? odd choice of wording), pointing out someone as being misogynistic should be shaming as it is reflective of a fairly backwards viewpoint.

Annoyed would be a better word than uncomfortable. 

 

"Opposition" is the appropriate word. The person arguing the other side is the "opposition" 

 

It's only appropriate to shame if it is true. As I pointed out, people who typically go for ad hominem attacks are just trying to paint the other as less of a person, rather than attacking the merits of the argument. 

[DuskWanderer]

My question is more with Miranda's leadership ability rather than her combat ability (which can mostly be handwaived with her genetic tailoring). So Shepard needs to painstakingly earn each of these characters' loyalty in order to lead them into combat without getting them killed in the suicide mission, but Miranda can lead the fire team with no problems despite the fact that most of the squad neither likes nor trusts her? That strikes me as a little odd. So why did the Illusive Man need to resurrect Shepard again?

 

 

I always liked the idea of just combining the characters of Shiala and Liara into one character (or more precisely, just removing Liara and having Shiala serve whatever limited story functions Liara was there to serve). That way, you could remove the relatively uninspiring Therum mission (and alleviate the redundancy of visiting no less than three Prothean ruins in ME1), and play up the whole "Can she be trusted?" angle that was set up with Liara but quickly went nowhere. If the character in question not only has significant combat experience but also a recent history of having worked with Saren and Benezia, then the security concerns about her become much more legitimate.

 

From there you could have her actually betray the crew, or if she doesn't, then Shepard's having put trust in her, and her paying off that trust, becomes more significant in light of the legitimate doubts about where her loyalties lie. Not really sure which way I'd want that story to go, but either way it seems more interesting than the actual Liara character to me, anyways.

Miranda has been a leader and has natural talent for leading small squads, she simply isn't as talented as Shepard is due to lesser experience. That doesn't mean she can't do things on a smaller scale, like leading the fire teams. It's also something she has experience with, whereas Shepard is gung-ho enough to take on the unknown.

 

I'm not sure about the whole Shiala thing you posted, but I will say it's more interesting than the Liara character we did get. 

[von uber]

As I pointed out, people who typically go for ad hominem attacks are just trying to paint the other as less of a person, rather than attacking the merits of the argument. 

 

Perhaps, but using the term bimbo and then being called misogonystic is not an ad hominem attack.

[DeinonSlayer]

Perhaps, but using the term bimbo and then being called misogonystic is not an ad hominem attack.

"Bimbo" probably is inappropriate, whoever used it. I suppose "arrogant hedonistic layabout" would be a more neutral descriptor.

[SNascimento]

Miranda has been a leader and has natural talent for leading small squads, she simply isn't as talented as Shepard is due to lesser experience. That doesn't mean she can't do things on a smaller scale, like leading the fire teams. It's also something she has experience with, whereas Shepard is gung-ho enough to take on the unknown.

 

I'm not sure about the whole Shiala thing you posted, but I will say it's more interesting than the Liara character we did get. 

If anything, Miranda has more experience than Shepard, she is older and is probably working for Cerberus for some twenty years. Shepard is just more "talentend". He is a class of his own, we have many other great leaders among our squadmates like Garrus, but Shepard is special. Or specialEST. 

[SNascimento]

About the Asari, the fact that they love to be strippers doesn't help. I found them to be a very mediocre, they were engineering by the protheans to be great and used their knowledge to have a technological advantage over the other races and still they don't have accomplished much. 

[Oni Changas]

Remeber that time where Shepard and Udina were all like "Drop your sheeit and defend Earth NAO!" I don't.

I recall them asking for help because with the events of ME2 and the Hegemony getting bodied in a week, the reaper's WERE more numeric in presence in Sol compared to every other cluster. Only the Turians would have an argument in that aspect. Even then, they weren't saying "DROP EVERYTHING!" they were just asking for reinforcements.

@ Denion, yeah true. Nub comes more from their lack of experience as youngsters compared to the rest of the Normandy in ME1. Still, Tali's like... 17-19 and fights off a group of assassins twice before being bailed out by Shepard and Wrex/Garrus/Kaidan/Ash. She is a poor leader though, I'd say.

And Liara may be inexperienced in ME1 in combat , but its clear the team pitched in to help her hone her skills. I'm sure Wrex insisted as her even states her biotics will be very helpful.

LOL @ Rana being smart. She lacks common sense. Quarians had bad timing, yes, but they at least acknowledged the reaper threat unlike that asari-ass "High Command."

If any race had been top dog they'd want to keep it that way, except maybe the turians. There's all this talk of asari being ahead of the curve yet we are shown repeatedly that turians could easily have the galaxy by the balls if not for humanity and the Salarians to keep them in check. Salarians are shown to have spy networks nearly as good as Cerberus and a Batman amount of contigency plans to devastate anyone. The Krogan are held down ONLY by the genophage. They could easily be the next Prothean empire if not for the forced limitation.

[KaiserShep]

If anything, Miranda has more experience than Shepard, she is older and is probably working for Cerberus for some twenty years. Shepard is just more "talentend". He is a class of his own, we have many other great leaders among our squadmates like Garrus, but Shepard is special. Or specialEST. 

 

Miranda was born in 2150, so by the events of ME2, she would be about 35, so I have to ask:

 

Has Miranda been working for Cerberus since the age of 15?

[Oni Changas]

, but Miranda can lead the fire team with no problems despite the fact that most of the squad neither likes nor trusts her? That strikes me as a little odd. So why did the Illusive Man need to resurrect Shepard again?

"I'm Commander Shepard, and I run this ship. What I say matters. Miranda will lead this team. I trust her skills and so will you. Clear?"

If you can't buy that then you can always connect the dots and realise that she had been making good calls and protecting her squad, which earns their respect. There's dialogue of her complementing the team too.

[KaiserShep]

I don't see why Miranda would have a problem with anyone but Jack, who's basically a screwball that may only follow orders if it suits her, regardless of who's in charge anyway.

[Oni Changas]

When Miranda first suggests she should lead the squad, even Garrus nods "no." Then there's Tali and her beef with Cerberus.

[themikefest]

I laugh when Jack is made fireteam leader and Miranda says, "you got to be kidding". Unfortunately the squadmate that is in the vent, will die

[KaiserShep]

When Miranda first suggests she should lead the squad, even Garrus nods "no." Then there's Tali and her beef with Cerberus.

I know Garrus seems to disapprove, but he's also a soldier that will do as told anyway. He's not likely to jeopardize the mission to destroy the Collectors and hopefully save the Normandy crew (and maybe some colonists) just because he doesn't trust Miranda. For all of Tali's grief with Cerberus, the same is true of her as well. Frankly, I really can't see why any of the crew beyond Jack would have a serious enough issue that they wouldn't follow orders.

[spirosz]

I don't see why Miranda would have a problem with anyone but Jack, who's basically a screwball that may only follow orders if it suits her, regardless of who's in charge anyway.

 

Did you just call Jack a screwball? 

[SNascimento]

Miranda was born in 2150, so by the events of ME2, she would be about 35, so I have to ask:

 

Has Miranda been working for Cerberus since the age of 15?

Between 15 and 18 years old I'd say. Oriana was a baby when Miranda got out, and she should be at least 20 by the time you do Miranda's mission.

[SNascimento]

And Liara may be inexperienced in ME1 in combat , but its clear the team pitched in to help her hone her skills. I'm sure Wrex insisted as her even states her biotics will be very helpful.
 

All Wrex does is state that her biotics will come in handy in a fire fight. I don't remember he insisting to anything.

But since you mentioned Tali there can be made an interesting parallel between her and Liara. Both are very young (considering different standards for races) and in ME1 Liara even sounds more naive than the quarian. In ME2, Tali grows whithin what can be expected of her.. the Quarians probably give her more than what she can handle and that almost leads to disaster if not for Shepard, but Tali really stand up to the situation in her mission. However she doesn't suddenly become the quarian equivalent to Julius Caesar... it feels organic. Liara on the otherhand just become something that you could never picture her being in ME1... there is no natural progression, only a huge break in the character development.

[zestalyn]

 

Miranda was born in 2150, so by the events of ME2, she would be about 35

 

Daaaaaaaamn she looks phenomenal for 35, not a wrinkle in sight    Aside from her perfected genes, can that be one of the perks we can expect from developing 150 year life spans? 30s are the new 20s   
 

I know Garrus seems to disapprove, but he's also a soldier that will do as told anyway. He's not likely to jeopardize the mission to destroy the Collectors and hopefully save the Normandy crew (and maybe some colonists) just because he doesn't trust Miranda. For all of Tali's grief with Cerberus, the same is true of her as well. Frankly, I really can't see why any of the crew beyond Jack would have a serious enough issue that they wouldn't follow orders.

He doesn't just "seem" to disapprove, he straightup objects to Miri if Jack is dead ("Half of us don't even trust you") No one is actually willing to disobey orders, because you can still assign Miri as squad leader. They're simply voicing their opinion, and Garrus has good reasons to distrust Miranda b/c of Cerberus's reputation (which doesn't need saying if he was with you in ME1 and saw all the horrible experiments himself ).

Garrus/Jack's impression of Miranda has probably changed little from the moment they met her since it is unlikely any of them have taken the time to chat and get to know Miranda like Shepard has. 

 

[Mordokai]

 

Is butthurt your usual reaction to hearing things you don't like? Because it certainly seems like it.

 

LOL @ Rana being smart. She lacks common sense. Quarians had bad timing, yes, but they at least acknowledged the reaper threat unlike that asari-ass "High Command."

 

So wait, now you're equaling competence, intelligence and common sense to each other?

 

What?

 

Also, nice work, picking out the biggest screwball out of all the names mentioned. Does wonder for your argument.

 

All Wrex does is state that her biotics will come in handy in a fire fight. I don't remember he insisting to anything.

 

It's not hard imagining that Wrex and Garrus, maybe Williams gave Liara some weapon training. I imagine Shepard would insist on it. Most of my Shepards gave her the training themselves, but that's another matter

 

Kaidan and Liara probably had some biotic workouts. She's a better biotic, but he's a military and a good biotic as well.

 

It's never shown, but it's also not unreasonable to assume that Liara learned a lot in her time aboard the Normandy.

[von uber]

It's never shown, but it's also not unreasonable to assume that Liara learned a lot in her time aboard the Normandy.

Don't be daft, that would be far too logical.