1180 réponses à ce sujet

[Vilio1]

Not even remotely true. And many people don't react in any positive way when being exposed to prolonged combat, uncertainity about the fates of family or friends, death and massive destruction - regardless of what happened in the past.

[Coming0fShadows]

People do respond to stress entirely different. While all the races in mass effect have human traits since they are created by humans, trying to argue anything about how stress would react on alien races is pretty pointless. For example do Asari have adrenals? If a humans adrenals are burned out, a stress reaction is entirely different then in a healthy person. Long term stress can also cause adrenal fatigue.

The medical care in mass effect is always swinging from advanced to primitive so its hard to say anything about that. It makes sense to assume they all react like humans because they didnt put alot of detail into the medical aspect, but its all speculation based on individual head canon based on the individuals medical background.

Ehh hopefully that makes sense.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

 I like Vasir, one of the best villains in ME.

Vasir isn't a villain, she's just an antagonist. Shepard's working with Cerberus is worse than her working with the Shadow Broker.
 

 

War is war and while people respond differently basic psychology is usually the same.

War... war never changes. 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Man, I haven't been on the ME forum on BSN in over 2 years but I used to see this thread with the same title all the times. 2 years later, I still see it!

 

Never change, guys. Never change.

[DuskWanderer]

Not even remotely true. And many people don't react in any positive way when being exposed to prolonged combat, uncertainity about the fates of family or friends, death and massive destruction - regardless of what happened in the past.

 

I suppose you're an expert, then? Until you are, I'll stick with someone who's had the closest experience around. I've been shot at, but probably not to the extent Massively has been, I'll stick with his assessments unless mine differ from his experience. 

[Asari_Party]

People do respond to stress entirely different. While all the races in mass effect have human traits since they are created by humans, trying to argue anything about how stress would react on alien races is pretty pointless. For example do Asari have adrenals? If a humans adrenals are burned out, a stress reaction is entirely different then in a healthy person. Long term stress can also cause adrenal fatigue.

The medical care in mass effect is always swinging from advanced to primitive so its hard to say anything about that. It makes sense to assume they all react like humans because they didnt put alot of detail into the medical aspect, but its all speculation based on individual head canon based on the individuals medical background.

Ehh hopefully that makes sense.

This. You don't have to be an expert to know that soldiers and combat veterans cope in very different ways with the experiences they lived.

[Oni Changas]

I rather liked Liara. Her character evolved a lot over the series, and for the better. The thing which bothered people was that they felt like romancing Liara was kind of pushed on you or you miss out on something if you don't romance her. Plus there are the missions where she is given primary importance. I didn't see it as too much of an issue myself.

Evolved? No, Tali evolved. One can even argue for Kaidan as well due to him being a leader in ME3 also. Tali goes from unproven kid to perhaps the quarians' most important person over the span of the trilogy. It feels natural because we see the progression. If she were to go the Liara route she'd be admiral by the time we meet her on Haestrom while having half the expertise she claims to have.

 

Heh, there's a reason Liara's name never came up in ME2's "baddest ____ in the galaxy" dossiers. She's a nub

[Oni Changas]

Unlike humanity, who gets away with the attack on the center of galactic government for almost half of the game.

 

Unlike Cerberus. There were plenty of humans getting executed during the coup and just as many fighting alongside turians and, *gasp* there's one coordinating a counter attack (Bailey) and at least 2 more directly protecting the other councillors (Ash/Kaidan/Shepard).

 

Asari Acid Trip Command wasn't exactly sharing their prothean data. Given their lengthy tenure on the council and in Citadel space, they're likely the ones who came up with the idea/law to disclose prothean tech discoveries.

[DuskWanderer]

Evolved? No, Tali evolved. One can even argue for Kaidan as well due to him being a leader in ME3 also. Tali goes from unproven kid to perhaps the quarians' most important person over the span of the trilogy. It feels natural because we see the progression. If she were to go the Liara route she'd be admiral by the time we meet her on Haestrom while having half the expertise she claims to have.

 

Heh, there's a reason Liara's name never came up in ME2's "baddest ____ in the galaxy" dossiers. She's a nub

 Yeah, Liara never evolved, because the writers tried to make her do everything at once. "She's your bestie!" "She's a hard-ass information broker!" "She's still the same naive girl you knew!"  You can't grow if they try to make you do everything. Part of growing is learning from your mistakes.

[DuskWanderer]

Unlike Cerberus. There were plenty of humans getting executed during the coup and just as many fighting alongside turians and, *gasp* there's one coordinating a counter attack (Bailey) and at least 2 more directly protecting the other councillors (Ash/Kaidan/Shepard).

 

Asari Acid Trip Command wasn't exactly sharing their prothean data. Given their lengthy tenure on the council and in Citadel space, they're likely the ones who came up with the idea/law to disclose prothean tech discoveries.

 

Tevos flat out admits that she knew High Command was breaking the law, she just gave her excuse of "oh, it's our racial secret" and expects that to excuse everything she does. Even if High Command didn't make the law, the Council approved it, and thus, the asari are bound to it.

[Asari_Party]

Evolved? No, Tali evolved. One can even argue for Kaidan as well due to him being a leader in ME3 also. Tali goes from unproven kid to perhaps the quarians' most important person over the span of the trilogy. It feels natural because we see the progression. If she were to go the Liara route she'd be admiral by the time we meet her on Haestrom while having half the expertise she claims to have.

 

Heh, there's a reason Liara's name never came up in ME2's "baddest ____ in the galaxy" dossiers. She's a nub

 

Tali didn't have much to evolve, she was a walking encyclopedia in the first game. She was probably written from the ground up for ME2, hence the illusion of character progression. Garrus, Wrex and Liara on the other hand, I really liked where they went with them after Mass Effect 1. Liara's youthful innocence in ME1 was fine, I suppose, but I preferred the depth she showed in ME2/LotSB/ME3. The old Liara was still there, but under other layers that had to be peeled away. Very good writing by BioWare, in my opinion. ME3 also cemented my Shepards friendship with Garrus to the point that the relationship felt, somehow, real. Forming a squad like Shepard was very in-character, and the subsequent 'depression' due to his failure made sense to me too. Wrex didn't have as much screentime as the other two, but I couldn't be more pleased to see his optimism in ME2/3, as it shows how much development he has seen over these games.

[Oni Changas]

Tali didn't have much to evolve, she was a walking encyclopedia in the first game. She was probably written from the ground up for ME2, hence the illusion of character progression. Garrus, Wrex and Liara on the other hand, I really liked where they went with them after Mass Effect 1. Liara's youthful innocence in ME1 was fine, I suppose, but I preferred the depth she showed in ME2/LotSB/ME3. The old Liara was still there, but under other layers that had to be peeled away. Very good writing by BioWare, in my opinion. ME3 also cemented my Shepards friendship with Garrus to the point that the relationship felt, somehow, real. Forming a squad like Shepard was very in-character, and the subsequent 'depression' due to his failure made sense to me too. Wrex didn't have as much screentime as the other two, but I couldn't be more pleased to see his optimism in ME2/3, as it shows how much development he has seen over these games.

http://3.bp.blogspot...0/spiderman.gif

 

Every alien was an "encyclopedia" and once again, you can make that same argument for Anderson.

 

To spell it out, we first see Tali on her own as some kid on a pilgrimage. In ME2 she's headstrong and leading a team independant of Shepard. There's a consistent progression of Tali being more and more independant and strong. Liara, as has been brought up, is just all over the spectrum. She's suddenly a powerful info broker (despite being a nerdy archeologist last we saw her) and threatening a previously-described-neutral (Anderson/Barla Von, ME1) entity in the Shadow Broker. It's inconsistent with what we know and makes her come off as a very fake character. Love Ash or her her, she's depicted as a more real person due to her beliefs being her driving force never changing. In ME1, Garrus is smart and slightly hot headed but always seeks advice from Shepard. Despite ignoring the "become a Spectre" advice in ME2, Garrus retains knowledge of Shepard's lessons. He's leading his own team after getting sick of the policies he'd been trying to work through in ME1. Again, there's a consitent arc there; Garrus rails against the beaurocracy in bigger and better ways.

[Asari_Party]

To spell it out, we first see Tali on her own as some kid on a pilgrimage. In ME2 she's headstrong and leading a team independant of Shepard. There's a consistent progression of Tali being more and more independant and strong. Liara, as has been brought up, is just all over the spectrum. She's suddenly a powerful info broker (despite being a nerdy archeologist last we saw her) and threatening a previously-described-neutral (Anderson/Barla Von, ME1) entity in the Shadow Broker. It's inconsistent with what we know and makes her come off as a very fake character. Love Ash or her her, she's depicted as a more real person due to her beliefs being her driving force never changing. In ME1, Garrus is smart and slightly hot headed but always seeks advice from Shepard. Despite ignoring the "become a Spectre" advice in ME2, Garrus retains knowledge of Shepard's lessons. He's leading his own team after getting sick of the policies he'd been trying to work through in ME1. Again, there's a consitent arc there; Garrus rails against the beaurocracy in bigger and better ways.

 
There really isn't. The idea of Tali having "pull" with the quarians is laughable. She is a good engineer with zero leadership and personality skills; not a savvy politician or a military genius. And yet: She becomes an admiral. Liara becoming an information broker is much easier to accept. Information brokering seems like a job where you can rise quickly depending on what info you have (read Redemption), how you handle your rivals and how good your network is at getting info. Liara already had the skills, it's only a matter of employing the same skills in a different way.
It was the drive that she needed (save Feron). What she needed to learn was to be ruthless, and this change happened when Sheperd died and Feron sacrificed himself to save her. I see a constant character line from ME1 all the way to LotSB and ME3. She changed, but at the same time she is still a private, isolated individual with an obsession for information, retrieval and analysis. I've already said that I like Garrus development. Ashley's character suffered a bit after ME1, but I agree.

[SNascimento]

Liara development is nonsensical, Tali's isn't. 

[Sir DeLoria]

I don't get it, why can so many Liara fans not accept a single flaw in her writing?

And no, this isn't 'hate', you can like or even love a character and still admit that their writing is at least partially flawed. Stop thinking in extremes.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Need I point out how Cerberus was created by the Alliance government as a black ops organization?

[Heimdall]

Need I point out how Cerberus was created by the Alliance government as a black ops organization?

...which went rogue years ago?

[DuskWanderer]

I don't get it, why can so many Liara fans not accept a single flaw in her writing?

And no, this isn't 'hate', you can like or even love a character and still admit that their writing is at least partially flawed. Stop thinking in extremes.

 

I believe the term is that she is their "waifu"

 

But yes, they should get over it. I mean, Garrus and Kaidan are my bros and Ashley is my lady-bro, but their writing did have flaws. I accept it, and don't try to push that they are somehow the best characters

[MACharlie1]

 
There really isn't. The idea of Tali having "pull" with the quarians is laughable. She is a good engineer with zero leadership and personality skills; not a savvy politician or a military genius. And yet: She becomes an admiral. Liara becoming an information broker is much easier to accept. Information brokering seems like a job where you can rise quickly depending on what info you have (read Redemption), how you handle your rivals and how good your network is at getting info. Liara already had the skills, it's only a matter of employing the same skills in a different way.
It was the drive that she needed (save Feron). What she needed to learn was to be ruthless, and this change happened when Sheperd died and Feron sacrificed himself to save her. I see a constant character line from ME1 all the way to LotSB and ME3. She changed, but at the same time she is still a private, isolated individual with an obsession for information, retrieval and analysis. I've already said that I like Garrus development. Ashley's character suffered a bit after ME1, but I agree.

I thought we were talking about Liara - not Tali. Though I do agree making Tali admiral did raise my eyebrow though I am glad they made note that the position was pretty much one used for political reasons and not because of her skills as a leader. 

Regardless - this thread isn't about other characters faults (which their are plenty of - trust me...) this is about Liara. It's not productive to divert blame to other characters. They will get their turns. 

 

NOW. A flaw in the writing was that Liara's position as Shadow Broker was not only odd for a Prothean expert - that whole plot line was established because the writers really didn't know what to do with her until ME3 - and it's pretty much dropped in ME3. There really wasn't any sort of anything Liara did as a Shadow Broker. It would have been nice to have her give you a few quests that had nothing to do with the Asari and gathering intel but Traynor ends up getting those for some reason. Would have also been nice if they tied up that cliff hanger with the Cerberus quest in ME1. Perhaps Liara knows where Cerberus is based on the data Shepard gave to the SB in ME1....but nooooo. I know the argument is that she is doing things behind the scenes but truthfully I want to see that and not be told and it doesn't even sound like shes doing anything that requires Shadow Broker intel as much as access to data given by Hackett. 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

...which went rogue years ago?

So? It was till started and sponsored by the Alliance. 

If the CIA went rogue and went on to blow up the Kremlin, Russia would be rightfully pissed off. 

[MrMrPendragon]

I like Liara. My playthroughs don't feel quite right if my Shepard isn't romancing Liara. I don't exactly know why people hate her, but I'm sure they have good reasons.

[Drone223]

I like Liara. My playthroughs don't feel quite right if my Shepard isn't romancing Liara. I don't exactly know why people hate her, but I'm sure they have good reasons.

I don't think its hate, it has more to do with the fact that her character development is very inconsistent throughout the trilogy. She's spend most of her life studying the protheans in ME1 but in ME2 she becomes the best information broker in the galaxy in about two years with no past experience being a information broker what-so-ever.

[Zazzerka]

But yes, they should get over it. I mean, Garrus and Kaidan are my bros and Ashley is my lady-bro, but their writing did have flaws. I accept it, and don't try to push that they are somehow the best characters

 

Newton's third law. Maybe if people could cool their jets and stop blaming Liara for the Holocaust and the death of Tupac, everyone could relax a little.

[Mordokai]

Unlike Cerberus. There were plenty of humans getting executed during the coup and just as many fighting alongside turians and, *gasp* there's one coordinating a counter attack (Bailey) and at least 2 more directly protecting the other councillors (Ash/Kaidan/Shepard).

 

Asari Acid Trip Command wasn't exactly sharing their prothean data. Given their lengthy tenure on the council and in Citadel space, they're likely the ones who came up with the idea/law to disclose prothean tech discoveries.

 

If it's allright to blame the entire asari race for the failure of their leadership(which I openly admit is... less than ideal), then it's also ok to blame the entire humanity for the actions of Cerberus.

 

I could point to matriarchs defending Cyone, Cybaen, Nefrane, asari donating DA to the cause, Armali sniper unit and the rest of the units defending the cause. But I think it would be a wasted effort, since I just know certain people will start tooting the same old horn as always. The whole hiding the beacon thingie.

 

Liara development is nonsensical, Tali's isn't. 

 

 

I don't get it, why can so many Liara fans not accept a single flaw in her writing?

And no, this isn't 'hate', you can like or even love a character and still admit that their writing is at least partially flawed. Stop thinking in extremes.

 

And I don't get it why Liara is the only one to get singled out, when there are plenty of flaws in other characters to be had.

[themikefest]

Why don't you make a thread about those characters with their flaws?