115 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyberstrike nTo]

I find it completely distasteful for folks here to continue assuming that pre-ordering is a bad business practice. I don't pre-order the vast majority of games I buy. I tend not to even buy a game unless proven to be a good game (sometimes despite its flaws) through word of mouth from friends that have similar tastes.

 

Bioware games, on the other hand, have been a 100% pre-order for me since KoToR. Why? Because they have never once let me down. Not. Once. The games they make appeal directly to my taste in gaming. Rich universes, compelling characters, great storytelling. These types of things are what I like MOST when I play a game, and they never - ever- fail to deliver. Not even Mass Effect 3's convoluted ending had me disappointed in my choice of pre-order. I chose to pre-order because I KNOW there will probably be flaws or things I'm not expecting. I may even be disappointed in some of those things. Yet what I want from these games that Bioware puts out, I always get. So it's always worth it to me.

 

Now I'm hardly a bioware fan girl. I have been put off by some of their choices. I have found myself disappointed in how some things are handled, and I have zero qualms about bringing my well thought out criticism to these forums if I feel it's required. And occasionally it is. But not once in my gaming existence have I ever regretted a Bioware game pre-order.

 

As for additional content for "Deluxe" editions and the criticism of people who chose to spend those 10 extra dollars.... it's their money. They could be like me and absolutely be willing to toss the company that puts out games that give us the things we want a little extra cash. If they can afford it, and the extra bits are compelling enough to want to -- it's no body's business but theirs and the gaming companies.

 

People complain when we get a 10$ day one dlc character. They complain when we don't. Nothing will make them happy, and honestly I'm really just tired of seeing the gross hatred that spews from them. "DAY ONE CHARACTER DLC!? THATS ON THIS DISK ITS A RIP OFF! NO DAY ONE CHARACTERS? THE EXTRA DLC ISN'T WORTH MY 10$ ITS A RIP OFF!!" It's either to much or not enough.

 

So generally speaking -- if you don't like something, don't spend your money on it. You don't have to. Feel like they did something to warent waiting for reviews or friends to play? that's fine. Don't feel the extra 10$ is worth the DLC? That's fine too.That's why there's a separate option. If someone likes or dislikes something, that's their choice. I personally enjoy the little bit of extra content. I personally prefer downloading my game instead of having to wait in line to pick up a hard copy. I personally enjoy supporting the company that on the whole brings me games that I enjoy.

 

And if they do something cruddy, I'll call them out. If it ever comes to a point that the cruddy thing is big enough to lose my trust, then I'll stop pre-ordering, and stop buying dlc content.

 

QFT.

[robertthebard]

Don't buy it, I'm not going to either. Just get the regular version and stop encouraging people with bad business practice (looking at all you who pre-orders).

Um, I'm a consumer. My preorder isn't a bad business practice. If you don't want to preorder, don't. If you don't want to get anything beyond the Standard edition, then don't. But, don't come to the forums later and claim that you're entitled to all the content because you already bought the game. What you bought is what you got.

[Setiweb]

Trust me

If you need to say it then it shouldn't be given.

[The Baconer]

I find it completely distasteful for folks here to continue assuming that pre-ordering is a bad business practice.

 

It's bad consumer practice, because 9 times out of 10 it's a completely pointless gesture.

[CronoDragoon]

It's bad consumer practice, because 9 times out of 10 it's a completely pointless gesture.

 

The point is receiving extra stuff for a game I know I'm going to buy Day 1 anyway.

[Rosey]

It's bad consumer practice, because 9 times out of 10 it's a completely pointless gesture.

It's not a completely pointless gesture.

 

Pre-ordering from a buisness perspective gives a gaming company an idea of who is in the audience they want to (or are trying to) target, with marketing and future game making.

 

Pre-ordering from the consumer perspective is support of a company or game franchise they find worthy of their money.

 

I don't pre-order FPS, RTS, and MMO's - but I do buy them. In these cases I tend to wait for friends or reviews.

I don't pre-order from companies I have little/no faith or prior experience with. Even if the game in question looks fantastic. I take a wait and see approach.

I DO pre-order RPG's from established companies whom I trust to give me the type of RPG I enjoy. I have been proven, and give my trust. If it's broken, I won't pre-order again.

 

At the end of the day, it's all preference - but that preference also helps or hurts a company. If the first thing was great: you chose to pre-order the next thing they do. If the second thing was less great, you chose not to when the third comes around. It gives the company information on what you perhaps found lacking and then drives them to return to great, change up their strategy - or eventually fold.

 

You can use pre-ordering in any number of settings and it works the same. Take Apple products for example. I myself am not a fan. While I have owned an Iphone in the past, because I overall didn't enjoy my experience with the product, I have no need/want to pre-order the latest and gratest iphone or ipad when it comes out. My brother on the other hand, has pre-ordered the latest and greatest every single time since the first. He enjoys their product. He is in the demographic they are aiming for when they advertise. Advertising that was spawned from the projected number of pre-orders they received in the past. 

 

Just because you personally don't find pre-ordering to be something worth doing, does in no way make it something that is a pointless gesture.

[demon_mouze]

so pre order doesn't include dlc? since its ea u know theres gonna b load of them.

[Lintanis]

Just have to borrow this bit "I DO pre-order RPG's from established companies whom I trust to give me the type of RPG I enjoy." from Rosey cus me to and Bioware have delivered each time to give me the games I want to play on my PS3.  so a BIG THUMBS up to them and EA whose decision it was to release those games to the consoles

[Maclimes]

Four pages? FOUR PAGES? The only response needed was literally the very first response.

 

If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you do like it, do buy it.

 

Why are people bothering to defend/attack this? It's pure silliness.

[TurretSyndrome]

To me, it is a rip off and it's not as simple as "if you don't like it, don't buy it", since buying or not buying it will affect the existence and range of such practices. The reason I think it's a rip off because it's not post-release DLC. Resources were set aside for the creation of such content and sold separately. Doesn't matter what the content is. If it's made during the development of the game and released with it, then it belongs in it.

[CronoDragoon]

To me, it is a rip off and it's not as simple as "if you don't like it, don't buy it", since buying or not buying it will affect the existence and range of such practices. The reason I think it's a rip off because it's not post-release DLC. Resources were set aside for the creation of such content and sold separately. Doesn't matter what the content is. If it's made during the development of the game and released with it, then it belongs in it.

 

This assumes that such content would have existed in the first place even if no pre-order bonuses existed. It seems more likely that this content was created specifically for being a pre-order bonus, and that the alternative would have been no Flames of the Inquisition content at all.

[Ailith Tycane]

To me, it is a rip off and it's not as simple as "if you don't like it, don't buy it", since buying or not buying it will affect the existence and range of such practices. The reason I think it's a rip off because it's not post-release DLC. Resources were set aside for the creation of such content and sold separately. Doesn't matter what the content is. If it's made during the development of the game and released with it, then it belongs in it.

 

The content is some flaming swords, horse armor, and an evil looking throne. How much time and energy do you really think that took away from developing the rest of the game? 

[TurretSyndrome]

This assumes that such content would have existed in the first place even if no pre-order bonuses existed. It seems more likely that this content was created specifically for being a pre-order bonus, and that the alternative would have been no Flames of the Inquisition content at all.

 

I'm not saying that exact content would exist if it wasn't decided upon to be bonus content. But the fact remains that it was worked on during the development process of the actual game. 

 

 

The content is some flaming swords, horse armor, and an evil looking throne. How much time and energy do you really think that took away from developing the rest of the game? 

 

Is that your justification for the practice itself? To answer your question, I'd say a few days at best, then again, I have very little knowledge in such things. By the way, it also includes new creatures, not just armour and weapons, so that adds more to it. 

 

These things always start small.

[Ailith Tycane]

My justification for the practice is that it's completely optional to you as a buyer.

 

I understand the anger and annoyance with day 1 companion DLC because it's more substantial content that feels like it really should have just been in the game, but seeing as how they have said multiple times they won't be doing that, no I don't think it's a huge deal. 

 

You don't have to buy the deluxe edition if you think it's a rip off, and that's really where the discussion should end. 

[Nimlowyn]

The Ask a Game Dev blog tackled the DLC issue back in January, explaining the truth about DLC from a game developer's perspective. It's a brief but detailed read that uses Dragon Age, Mass Effect and KOTOR 2 as examples. If you're interested you can read it here: http://askagamedev.t...e-complete-game  Take from it what you will; I personally found it very illuminating. I by far prefer DLC to expansion packs, so I am pleased with the practice and would like to see it continue. 

 

Earlier this month this issue was tackled again but with a bullet point summary of the above article: http://askagamedev.t...y-of-people-who, which reads: 

 

1.    Developers are professionals who deserve to be paid for their work. We are also humans with a mighty need to eat, take care of families, pay bills, etc.

2.    Games have a budget, and we developers always strive to give you the best game we can for the budget we have allotted. We wouldn’t crunch 60+ hours a week at the office for months to ship a game otherwise.

3.    Anything that would push the game over budget gets cut. All content has to be paid forsomehow. 

4.    All DLC, even Day 1 DLC, has its own separate budget from the project itself.

5.    Therefore, given the above points, it means that there are no circumstances in which the player would ever get the DLC content for “free” unless the publisher eats the cost, no matter how much the customers really really want it. The choice for players is between “Day 1 DLC” and “Nothing”, not “Day 1 DLC” or “Free Content”.

 

I debated whether or not to buy the Deluxe Edition, because I don't actually care too much about the thrones or mounts, but I decided to because the soundtrack alone was worth the extra $10. However, just because the extra expense isn't worth it to you does not mean it is a "rip off". You know what's a rip off? The IRS denying a credit and holding you accountable for a year's worth of penalties and interest, even though you had NO idea your credit was denied because they did not inform you. THAT, my friends, is a rip off. 

[Morroian]

Is that your justification for the practice itself? To answer your question, I'd say a few days at best, then again, I have very little knowledge in such things. By the way, it also includes new creatures, not just armour and weapons, so that adds more to it. 

 

These things always start small.

 

Thin end of the wedge then? You should note that the bonuses for DAI are markedly less than for either DA2 or DAO or the ME games, thus Bioware is pulling back from the practice of including what players would regard as content vital to the game. The argument is then reduced to are the bonuses worth the extra cash and that then comes back to if you don't think its worth it don't buy it cause you really aren't missing out on anything by not buying it. 

[TurretSyndrome]

Again, it's not a matter of whether it is optional content or not. Of course it is optional content. For example, I can fragment a game into three parts and make people pay 30$ for each, so the total potential profit is 90$ and justify it by saying it's optional. Not that something so extreme is happening here, and the presence of the content itself is not the problem. I'm just saying that the practice of working on additional content along with the game, with the time and resources allotted to the game and then releasing it as DLC, is what I see as a problem. 

 

What the content is, and whether it is relevant to the story or vital to the game in any form, is irrelevant.

[CronoDragoon]

 I'm just saying that the practice of working on additional content along with the game, with the time and resources allotted to the game and then releasing it as DLC, is what I see as a problem. 

 

Which doesn't happen as per Nimlowyn's post. So...no problem?

[Morroian]

Again, it's not a matter of whether it is optional content or not. Of course it is optional content. For example, I can fragment a game into three parts and make people pay 30$ for each, so the total potential profit is 90$ and justify it by saying it's optional. Not that something so extreme is happening here, and the presence of the content itself is not the problem. I'm just saying that the practice of working on additional content along with the game, with the time and resources allotted to the game and then releasing it as DLC, is what I see as a problem. 

 

But they aren't working on it with time and resources allotted to the game. As has already been noted the budget for these items would be separate.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

But they aren't working on it with time and resources allotted to the game. As has already been noted the budget for these items would be separate.

Exactamundo. For something like this, it would be taken from a specific marketing budget, not the bigger game budget. If we were to have no DLC/deluxe edition, we'd probably be getting either more marketing, or free posters for pre-ordering (which, as we all probably know, often rip and collect dust).

 

To be honest, I PREFER stuff like this (special editions/day one DLC), to nothing or more advertising. Advertising gives me no incentive (nor has it ever) to buy a game.

[TurretSyndrome]

Which doesn't happen as per Nimlowyn's post. So...no problem?

 

What the developer says may be the case sometimes, but I don't believe that it is always the case. Sorry if I can't take the guy's word for it as proof that all day-1 DLCs are simply "free-time" work.

[CronoDragoon]

What the developer says may be the case sometimes, but I don't believe that it is always the case. Sorry if I can't take the guy's word for it as proof that all day-1 DLCs are simply "free-time" work.

 

Besides the fact that resorting to "he's lying" is a copout, DLCs are not free-time work. They have their own budget. Since that makes intuitive sense anyway, I'm chalking this up to you not accepting that you were wrong about how Day 1 DLCs work.

[TurretSyndrome]

Besides the fact that resorting to "he's lying" is a copout, DLCs are not free-time work. They have their own budget. Since that makes intuitive sense anyway, I'm chalking this up to you not accepting that you were wrong about how Day 1 DLCs work.

 

You're right about one thing. Calling him a liar would be a cop out which is why I didn't say that, I know better than to assume every developer to be a money-grubbing maniac. What I said was that I don't buy what this guy says regarding all Day-1 DLCs. Just because there are few bad apples, doesn't mean the whole batch is rotten. But that doesn't invalidate the existence of the bad apples, it goes both ways. 

 

There's nothing else to go on besides his word, and the possibility of devs taking advantage on customers by splitting content in this day age(which they do), weakens his stance.  You can never guarantee on what's going on behind the curtains, so stop trying to act like his word is gospel and that we should all get behind it.

[CronoDragoon]

There's nothing else to go on besides his word, and the possibility of devs taking advantage on customers by splitting content in this day age(which they do), weakens his stance.  You can never guarantee on what's going on behind the curtains, so stop trying to act like his word is gospel and that we should all get behind it.

 

There's no taking advantage of customers here. There is literally no situation where the content that has been split would have been packaged with the vanilla game, because it is content that was cut for budget reasons. If they don't sell it as DLC, then you simply don't get it. Asking for that content to be packaged with the main game is asking for free content.

 

And why shouldn't I take his word for it? Do you have any evidence whatsoever that what he is saying is wrong, or does not apply to all DLC? Why should I hesitate to believe a game developer when he's talking about how game development works? If you can show me another game dev saying "that isn't the case for X" then I'll change my position accordingly.

[addiction21]

The content is some flaming swords, horse armor, and an evil looking throne. How much time and energy do you really think that took away from developing the rest of the game? 

 

Its the reason why it got delayed for a year.